17 replies to this topic

[Geek Verve]

Hello. I've been playing the various trial mech classes, and I've come to a few conclusions:

• I'm not all that into LRM fighting. Maintaining a lock on a target long enough to hit it is difficult for me, and I tend to just stand still when I'm launching (not a good idea).
  
• The assault class mechs are just not nimble enough for my liking. Numerous times a single light has really worked me over, because I just couldn't turn/maneuver well enough to get any sort of bead on him.
  
• I really enjoy the gauss rifle.
  
• Being as new to the game as I am, the more armor I can pile on, the better.

So, I've decided to look at a heavy class mech - the Catapult CPLT-K2 in particular. It looks like it would allow me to swivel the torso enough to keep me in CQB. Please take a look at the potential build here: CPLT-K2



A couple of questions:

• How many DHS's are enough? Is it simply a case of more is better?
  
• Are there any ramifications to having "DYNAMIC STRUCTURE" crit slots end up in the arms as opposed to a more internal location?
  
• I've got one unused ballistic hardpoint, but I'm full up from a tonnage standpoint. Should I consider working anything else in (machine gun, I guess)? Would it be worth giving up armor for?

Thanks.

Edited by Geek Verve, 29 September 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Modo44]

Geek Verve, on 29 September 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

How many DHS's are enough? Is it simply a case of more is better?

In general, yes, the more the better. Over 40% heat dissipation in smurfy's mechlab is what you want to aim for. Over 50% means virtually continuous fire, which rarely happens. At this point, you'd want more weapons/ammo/speed/jump jets instead of heatsinks.

Geek Verve, on 29 September 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Are there any ramifications to having "DYNAMIC STRUCTURE" crit slots end up in the arms as opposed to a more internal location?

The dynamic structure just fills whatever place is available. The more actual equipment in a mech part, the more you spread critical hits. That is why you want e.g. Double Heatsinks with your most valuable weapons or ammo -- so that a critical hit has a high chance of not damaging the important stuff. (The crit percentages are calculated based on the slots used.)

Geek Verve, on 29 September 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

I've got one unused ballistic hardpoint, but I'm full up from a tonnage standpoint. Should I consider working anything else in (machine gun, I guess)? Would it be worth giving up armor for?

Most K2 builds use dual [insert favourite gun type], so you might want to start with that. Yes, dual Gauss Rifle also works. Your build looks like it will fare better in close combat, though. BTW, by stripping some armor, you can take one more heatsink and another ton of Gauss ammo. Try this.

Edited by Modo44, 29 September 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

I wouldn't go with this build. The gauss is with the current nerf less suited for brawling and more kind of a very specialized sniping weapon. Your MPLs are, however, close distance weapons perfectly suited for hunting lights or brwaling fights. Thats is simply putting two world together that do not fit to each other.

As suggested by Modo44 a dual gauss build is a perfect sniping build. My favourite K2 brawler loadout is 2xAC10,4xML, XL300. You could also go for 2xUAC5 or 2x PPC/ERPPC combined with MLs etc.

[Denolven]

Geek Verve, on 29 September 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

How many DHS's are enough? Is it simply a case of more is better?

Yes, but heatsinks usually have a low priority, so they are more or less fillers. Except when you build a mech based on dps and hot maps (I have one mech with 21 double heatsinks). Your heat dissipation basically defines your sustainable dps. As a sniper, you don't need dps. As a brawler you do. It all depends on what you want to do.

Quote

Are there any ramifications to having "DYNAMIC STRUCTURE" crit slots end up in the arms as opposed to a more internal location?

No.

Quote

I've got one unused ballistic hardpoint, but I'm full up from a tonnage standpoint. Should I consider working anything else in (machine gun, I guess)?

