39 replies to this topic

[Birddog FAC]

Ok so i know this topic has come up multiple times on the forums but i at least don't feel there is a clear answer to the issue even though I understand the argument of MGs being over powered in MWO if implemented as it is in the board game and just felt i would like to throw an idea up about an option and get an idea if others feel as i do or if it should just be left to die.

Ok so as i avid light and medium mech pilot i believe that MGs as they are, are a detriment to lights and meds who would use them in game. I really do think that some mg type weapon should be introduced that can be used successfully as an offensive weapon as there are multiple chassis that rely on ballistics but are not heavy enough to really use ballistics without major sacrifice.

So Here is my simple idea:

Name: Heavy MG (its in the Battle tech rules for those who are interested but this HMG is adjusted for MWO)
Weight: 1 Ton Each
Damage: 0.5 pts per shell
Rate of Fire: .2 seconds (5rnds a second)
Ammo: 160 rds/ton
Heat: .25 = 1.25 heat a second per gun
Range: 90 meters
Adjustment: 10% jam rate with 1.5 second jam time.

so for those 4 mg mechs it would be 4 tons plus ammo so probably between 6 and 8 tons per mech for combat load and a total of 6 heat a second.

10% jam rate would lock up guns while heat would still build as a constant and be enough for most light mechs to decide between the number of HMGs and Heat efficiency. also the lower ammo count would help balance them MGs along with their short range.. also it would be a viable option for other mechs when brawling. though

anyway that's my idea.

Please give useful comments trolling helps nothing but i don't have an issue if you disagree. with me

[Alek Ituin]

What we really need is MG Arrays. 2 tons per, 2 crit slots, except it acts like 4 MG's for the use of a single ballistic hardpoint. Uses the same MG ammo, 4x higher DAM than a single MG, but 4x higher ammo consumption.

It could be another option to the HMG, both produce .25 HPS, but the MG Array wont jam. It just puts out less damage then the HMG and uses more ammo, but is massively more reliable.


Plus, imagine the friggin dakka from a Jagermech using 6 MG Arrays. That's 24 individual MG's firing, using something like 240 rounds per second. You'd burn through 1 ton of MG ammo in a little under 10 seconds with that.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 29 September 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[General Taskeen]

If I had my way,

it would be

LMG - .2 Damage - 600 Ammo Per Ton - 0.2 CD
MG - .4 Damage - 400 Ammo Per Ton - 0.25 CD
HMG - .6 Damage - 200 Ammo Per Ton - 0.3 CD

and the MG given a ballistic shell, not laser programming.

Works out to be:

2xLMG - 2DPS
2xMG - 3.2DPS (now approaching AC/2 DPS)
2xHMG - 4DPS

The more MG's, the faster 1 ton of ammo is expended. 1 ton of MG ammo is gone in 7 seconds with 12 MG's (The Piranha).

Alek Ituin, on 29 September 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Plus, imagine the friggin dakka from a Jagermech using 6 MG Arrays. That's 24 individual MG's firing, using something like 240 rounds per second.

Not possible to fit 6 MG Array's. An MG "array" is a fitting that couples 2 or 4 LMG's, MG's, or HMG's together. Meaning 1 Machine Gun Array that slots 4 MG's takes up 5 critical spaces and tonnage for the "MGA" mechanism and tonnage for each MG.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 September 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Krivvan]

General Taskeen, on 29 September 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

and the MG given a ballistic shell, not laser programming.

I don't think they or you want to have the server having to track every single MG shell. You'd break the game every time you fired one.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I think they are good where they are at the moment they strip armour it just takes a while as its not really an anti mech weapon, they tear up internals though.

[General Taskeen]

Krivvan, on 30 September 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

I don't think they or you want to have the server having to track every single MG shell. You'd break the game every time you fired one.

Does the game break every time an AC/2 shell is fired?

[Amsro]

Shameless plug.

Mini AC/2 as is it should be. try it on your TEST SERVER!@!!!!

