64 replies to this topic

[Feetwet]

Beliall, on 02 October 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

spiders dont do more damage than any other mech unless everyone just decides hey dont shoot that spider as it kills everyone in their backs.

Question have you actually piloted a spider? You will find out not op at all. Actually you are just constantly running for your life while getting a few shots in.

Ok, just stop.

I have 3 spiders. The only one that is a problem to level for me is the 1 that only carries 2 energy hardpoints in the chest. Yes I am constantly running because as long as your moving you are nigh invincible.

Had a map a couple of weeks ago with my ecm spider. My team got destroyed while I capped leaving 11 mechs on the field. I charged typing 'I got this :-)'. Me in my spider against the blob...and I got 3 of them. Its broken.

Note: Yes, I can kill them. I usually run short range builds and can take them down, but it is still annoying to see the other team (last night) crest the hill with 6 champion spiders split 3x3 in 2 lances...scrap! (I got 2 of them plus an Atlas).

S

[stjobe]

Aym, on 02 October 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Don't know if you intentionally ignored my point about still having the hardpoints to effectively mount other weapons or not... But again, it's the spider and the DD that illustrate the problem, although I used to enjoy my dragon with 2 ER PPC's and MG's, although that was with the much shorter range MG's.

I didn't ignore it, I listed every 'mech in the game with 3 or more ballistic hardpoints. Of those, only the Spider and the JM6-DD are regularly seen with MGs, which kind of speaks against your point that "any mech that CAN take 3+ machine guns and still have the hardpoints for other weapons DOES take 3+ machine guns".

[Aym]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I didn't ignore it, I listed every 'mech in the game with 3 or more ballistic hardpoints. Of those, only the Spider and the JM6-DD are regularly seen with MGs, which kind of speaks against your point that "any mech that CAN take 3+ machine guns and still have the hardpoints for other weapons DOES take 3+ machine guns".

All the others listed suffer significantly from a hardpoint shortage if they use the slots for MG's, if you added ballistic slots to my atlas you can bet I'd look into putting MG's in there, same for almost any mech I can think of. My point is specifically that those 2 mechs illustrate the problem, and that future mechs may take advantage of it. For instance, if the Cent 9A could put 2 or 3 MG's into it's arm, don't you think you'd see that happening? You also point out the reason the Hunchback doesn't do it, because it NEEDS a big gun in there to be effective, otherwise it's too gimped with it's squirelly arms and huge side torso. The same goes for all the other mechs you list that CAN take multiple machine guns but as I said in my first post, pay too high a price to do it.

The Marmoset is an interesting exception because of how powerful the buzz-saw is with 3 UAC-5's, but that hardly changes my point.
Any mech that's {Scrap} with or w/out MG's should be left off the list anyway, since it's still {Scrap}, neh?

Edited by Aym, 02 October 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[stjobe]

Aym, on 02 October 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

All the others listed suffer significantly from a hardpoint shortage if they use the slots for MG's, if you added ballistic slots to my atlas you can bet I'd look into putting MG's in there, same for almost any mech I can think of. My point is specifically that those 2 mechs illustrate the problem, and that future mechs may take advantage of it. For instance, if the Cent 9A could put 2 or 3 MG's into it's arm, don't you think you'd see that happening? You also point out the reason the Hunchback doesn't do it, because it NEEDS a big gun in there to be effective, otherwise it's too gimped with it's squirelly arms and huge side torso. The same goes for all the other mechs you list that CAN take multiple machine guns but as I said in my first post, pay too high a price to do it.

There's exactly two 'mechs in the game right now that regularly make use of the MG, and only one that makes effective use of them. All the others that could take MGs choose other weapons because those weapons are strictly better than the MG - and I'm pretty sure the 5K would rather mount SLs than MGs given the choice.

I don't see any reason any of the future 'mechs would make other calls as to the effectiveness of the MG unless the MG itself is changed.

And you're right, this is a problem. It probably means the MG needs a buff still.

[Aym]

There are exactly two mechs I mentioned, so I'm glad you agree with me finally. However you haven't addressed the issue that were the ballistic hardpoints available, IE more of them than needed to get a decent build, people would chuck MG's at them.

[Damocles69]

No... just no

[stjobe]

Aym, on 02 October 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

There are exactly two mechs I mentioned, so I'm glad you agree with me finally. However you haven't addressed the issue that were the ballistic hardpoints available, IE more of them than needed to get a decent build, people would chuck MG's at them.

Er... I just did:

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

There's exactly two 'mechs in the game right now that regularly make use of the MG, and only one that makes effective use of them. All the others that could take MGs choose other weapons because those weapons are strictly better than the MG - and I'm pretty sure the 5K would rather mount SLs than MGs given the choice.

I don't see any reason any of the future 'mechs would make other calls as to the effectiveness of the MG unless the MG itself is changed.

And you're right, this is a problem. It probably means the MG needs a buff still.

[PEEFsmash]

Machineguns too powerful?

Forumbads too clueless?

[CravenMadness]

Umm... no? If I had (and regularly I do) have hard points I don't consider useful, I do not just arbitrarily cram weapons systems in there. I'll generally add more ammo or heat-sinks, or upgrade engine size to fill out any extra tonnage I may have. Hell, I would take even ams over machine-guns.

[Bhael Fire]

MGs barely do any damage — even with 6 of them — because they're extremely inaccurate and splash their DPS all over the place...including targets you're not intending to hit. Even when boated, they are supplemental weapons at best.

If you're getting killed by them frequently, that's something you might want to keep to yourself...Because I can pretty much guarantee it's not an issue for the majority of players.

[Valore]

Small reminder here.

MGs are only ever used on light mechs for another reason.

