37 replies to this topic

[cerealspiller]

A few Problems with MWO:

Mechs die too fast
High Alpha to win
Some hitboxes greater than others

Heat Scale Penalties would fix all of this in a pinch.

Here's how:


Crosshair Shake Penalty
Add 3-4 intensities of crosshair shake to the Heat Scale. This alone would fix just about everything. The greatest intensity could even be less than what the old Jump Jet shake was. The shaking would make consistent, pin-point alpha strikes a thing of the past. Mechs would have greater lifespans in matches as a result because players would instinctivly wait longer between shots. This would even make brawling super viable because shots would still be more accurate at closer ranges. Crosshair Shake Penalty FTW.

Torso Twist/Turn Radius/Acceleration/Deceleration Penalty
Does this need an explination? No. The hotter the mech, the more sluggish it is to move around.

Who was it that said the easiest solution is the correct one?

[Khobai]

Why not just increase the cooldown on weapons? has the same effect of making players wait longer between shots without having to waste PGI's time to code a horrible crosshair shake system into the game.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 September 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Why not just increase the cooldown on weapons? has the same effect of making players wait longer between shots without having to waste PGI's time to code a horrible crosshair shake system into the game.

That seems to just encourage hillhumping or "peektarting" even more and discourage brawling outside of hit-and-run strikes. (Note: I'm not agreeing with the OP, I'm just pointing out an issue with your proposal).

Edited by FupDup, 29 September 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[cerealspiller]

Khobai, on 29 September 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Why not just increase the cooldown on weapons? has the same effect of making players wait longer between shots without having to waste PGI's time to code a horrible crosshair shake system into the game.

Increasing weapon cooldown forces players to wait. With HSP's, players have to make a descision. This also makes CoolShots very valuable.

[Khobai]

Quote

That seems to just encourage hillhumping or "peektarting" even more and discourage brawling outside of hit-and-run strikes.

I dont disagree. But my point was that my suggestion accomplishes the same thing without the complication of adding heat penalties and crosshair shake, which nobody likes, which is why it was reduced on jumpjetting.

Quote

Increasing weapon cooldown forces players to wait. With HSP's, players have to make a descision. This also makes CoolShots very valuable.

I dont see how its a decision. Even slight crosshair shake is going to make your weapons miss the location youre aiming for. There would still be no reason not to wait, except at point blank range. Firing shots that all hit the same location is magnitudes better than firing shots that spread out, even if the more accurate shots fire slower.

Edited by Khobai, 29 September 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[FupDup]

One more thing that I just remembered is that lock-on weapons like LRMs and Streaks would be able to bypass reticule shake due to their "autoaim" nature, so they wouldn't be penalized very much.

[ICEFANG13]

I suppose I would vote yes, although I don't like the specifics of the question, I would like a much stricter heat scale with more penalties as it goes up, nothing random though (like 10% ammo explosion) just make it like 10-20-30% decreased speed or increase crosshair movement by 10-20-30%. I think that would slow down the game in a methodical and good way. Better than doubling armor or messing with individual weapons (which of course every thing probably would need adjustments after this).

[cerealspiller]

Maybe I'm using the wrong word. How about "Crosshair Sway"

The "Sway" doesn't have to be violent. Like using a sniper rifle in any FPS but instead of pressing a button to hold your breath (ie. steady the shot), you would just have to wait for your heat to go down to, say 25 or 30%.

Also, you wont need to be point blank to make your shots counts. Ofcourse, at longer ranges it will be harder to hit even large targets when you have (even slight) crosshair sway. Within 300meteres, It would be very simple to keep your crosshairs on target (even with more sway). You may not be hitting the CT (or whatever else you may be aiming for) but damage will still be put on target.

[cerealspiller]

ICEFANG13, on 29 September 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

... (which of course every thing probably would need adjustments after this).

You mean if they implement HSP's, all weapons would need to be adjusted?

I don't think so. Players would either try to time their shots, get in close for better accuracy, or rebuild loadouts for better heat efficency (which would mean decreasing their alpha)

[MustrumRidcully]

FupDup, on 29 September 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

That seems to just encourage hillhumping or "peektarting" even more and discourage brawling outside of hit-and-run strikes. (Note: I'm not agreeing with the OP, I'm just pointing out an issue with your proposal).

Yes, that is pretty much a problem with slowing down rate of fire.
It might be better than to just lower damage per shot instead if you just want to slow down the fight.