Damage - 2
Range - 90m
Ammo -? 250-500 ? way less then 2000 @ 2 damage
Heat - start at Zero. Scale up balance as needed.

Drop the cone of fire, remove the crit bonus and change from a hit scan to a ballistic weapon.

So damn simple, I don't get why this can't be tried.

[Alek Ituin]

Amsro, on 30 September 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Shameless plug.

Mini AC/2 as is it should be. try it on your TEST SERVER!@!!!!

Damage - 2
Range - 90m
Ammo -? 250-500 ? way less then 2000 @ 2 damage
Heat - start at Zero. Scale up balance as needed.

Drop the cone of fire, remove the crit bonus and change from a hit scan to a ballistic weapon.

So damn simple, I don't get why this can't be tried.

Soooooo...

Rotary Autocannon 2? Because that's already a weapon in BT.

[stjobe]

Alek Ituin, on 30 September 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Rotary Autocannon 2? Because that's already a weapon in BT.

You know what's also a weapon in BT? The MG, and it does as much damage per turn as the AC/2. The RAC, on the other hand, does up to six times the damage of an AC/2 (it can fire a maximum of six times, doing 2 damage per shot, although every shot after the first has an increasing chance of jamming the thing).

The AC/2 in MWO really is a RAC on steroids; it does 20 times the damage it does in BT, with no chance of jamming.

[Carrioncrows]

This will be my last MG thread. I've bleed enough IQ on this subject.

Dmg: 0.2 dmg (2 DPS) at ranges 0m-90m and 0.1 dmg (1 DPS) at ranges from 90m - 200m
ROF: 10 rounds a sec.
Ammo: 200 rounds per half ton and 400 rounds per full ton.

The higher DPS is equalized by the intense ammo usage.

You need anywhere between 2 and 3 tons of ammo per weapon to last the match. Which just so happens to be about 1/2 the weight of an AC2 + ammo.

Good in small numbers but in larger numbers the ammo consumption rate starts getting out of hand and where it gets more efficient weight wise to simply pack a AC2, not to mention the range and critical slots.

1 MG + Ammo = 3.5 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.
2 MG + Ammo = 7 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.
4 MG + ammo = 14 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.

[CrashieJ]

MGs are fine... though I would UP the ROF and Increase the firecone


Light MG array: less damage, longer range, tighter cone
Heavy MG array: more damage, shorter range, larger cone

[FupDup]

Carrioncrows, on 30 September 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

---

1 MG + Ammo = 3.5 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.
2 MG + Ammo = 7 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.
4 MG + ammo = 14 tons = 120 secs of fire (2 minutes) - 80 dmg per ton.

Where is a Spider or Cicada supposed to pull 14 tons from? Even the Raven would have to make a lot of sacrifices to fit in 7 tons, it's outclassed by most other lights enough as it is. I think the problem with your suggestion is that you're trying to balance Machine Guns around boats like the Jagermech--mechs that don't need to use the weapon in the first place--instead of mechs like the Spider or Cicada (or Raven 4X) that depend on the weapon for their livelihood. Those lighter mechs are the baseline that MGs need to be designed around, not Jagertrolls.

MGs are not supposed to cost you an arm and a leg to carry, they're supposed to be an afterthought weapon (similar to ML or SL) that can be slapped on if you have spare weight or can't make good use of larger ballistics (lights and some mediums). I'd set the DPS for MGs to around ~1.2 (~0.12 damage per bullet) and set ammo to something around 1500 per ton or not even touch it at all. The weapon is already balanced by low range, constant firing = spread out damage, and 100% uptime (can't defensively twist without losing your DPS); and most of those disadvantages are a lot larger for the Jagertroll than Cicadas and what not. I'd also get rid of the crit-seeking bonuses as compensation.

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Iacov]

i was always enjoying mgs...even back in the days when they were utterly useless
they were pretty strong in between...
am still enjoying them where they are right now...once you tear off the armor you have quite a nice damage source

[NRP]

MGs are troll weapons, nothing more. The mechs who survive the brawl can look forward to that unkillable spider with MGs who gleefully swoops in and ravages the damaged survivors. I don't mind MGs on larger, slower mechs because you can deal with them. But MG spiders with their wonky hit box issues? That's too much.

