210 replies to this topic

[Helsbane]

Combine Arty or Air with Enhanced Zoom... I can drop Arty in your back pocket from the other side of the map...

[Wolf Clearwater]

WarHippy, on 20 November 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Statements like these are why your side can't be taken seriously in any of this. Capping is not bad behavior, it is not a bug, it is not a bad mechanic that everyone hates, and it is not something you should be shaming or attacking other people over.

And statements like yours are the reason no one pays attention to your side of it and the argument keeps going on and on. You appear to deliberately misinterpret over and over, without actually making a substantive statement.

Edited by Wolf87535, 20 November 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[WarHippy]

Wolf87535, on 20 November 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

And statements like yours are the reason no one pays attention to your side of it and the argument keeps going on and on. You appear to deliberately misinterpret over and over, without actually making a substantive statement.

Do tell? I'm sure you have a compelling argument that doesn't involve attacking other people, or proclaiming your opinion as fact for everyone involved? We get it, you don't like cap rushes or capping in general, but no matter how many times you proclaim that it is bad behavior you need to understand that blanket statements such as that are wrong.

[Commissar Aku]

WarHippy, on 20 November 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Statements like these are why your side can't be taken seriously in any of this. Capping is not bad behavior, it is not a bug, it is not a bad mechanic that everyone hates, and it is not something you should be shaming or attacking other people over.

I am going to go with you are missing the point, he is talking about groups of people in things like boars heads or dragon slayers base rushing in the first minuet or so and if you aren't on a similar team comp like say in a group there is no way to defend against their attack. Capping isn't all bad, but people abusing a game mechanic is, just like seismic wasn't a bad module but because people abused it, it had to be changed. He is and I am complaining about people abusing the game and making it not fun for the rest of us, and I stick to if you just make capping a secondary objective and killing a primary objective no one will have anything to complain about. there is a difference between a spider or a raven going to cap to draw the team away and a an atlas or a victor base rushing with team, I am also sure that if there was a tonnage balance and a decent ELO system these problems would be few and far between, but alas a team of 12 pugs can't beat a team of 12 people on TS, or really even 2 or 3 different teams on TS, this is what we have problems with. Just today I played 3 games in a row with guys all in assault mechs, base rushing they had 4 assault mechs and our team had 2, they a 6 heavies we had 2, there was no chance from the start for us to win and in fact they stomped us 12 to 0 the last of us died trying to save the cap. 10 mediums and lights and 2 assaults vs a team of heavies and assaults on an assault map, 2 teams of davions vs no 12 random guys, we are complaining because we want a fair game not contentious one sided battles even if it is my side who wins I would rather it be by the skin of my teeth than a 12-0 blood bath.

[Helsbane]

If I may interject here...

The argument that cap rushing at the early stage of the game is griefing or trolling and "ruins the fun" is subjective. On the part of those performing the act, it may be anything from a pure distraction tactic to wanting to p1ss off the enemy team (to get in their head). Personally I do it for both reasons, as well as pull the enemy apart so my team can have easier lines to focus down.

If you don't respond to my cap rush, you lose. I'm sorry that isn't fun for you, but I'm having a blast. There, a little honesty for ya. I sewed the seeds of chaos into your team's heart, and you either died to the last man or got capped out for failing to respond. Game enjoyed on my part. See? The very definition of subjective.

The only thing I'm getting as a response to this seems to be, "but we don't wanna defend!" -or- "it's too hard to get PuGs to help or respond". I'll give you that last one. I've played at times of the day when I was the only body speaking my language out of my whole team. I'll also point out that there are tools to alert people in the command tab that warn using symbols, but these need to be more accessible during combat. The first response, however, is all on you as an individual. You don't wanna defend? Fine. What you have to accept is that there is a large possibility that the other eleven folks on your team all have no desire to defend either (and I thank them for that....), so you lose.

TL:DR - It's not griefing or trolling. Cap rush is a valid tactic that depends on you NOT BEING THERE to work.

[-Muta-]

Please...

Edited by Mutaroc, 21 November 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[WarHippy]

XPH Aku, on 21 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

I am going to go with you are missing the point, he is talking about groups of people in things like boars heads or dragon slayers base rushing in the first minuet or so and if you aren't on a similar team comp like say in a group there is no way to defend against their attack. Capping isn't all bad, but people abusing a game mechanic is, just like seismic wasn't a bad module but because people abused it, it had to be changed. He is and I am complaining about people abusing the game and making it not fun for the rest of us, and I stick to if you just make capping a secondary objective and killing a primary objective no one will have anything to complain about. there is a difference between a spider or a raven going to cap to draw the team away and a an atlas or a victor base rushing with team, I am also sure that if there was a tonnage balance and a decent ELO system these problems would be few and far between, but alas a team of 12 pugs can't beat a team of 12 people on TS, or really even 2 or 3 different teams on TS, this is what we have problems with. Just today I played 3 games in a row with guys all in assault mechs, base rushing they had 4 assault mechs and our team had 2, they a 6 heavies we had 2, there was no chance from the start for us to win and in fact they stomped us 12 to 0 the last of us died trying to save the cap. 10 mediums and lights and 2 assaults vs a team of heavies and assaults on an assault map, 2 teams of davions vs no 12 random guys, we are complaining because we want a fair game not contentious one sided battles even if it is my side who wins I would rather it be by the skin of my teeth than a 12-0 blood bath.