Normally you pick a role (sniper, brawler, hunter etc.) and then use proper weaponry. You picked a mix of long range and short range, which is unusual, but not that bad. Especially because you are new, so you probably don't know which role suits you best.
My advice: Try your build, it's not that bad. Get some experience with it, and then:

• throw out the things you used never or rarely
  
• take more of the stuff you always used, or could have used and missed
  
• try similar versions (normal lasers instead of pulse, autocannons instead of Gauss etc.)

Quote

Would it be worth giving up armor for?

As always, the answer is: that depends. If your plan is to stay in relative safety, or if you notice nobody ever shoots this or that part of your Mech, then yes, no reason to waste tonnage with armor that's never used. There is no theoretical optimum, it all depends on what you actually go through in your everyday battle.
At the end of a battle, look how your paperdoll looks like. Take more armor on the red parts and less armor on the yellow/undamaged parts.
Modo44 has suggested lowering arm and leg armor, and for good reason. The Cats torso is so easy to shoot that most people don't bother with the legs. But better verify that yourself, because due to ELO, your opponents might think different than his .

In the end, it's all determined by your personal playstyle and what your everyday opponents do. Who knows, you might actually become really good whith pulse laser Cats. I have seen weirder Mechs rule.

Edited by Denolven, 30 September 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Greyrook]

As others have said, it's worth a try but this is a pretty "advanced" build in that it uses two specific role weapons from different roles. Gauss is pretty much a sniper-only weapon now and pulse lasers are generally used by strikers for their rapid damage but high heat. If you do want to try to stick with it, I'd suggest this modification http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2090570488a1482 as max armor never really gets used on a K2. 384 points is the max I would ever put on a cat as the large CT is a much more attractive target for your enemies, you'll very rarely get legged outside of random chance.

If you find that it's a little tougher to use than you expected, the popular K2 builds tend to be dual ballistics (a pair of AC/10s for example) and I think you'd have an easier time with one of those.

[Aym]

I've heard good things about 2 PPC's and 2 UAC5...

[Eldane]

Personally, I would drop 2 of those mpls to normal meds and grab 2 more tons of guass ammo.

Also reallocate some armor to your front ct.

I ran my cats with a 285xl which can make it much easier to try out some of the harder hitting combos and still moves pretty decent.

[Arete]

If you like gauss, I would do it like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9c57da2da95d86

The gausses will be your primary weapon, the two MLs are there just as backups. Some armor left in the ears just so you can soak up some damage with them.

[Modo44]

Aym, on 30 September 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

I've heard good things about 2 PPC's and 2 UAC5...

2xPPC+2xAC5 or 2xLL+2xUAC5. 2xPPC+2xUAC5 will get too hot and run low on ammo at the same time. You need an assault for that.

[mark v92]

this might work for dual guass
K2
you can strip off 1 or 2 ML for extra tons of ammo if you like

[Geek Verve]

I should clarify my reasoning for the gauss + 4xMPL. I guess it boils down to wanting a bit of the "best of both worlds". As I mentioned, I really like the GR for distance damage and less mobile close targets. However, when I find myself in a hectic CQB, the GR is not nearly as useful in my hands, due to the charging mechanic, so I want something that is effective in that scenario (the MPL's).

It *would* be nice to have all my weapons at my disposal in the scenario I most often find myself, but I don't know if I would be happy with 2x something else that I could squeeze in for the same tonnage where my ballistic hardpoints are concerned. How are the AC/5's at medium range? I assume they would also be useful in close?

Regarding the choice of the Catapult: I've just recently come to appreciate the higher armor on the heavies, so I'm not often running from a skirmish anymore, screaming like a little girl, like I do in my Kintaro. However, I'm still not what one would call a great pilot. Torso twist is a big deal to me, hence the XL300. Also, in the Dragon trial mech, I too often found myself firing into my cover when I would pop up/out to get a shot in on a target. I think getting my guns up around my ears will help that. Question though, how do Cats take a beating compared to other mechs with a similar armor rating? I'm aware of the more exposed cockpit, so I won't trim any armor from there.