In fact, I'm looking at building a Streaktaro whose sole purpose is to kill every light on the enemy team, especially those damn spiders. If PGI isn't going to do anything about them, I guess the players will have to.

[HammerSwarm]

It was pretty good for one patch and is now less than again, I don't want stupid critical strikes buffed I want to be able to eat armor up when I am standing on an atlas.

[Marmon Rzohr]

MGs need to be reworked as Light-killer weapons IMHO (that would also make the most sense since the only mechs that have ballistic slots they can't really use for anything other than MGs are light mechs). Kinda like a ballistic version of SSRMs (no idea how to make this happen though - perhaps bonus damage to lights ?). They were never meant to be used against heavy armor. Either way, MGs make much more sense on the table top since they are meant as defence agains infantry, battle armor and other light targets.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 30 September 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

FupDup, on 30 September 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Where is a Spider or Cicada supposed to pull 14 tons from? Even the Raven would have to make a lot of sacrifices to fit in 7 tons, it's outclassed by most other lights enough as it is. I think the problem with your suggestion is that you're trying to balance Machine Guns around boats like the Jagermech--mechs that don't need to use the weapon in the first place--instead of mechs like the Spider or Cicada (or Raven 4X) that depend on the weapon for their livelihood. Those lighter mechs are the baseline that MGs need to be designed around, not Jagertrolls.

MGs are not supposed to cost you an arm and a leg to carry, they're supposed to be an afterthought weapon (similar to ML or SL) that can be slapped on if you have spare weight or can't make good use of larger ballistics (lights and some mediums). I'd set the DPS for MGs to around ~1.2 (~0.12 damage per bullet) and set ammo to something around 1500 per ton or not even touch it at all. The weapon is already balanced by low range, constant firing = spread out damage, and 100% uptime (can't defensively twist without losing your DPS); and most of those disadvantages are a lot larger for the Jagertroll than Cicadas and what not. I'd also get rid of the crit-seeking bonuses as compensation.

Sorry but you can't have good damage, no heat and nearly endless ammo.

If you can't afford the weight, why don't you practice fire control like every other weapon in the game.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...08d9264763e15ac

There ya go. XL255, x3 jumpjets, x4 mguns and a medium laser with x5 tons of ammo. My personal build would have x6 tons of ammo cause i wouldn't max the armor.

That gives you 50 seconds of fire at a whopping 8 dps with just the Mguns not including the medium laser and a maximum of 400 damage for all of the ammo.

Now that is YOUR choice to run an MAX XL engine with the MAX amount of weapons.

The smarter move would be to back the engine down to a 225 XL with 2 jumpjets and run 8 tons of ammo which gives you 80 seconds of fire.

The AC2 chews through a ton of ammo at 37.5 seconds.
The MG chews through a ton of ammo at 40 seconds.

The AC20 chews through a ton of ammo in 28 seconds.

This isn't unreasonable.

Just because the mgun weighs 1/2 ton shouldn't automatically make it a freebie gun.

You want a legit weapon, expect Legit pro's and con's, and "I" for one would rather have it deal "DAMAGE" and be useful than fire until the end of time and be useless.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 30 September 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Spheroid]

I really hope they improve machine guns soon. The Locust is two weeks away and for the first time ever I might have to level a mech through capping.

[FupDup]

Carrioncrows, on 30 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Sorry but you can't have good damage, no heat and nearly endless ammo.

That "good damage" is only around ~0.12 per bullet, and gets spread out all over the place due the nature of it firing really fast, the user moving really fast, and maybe even CoF if we leave that in. No heat is overrated when we have such high capacity and low dissipation, and most other ballistics are cool too (except AC/2 and dual AC/20). Nearly endless ammo could work against the user if ammo explosions happened 100% of the time instead of just 10%.