I can see scenarios where lowering ROF is a good idea. As you know (and dislike? ), I wouldn't mind removing group fire all together and replacing it with mandatory, server enforced chain-fire (with variable chain-fire delays). I think such a system would basically need slower rates of fire, since if you have to fire every gun separately, that's a lot of shots that all need their time to be reasonably accurate, and a lot less time for the fun defensive tactics like torso twisting.

But in short: NO heat scale penalties don't solve everything. Not every weapon is designed to be a heat monster. Exhibit A: Gauss Rifle. So balancing convergence/alpha strikes merely with heat will fall short.

There are other good reasons to have heat penalties, but you don't need to try them to also cover this issue.

[The Boz]

I dislike the screen shake penalty, but lower speed/acceleration could work...

[cerealspiller]

HSP's would not reduce ROF any little bit.

Mustrum - I have yet to see a mech only equip a single gauss rifle. Besides, PGI fixed the Gauss/PPC combo with the gauss charge up. A single Gauss rifle would not be viable in the current high alpha meta. If everyone suffered HSP's then a single Gauss would not be such a bad loadout.

Boz - im not suggesting (seizure inducing) screen shake. Im proposing slight crosshair sway

Edited by cerealspiller, 29 September 2013 - 10:12 AM.

[The Boz]

I'd rather have an expanded cone of fire than shake. It is pretty much impossible to change your aim when your screen is having a fit, whereas the other method would only make it harder to hit instead.

[cerealspiller]

This Boz, on 29 September 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I'd rather have an expanded cone of fire than shake. It is pretty much impossible to change your aim when your screen is having a fit, whereas the other method would only make it harder to hit instead.

The problem with a Cone of Fire is that people want their pinpoint accuracy. HSP's would still allow for pinpoint hits and it would add instability to shots in rapid succession (pretty much a cone of fire).

Like I said, not seizure screen shake but rather slight crosshair sway.

Exampled above is a FPS Sniper Rifle reference. When you aim a sniper rifle in any FPS, there is a swaying motion on the crosshair. You can typically press a key to hold your breath and steady the shot. In the case for MWO (Not just sniping but for shooting in general), below 25 to 30% heat you have a steady shot but above that you will have crosshair sway. Possibly 3 to 4 intensities of crosshair swaying.

[The Boz]

Why reduce accuracy AND induce motion sickness if you can just reduce accuracy alone?

[ArmageddonKnight]

Sorry, iv seen many good ideas on this forum, and alot of them viable. but this is not one of them. There are far better ways to sort this game out. Without other changes this idea on its own would completly destroy most energy weapon builds, and force brawling even more so than it is. The current heat scale penalties make running hot almost manditory, so yea, i dont see this working.

[MustrumRidcully]

cerealspiller, on 29 September 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

HSP's would not reduce ROF any little bit.

Mustrum - I have yet to see a mech only equip a single gauss rifle. Besides, PGI fixed the Gauss/PPC combo with the gauss charge up. A single Gauss rifle would not be viable in the current high alpha meta. If everyone suffered HSP's then a single Gauss would not be such a bad loadout.

I think it would still be, the charge up still screws it up.

And the Dual Gauss Rifle builds? Well, they don't need to worry about heat penalties, and they basically only work when you alpha them in the first place, because trying to manage two charge-ups - forget about that.

[cerealspiller]

Most FPS have bobbing crosshairs while runnng. This does not make people sick.

Shooting a sniper rifle in a FPS does not make people sick.

HSP destroyes energy builds? It's not very often that you can keep a large laser on one enemy componemt for the full duration of the beam. How would adding crosshair sway be any different?

Forced brawling is a bad thing? Standing out in the open when 5 enemies are shooting at you is a bad thing. Pacing yourself in a brawl, timing your shots, good aim, and having backup/teamwork is a good thing.

Forcing players to choose between slower more accurate shots and faster less accurate shots is a great balance.

Shoot me in the head but here comes the TT reference.

TT battletech use a heat scale to great effect with increasing penalties for high heat. This kept players from alpha striking every turn with consistent hit chances. Yes, TT had random hit locations. In MWO, the same effect can be achieved with HSP's EXACTLY like in TT. Players can keep their pin point accuracy by slowing down shots and players can still brawl like crazy but with reduced accuracy.

[w0rm]

Random is bad.

[The Boz]

Bobbing crosshairs while running != drunken cockpit while standing still and shooting at an enemy. ESPECIALLY since this game already has cockpit bobbing.