Thanks for all the great advice so far!
GV

[Eaerie]

From your initial statement i wouldn't get a K2 at all. Its a great mech but if you plan on eliting it you are gonna HATE the other varients which tend to be more missle oriented.
I would recommend the Jager-S though, has a good mix of ballistics and energy, a lot of the weapon hardpoints sit high in the arms like the K2 and the other varients are more geared towards ballistics, with the exception of the JM6-A which has 4 missle slots. (i use 2AC2's and 4SSRM2 on mine)
but all the JM6's can fit dual guass, dual AC20's or ACxx and a mix of other weapons real well.

[Geek Verve]

Eaerie, on 30 September 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

From your initial statement i wouldn't get a K2 at all. Its a great mech but if you plan on eliting it you are gonna HATE the other varients which tend to be more missle oriented.
I would recommend the Jager-S though, has a good mix of ballistics and energy, a lot of the weapon hardpoints sit high in the arms like the K2 and the other varients are more geared towards ballistics, with the exception of the JM6-A which has 4 missle slots. (i use 2AC2's and 4SSRM2 on mine)
but all the JM6's can fit dual guass, dual AC20's or ACxx and a mix of other weapons real well.

Call me crazy (and you would be at least partially accurate in doing so in any case), but there are some mechs I just tend not to give much consideration to purely based on aesthetics. The Jaeger is one. No offense to those who like it, but to me it just seems to have a goofy Frankenstein look about it. That's probably something others actually like about it. /shrug

I just read a bit about "eliting" a chassis line, and it does look pretty awesome. I'm going to give that a second thought, though I'm still leaning toward the Cat. All other things being equal, I'll play my best in something I enjoy piloting the most.

[tib3r]

Geek Verve, on 30 September 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Call me crazy (and you would be at least partially accurate in doing so in any case), but there are some mechs I just tend not to give much consideration to purely based on aesthetics. The Jaeger is one. No offense to those who like it, but to me it just seems to have a goofy Frankenstein look about it. That's probably something others actually like about it. /shrug

I just read a bit about "eliting" a chassis line, and it does look pretty awesome. I'm going to give that a second thought, though I'm still leaning toward the Cat. All other things being equal, I'll play my best in something I enjoy piloting the most.

You either play to win with the absolute best performer or you play because you like something that looks cool and don't give a poop about how it looks.

Personally, I hate anything and everything that resembles and LRM boat AKA a cat, but, you play what performs the best if you want to be among the best.

[Denolven]

Fun comes first. Whithin those limits, it's perfectly fine to max it out. People have trouble when I tell them my personal limitations because most people only see those two extremes: playing to win, or playing for teh lulz. So they don't understand why I want both.
I say chose something cool and then max it out in any way you can.

Geek Verve, on 30 September 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I should clarify my reasoning for the gauss + 4xMPL. I guess it boils down to wanting a bit of the "best of both worlds".

And that's perfectly fine. As I said, your build is not as bad as some people tell you. Because in the end it depends on how you use it. If you end up killing stuff with those lasers, why should you take them off? If you spend the long range times (before all the brawling starts) with some sniping, why should you take it off?

You will need some experience to fine tune it, though. Maybe you get heat problems so you'll try ML instead of MPL. Or maybe you will reduce them to 2 and take a bit more ammo, or whatever. The basic idea works well - most people have a mixed set of weapons for a reason. Highly specialized builds with only one weapon system for one kind of situation is best kept for organized teams, not for random matches.

Obviously you can't do both sniping and close combat at the same time. So the fine tuning depends on what situations you find yourself more often in. 4 MPL are more than dedicated snipers usually use, because they use as much tonnage on sniper stuff as possible. But if you are not a sniper, but a hybrid sniper-fighter, or even a fighter that just wants a long range option, your build is perfectly fine for a prototype. The detail adjustments will follow when you got some fighting experience and see what problems you get often.
Example: I have a medium mech that runs around with only 21 leg armor. People can call me crazy all day long; doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly fine for how I play that particular mech build. I reduced it step by step until I had the feeling that I shouldn't go lower. In about 100 games I got legged only once. And that was when I tried 17 leg armor.