Carrioncrows, on 30 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

If you can't afford the weight, why don't you practice fire control like every other weapon in the game.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...08d9264763e15ac

There ya go. XL255, x3 jumpjets, x4 mguns and a medium laser with x5 tons of ammo. My personal build would have x6 tons of ammo cause i wouldn't max the armor.

That gives you 50 seconds of fire at a whopping 8 dps with just the Mguns not including the medium laser and a maximum of 400 damage for all of the ammo.

Now that is YOUR choice to run an MAX XL engine with the MAX amount of weapons.

The smarter move would be to back the engine down to a 225 XL with 2 jumpjets and run 8 tons of ammo which gives you 80 seconds of fire.


The AC2 chews through a ton of ammo at 37.5 seconds.
The MG chews through a ton of ammo at 40 seconds.

The AC20 chews through a ton of ammo in 28 seconds.

This isn't unreasonable.

The AC/20 deals pretty high pinpoint damage (highest currently in the game) to a single target location, and has more range on it too. It also is much better for hit-and-hide fast strikes due to not being rapid-fire. Additionally, there are no mechs in the game that are dependent on the AC/20: any mech that can fit one can use any other ballistic (or multiple) in place of it. Apples 'n' oranges.

Carrioncrows, on 30 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Just because the mgun weighs 1/2 ton shouldn't automatically make it a freebie gun.

You want a legit weapon, expect Legit pro's and con's, and "I" for one would rather have it deal "DAMAGE" and be useful than fire until the end of time and be useless.

100% uptime, spread-out damage, ammo explosions and short range aren't legit cons? Also, the arbitrary value of 1.2 DPS counts as "damage" in my book.


You're basically turning the MG into a "one night stand" (or, if you prefer, one trick pony) weapon that suits troll boats like Jagers better than the mechs that were designed to carry small numbers of the weapon.

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

FupDup, on 30 September 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

That "good damage" is only around ~0.12 per bullet, and gets spread out all over the place due the nature of it firing really fast, the user moving really fast, and maybe even CoF if we leave that in. No heat is overrated when we have such high capacity and low dissipation, and most other ballistics are cool too (except AC/2 and dual AC/20). Nearly endless ammo could work against the user if ammo explosions happened 100% of the time instead of just 10%.

The damage needs to be high enough that it's viable in a singular nature. If you have to pack 4-6 MGuns to get them to do decent damage (Boat them) then that's a bad weapon design.

Yes the Spider-5K and the Cicada-3C have lots of ballistics slots which can make them powerful enough to "COMPETE" with other lights of the same class. As it should be, but it should also be viable for the Raven-4X, Blackjacks, Hunchbacks, CN9's, and everything else in this game including the Atlas to be able to pack MG's and have them be a viable weapon.

Not just a boating or troll weapon but a legitimate "Low weight" ballistic option.

Quote

The AC/20 deals pretty high pinpoint damage (highest currently in the game) to a single target location, and has more range on it too. It also is much better for hit-and-hide fast strikes due to not being rapid-fire. Additionally, there are no mechs in the game that are dependent on the AC/20: any mech that can fit one can use any other ballistic (or multiple) in place of it. Apples 'n' oranges.

You wouldn't take 1 ton of ammo for any other AC weapon why should the MG be different? It shouldn't.

DPS is DPS, just the MG has a lighter weight.

My Spider-5K currently uses a LB10-X (x3 tons of ammo) and a medium laser, tons of choices out there. Expand your horizons. Saying these mechs can only use the MG so we have to shoe horn the MG into a boating weapon is an extremely bad way to balance a weapon.

Just like heat scale, weapons should be viable as a singular weapon but the more you pack the bigger the penalty you start taking.

Quote

100% uptime, spread-out damage, ammo explosions and short range aren't legit cons? Also, the arbitrary value of 1.2 DPS counts as "damage" in my book.

Not if you want a weapon that actually deals damage. The mgun should be a pointblank inefficient raw DPS dump. 2.0 DPS is where it's at.

I could care less about the crit system, what I want is 2 DPS versus armor. The ammo is the way to balance it, making it good in small numbers but you begin to pay a penalty when attempting to boat it.