I know he doesn't like cap rushes, but I maintain that there really isn't a difference. Capping is capping, and it needs to stay that way. There is no abuse of a mechanic only a failure on the part of the defenders to protect their assets. If you don't like to get capped plan for it and act accordingly. As for the rest of your statement you are talking about things like weight balance, and pre-mades which have nothing to do with this topic at all.

Edited by WarHippy, 21 November 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Commissar Aku]

Helsbane, on 21 November 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

If I may interject here...

The argument that cap rushing at the early stage of the game is griefing or trolling and "ruins the fun" is subjective. On the part of those performing the act, it may be anything from a pure distraction tactic to wanting to p1ss off the enemy team (to get in their head). Personally I do it for both reasons, as well as pull the enemy apart so my team can have easier lines to focus down.

If you don't respond to my cap rush, you lose. I'm sorry that isn't fun for you, but I'm having a blast. There, a little honesty for ya. I sewed the seeds of chaos into your team's heart, and you either died to the last man or got capped out for failing to respond. Game enjoyed on my part. See? The very definition of subjective.

The only thing I'm getting as a response to this seems to be, "but we don't wanna defend!" -or- "it's too hard to get PuGs to help or respond". I'll give you that last one. I've played at times of the day when I was the only body speaking my language out of my whole team. I'll also point out that there are tools to alert people in the command tab that warn using symbols, but these need to be more accessible during combat. The first response, however, is all on you as an individual. You don't wanna defend? Fine. What you have to accept is that there is a large possibility that the other eleven folks on your team all have no desire to defend either (and I thank them for that....), so you lose.

TL:DR - It's not griefing or trolling. Cap rush is a valid tactic that depends on you NOT BEING THERE to work.

I can defend all I want but 12 pug should never come across teams of guys, ever.It should be trolling however, you even say it should, you said you do it just to **** the other team off is that not the definition of trolling?

[WarHippy]

Helsbane, on 21 November 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

If I may interject here...

The argument that cap rushing at the early stage of the game is griefing or trolling and "ruins the fun" is subjective. On the part of those performing the act, it may be anything from a pure distraction tactic to wanting to p1ss off the enemy team (to get in their head). Personally I do it for both reasons, as well as pull the enemy apart so my team can have easier lines to focus down.

If you don't respond to my cap rush, you lose. I'm sorry that isn't fun for you, but I'm having a blast. There, a little honesty for ya. I sewed the seeds of chaos into your team's heart, and you either died to the last man or got capped out for failing to respond. Game enjoyed on my part. See? The very definition of subjective.

The only thing I'm getting as a response to this seems to be, "but we don't wanna defend!" -or- "it's too hard to get PuGs to help or respond". I'll give you that last one. I've played at times of the day when I was the only body speaking my language out of my whole team. I'll also point out that there are tools to alert people in the command tab that warn using symbols, but these need to be more accessible during combat. The first response, however, is all on you as an individual. You don't wanna defend? Fine. What you have to accept is that there is a large possibility that the other eleven folks on your team all have no desire to defend either (and I thank them for that....), so you lose.

TL:DR - It's not griefing or trolling. Cap rush is a valid tactic that depends on you NOT BEING THERE to work.

You sir win a cookie for being 100% correct.

[WarHippy]

XPH Aku, on 21 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I can defend all I want but 12 pug should never come across teams of guys, ever.It should be trolling however, you even say it should, you said you do it just to **** the other team off is that not the definition of trolling?

Pugs vs pre-mades is not what this topic is about, but I will point out that if there is a pre-made on one team then the other almost always does as well. Being in a pre-made does not gaurantee victory. That being said just because 4+ people rush you base to cap does not mean they are in a group together. I should know I almost exclusively pug and I have 2-4 people follow me all the time when I rush the other teams base. Those are people that chose to support a team member rather than try to be a solo pub star. Cap rushing and capping in general are not trolling no matter how much you dislike it.

[Helsbane]

XPH Aku, on 21 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I can defend all I want but 12 pug should never come across teams of guys, ever.It should be trolling however, you even say it should, you said you do it just to **** the other team off is that not the definition of trolling?

So psychological warfare is now trolling? Doing something to distract the enemy that cannot control his own emotional state is now trolling? Taking 35 tons and parking in a 30m square BEHIND ENEMY LINES, where I'm likely to be torn to shreds if someone does come back (I don't pilot Spiders, so I CAN die) is trolling? ......... It's hard to type when I'm laughing this hard....

As far as PuGs getting placed into matches with four man units, all I can say is wow.... Take the three minutes out of your day to find an open TS server or House. With all the huge flaws present in this game, the only thing that keeps me here is the group I drop with (HHoD 6th Bat) because despite hit reg, broken mechanics, (I could go on for days here), my group is what makes the game fun. Find a group that fits you and get on comms. It makes a world of difference.