TL;DR:
Build is ok, fine tuning will come after you got some fighting done.

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How are the AC/5's at medium range? I assume they would also be useful in close?

In my opinion the AC5 is one of the best weapons in the game. It has insanely good damage per heat, all the range you'll need in most situations, and still decent damage output. Very versatile weapon. Only problem are lights that circle you, but every ballistic weapon has that problem. This one has at least alot of ammo per ton so a few misses aren't a problem.

Edited by Denolven, 01 October 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[Geek Verve]

Well, I finally pulled the trigger on a new Cat last night. After a process of playing a few matches, sucking badly, trying a different loadout, rinsing and repeating until I had blown through nearly all my C-Bills, I finally found a build that is allowing me to post some of my best games ever. I had a personal best match of 596 dmg, 3 kills and 7 assists at one point.

A couple observations about my current build (CPLT-K2) and the Catapult in general, as it applies to me, anyway. Ymmv:

• As much as I like the gauss rifle, using one in a Cat is a death wish. I don't know how many matches I was knocked out of because mine exploded, but it was a lot. That was with all armor except 10-12 pts. shifted to the front L/RT's and keeping the enemy in front of me. It always said "ammo explosion", and I did have a ton of gauss ammo in the same side torso, but as I understand it, gauss ammo doesn't explode. I only put it there to share some of the crit vulnerability.
  
• Changes to my play style probably helped as much as anything. Doing everything I could to make sure I didn't find myself in a skirmish against multiple mechs or one that I had no easy route of retreat helped immensely.
  
• Being only my second non-trial mech, this Cat with 400 armor (ok, leg armor may not count for much), doesn't seem to be able to take all that much more punishment than my initial KTO-20.
  
• Heat only becomes a factor if I'm pushing it non-stop on the PPC's.
  
• The AC2's give me a nice filler weapon between PPC charges, though I did run out of ammo a couple of times.

I can shave some more armor to make room for another ton of AC2 ammo, but are there any other suggestions for this particular build?

Thanks!
GV

[Denolven]

If you use the AC2 only as a filler, or to blind or suppress the opponent, you can try using only one. Same shake power, 6 free tons.
With those 6 tons you can use a large or two medium lasers as backup weapons. do some games and see what's missing. If you don't miss anything, put a BAP on it
(just in case a little ECM guy is bugging you, BAP allows you to inform your team)

Like this
or this (runs cooler)

Depends on how much you are forced to fight off light mechs, I guess. The ACs are good against big targets, lasers are good against fast moving stuff.
In my Blackjack I use two AC2 as main weapon. I have 7 tons of ammo and still run out too often. If heat is no problem for you and you want to keep the second AC2, try switching 1-2 heatsinks for ammo. Moar DAKKA!!!

Oh, and the main advantage of a Catapult over let's say a BJ-3 (which uses dual PPC too), is that you can really take a few more hits. It may not feel like that, but if you count your "hits until I die", you'll notice it. The difference is not 10 hits, it's more like 2-3 hits. So no, you can't run around all herpy derpy. No matter what mech you are in, you'll almost always "die too fast".
Try the trial Atlas, if you want to see a real difference. That thing can eat alot. But even an Atlas dies quickly if you put it in a bad situation.

Fiddling around to make it work, and then see the numbers raise - great isn't it?

Edited by Denolven, 05 October 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[Daemir]

I would always be hesitant mixing PPCs and AC2s in same build, both weapons run hot. If you want some filler between PPC shots, the dual AC5 gives a good punch with little heat.

something like this works just fine, if you lose arms you lose some heat effic, but k2 arms rarely get shot at anyway.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a8aea7c0f91ff81