[-Muta-]

Once again

[990Dreams]

LISTEN

Sorry. The problem is getting enough firepower to fight, while being able to RTB if you are 1000+m away and in the middle of something. That is what I think the problem is

[Commissar Aku]

Helsbane, on 21 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

So psychological warfare is now trolling? Doing something to distract the enemy that cannot control his own emotional state is now trolling? Taking 35 tons and parking in a 30m square BEHIND ENEMY LINES, where I'm likely to be torn to shreds if someone does come back (I don't pilot Spiders, so I CAN die) is trolling? ......... It's hard to type when I'm laughing this hard....

As far as PuGs getting placed into matches with four man units, all I can say is wow.... Take the three minutes out of your day to find an open TS server or House. With all the huge flaws present in this game, the only thing that keeps me here is the group I drop with (HHoD 6th Bat) because despite hit reg, broken mechanics, (I could go on for days here), my group is what makes the game fun. Find a group that fits you and get on comms. It makes a world of difference.

I shouldn't have to play every single game with a group, I have a clan that I am a part of we play almost every day. Turns out we aren't all blessed by being Davion trolls, who only care about winning and not about playing the game. The definition of trolling is to deliberately **** off the other players, and you flat said that when you take your team to rush base cap it is to deliberately **** off other players. I still think that teams have no business playing against pugs, and ELO balances should solve every thing else, they are good points and no matter how you argue that we should all just play in teams all the time sometimes you are looking for a fast evenly matched game, and not for a big team game that takes time to set up. Also I stick to base rushing is stupid, you get more xp and c-bills not to do it so it is truly trolling both teams to rush it because in a game you make 50,000 to 100,000 more c-bills and about 500 more xp if you fight like a man.
But then you are a Davion, and your choice of house shows your personality, so you will never understand doing things because it is fun for everyone and not just you.

[990Dreams]

Helsbane, on 20 November 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

Combine Arty or Air with Enhanced Zoom... I can drop Arty in your back pocket from the other side of the map...

Not to get too far off the topic, but the question is if the map is flat enough/if you can get that vantage point.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Cap rushing, regardless of method is not deliberately trying to **** people off. It is deliberately trying to win. PGI made it clear that capping is a validmethod to win with and have said or done nothing to imply otherwise. Trying to peer pressure people into believing it is somehow abusing an ingame mechanic is false logic at its finest.

PGI does not agree with you and your tears are akin to blood in the water near sharks. Intoxicating and just encouragimg more capping. TDM is coming. If thats not enough for ya, you should vent to PGI. Because capwarriors are not going to change just because you will it so.

[Wolf Clearwater]

WarHippy, on 21 November 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Do tell? I'm sure you have a compelling argument that doesn't involve attacking other people, or proclaiming your opinion as fact for everyone involved? We get it, you don't like cap rushes or capping in general, but no matter how many times you proclaim that it is bad behavior you need to understand that blanket statements such as that are wrong.

I didn't say I did not like capping in general, at any point. READING, it can empower a person. Try it, you may like it.
Cap rushing is griefing. Get over it. So you found a way to grief within the rules. There are no tears here, only contempt.

Definition of Griefing (from the Urban Dictionary)
1. Purposefully shooting or otherwise sabotaging your teammates in an online game. (nope, cap rushing doesn't do that)
2. In online gaming where one repeatedly killing the same individual or individuals over and over again, or camping their corpse to prevent them from retrieving it, or otherwise performing actions in a game to prevent the player from enjoying the game.
(well cap rushing is deliberately performing actions to prevent all the other players from enjoying the game)
3. In online gaming, someone who takes pleasure in creating grief for an opponent via various "cheap" tactics.
(wow perfect description of cap rushing)

So that makes 2 out of 3. In case you have trouble with math, 2 is more 1, and meeting 1 definition would still make it griefing. Whether PGI currently agrees or not, I don't care. Enough of their players do, and it shows when someone steps on the cap. Your opinion is yours, keep it, I won't change your mind, you won't change mine.

[kiriage]

(well cap rushing is deliberately performing actions to prevent all the other players from enjoying the game)
The use of the word all here I have a problem with

3. In online gaming, someone who takes pleasure in creating grief for an opponent via various "cheap" tactics.
(wow perfect description of cap rushing)
A tactic thats easily countered though..and really no less or more ridiculous than taking two blobs to a predefined point and smashing it out..

.

Edited by kiriage, 22 November 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[XphR]

The faster they rush to cap the closer you should be to your initial deploy.. that just happens to be the target.. If you want to fight at their base, coral them in and drive them back. Want to fight in the middle? Head that way and set up a few lanes and get ready to have someone watching for sweepers. Stop basecap in the first three or four minutes? Set up your firelanes closer to base and push them out as you gain ... dun dun dun battlefield information.

[Tekadept]

I just don't understand all this QQ when you are playing Assault. The name in itself should say everything. ASSAULT, you are ASSAULTING the enemy base (Cap) that is the purpose of the game mode.

For some reason people get Assault mixed up with "Team deathmatch".

Don't like assault and want Team Deathmatch? speak to PGI about it, don't QQ on the forums when people don't want to play by your "Gentlemens rules"