MGs completely screw your torso twist game over. And on heavier mechs, torso twist is an integral part of being anywhere near decent in the game.

The Spider is the issue, namely it being a nightmare to hit. Not MGs.

[Mr 144]

No one runs a -DD because it's good...they run it to troll and have fun. Before the ERPPC super-heat nerf, it could be mildly effective with a pair of them...but now...nope, pure troll.

Saying other mechs suffer to much from hardpoints to use them is insanely dumb. Even the DD poster child only has 2 additional hardpoints after loading up on MGs.

If you really believe MGs are OP...well...I dunno, L2P perhaps? ...and I don't throw that term around often, but it truly applies here.

[TheGallows]

Machine guns are the opposite of overpowered. They have terrible alpha, terrible range, terrible DPS, can't focus on a single armor section and require being aimed 100% of the time. The only upside is no heat and low tonnage.

[Vodrin Thales]

Darramouss, on 01 October 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

I'm sorry for that response. I came off strong.

I'm not trying to troll, I just find it hard to believe that Spiders are topping the damage tables. If you guys, who have more experience, say that it is the Spider, then what do you suggest? If it's the speed that's the issue then surely ballistic splash damage would fix it? If a heavy enough shell strikes the ground then the legs of nearby mechs take a small hit? It would have to be AC/10s or AC/20s. AC/5s aren't heavy enough, I would think.

Are you really seeing spiders regularly topping damage charts in your matches? I'm just not seeing that in mine. They sometimes can have a great game with 300+ damage and 4 kills, but that is a rare performance.

And as much as hit detection with spiders is a bit screwy, I still find their legs not too difficult to pull off. And once they are legged it's easy to squish that spider.

[Vodrin Thales]

Feetwet, on 02 October 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Ok, just stop.

Had a map a couple of weeks ago with my ecm spider. My team got destroyed while I capped leaving 11 mechs on the field. I charged typing 'I got this :-)'. Me in my spider against the blob...and I got 3 of them. Its broken.

Hate to say it, but if you successfully charged through 11 enemy mechs in a spider and they did not kill you they need to go to gunnery school.

Yes spider hit detection is borked, but no they are not invincible.

[Mystere]

What's next, flamers are OP too?

[Dawnstealer]

As someone that has a lot of Assaults and Heavies, as well as a Spider K, I can assure you that the machine gun, all by itself, is not what's doing you in.

Now, while piloting my Spider K, I will attempt to get behind a mech, because (duh) the armor is so much less back there; it's obviously easier to punch through ~15 points of armor than the ~80 in the front. What's more, the MGs are not the only weapon I have on that thing: I also have a LL.

That LL is what I use to punch through the armor (and two well-aimed shots typically do that). Then the MGs dig out those juicy, juicy innards.

Why the 5K is so effective is that people see the MGs light up, see their armor flare, but hardly change color, and then ignore it because OMG THAT ATLAS IS RIGHT THERE!!!

Result? The Spider burrows a hole through the weak spot in your armor and you die. Or you aren't able to turn fast enough to protect the spot they're continually hitting.

So no: machine guns do not need to be nerfed. Instead, work more cohesively as a team, be more aware of your surroundings, and, if you're still not convinced, fire up a 5K sometime and see how "overpowered" they are for yourself.

[BlackIronTarkus]

No!

They perfectly fine, very well balanced indeed. They have a role, they fill it, they arent OP in the slightest. For them to be OP it would need to be able to fire very far, which they dont.

[Mawai]

Although it is anecdotal ... I have seen a number of mechs being very quickly cored by 4 MG Spiders after the armor has been stripped from the CT. (It has happened to me a few times too ... it feels much faster than being attacked by a Jenner or other light in the same circumstances). The MG damage against armor doesn't seem too bad but spiders excel at hit and run strikes during a melee and distracting opponents during a push ... so there are often other weapons being used to break through the armor making the effect of the MGs alone hard to judge.

The best solution is to take a MG mech onto the testing grounds and see how many rounds are required to strip a certain amount of armor followed by how many additional rounds are needed to core the opponent. If 4 MGs can core an Atlas which is missing it's CT armor in under 10s then I would say they are overpowered.

OK - so I decided to test it - here are some ACTUAL results from the testing grounds.

JM6-S - 4MGs - fires 1000 MG rounds in 25 seconds

I was able to core all 8 test mechs using just 5 tons of MG ammo.

Testing - fired from 30m and damaged the CT only on all targets. I recorded the number of rounds used to strip all armor and then to core the center torso of each mech using ONLY 4 MGs. These numbers have been converted to time using the 25s for 1000rds (which matches the stated specs for MG and was also tested in game).

Table:
Mech - time to strip armor - time to kill mech
Commando - 4s - 2.1s
Cicada 2A - 5.5s - 4.8s
Catapult A1 - 12.4s - 4.5s
Atlas D - 24s - 7s
Jenner - 5.5s - 3.2s
CN9-A - 9.1s - 4.1s
CTF-1X - 13.1s - 5.1s
AWS-8D - 15.2s - 5.9s

So - if the CT armor is stripped - 4 MGs can core any mech in the game in less than 7s of continuous fire. Any CT weapons are destroyed long before the mech is destroyed.

I don't have the armor stats for stock mechs handy but these numbers could easily be mapped to the actual armor on a mech - however, the internal structure is the same for all variants ... so the armor stripped kill times should be accurate in all cases.

Now ... are MGs overpowered? It is up to you to decide. The can strip armor fairly effectively and once the armor is gone can core EVERY mech in the game in 7 seconds or less.

This would tend to support my observation of the effectiveness of 4 MG spiders at killing off damaged mechs.

Of course - this is under ideal conditions ...

Edited by Mawai, 02 October 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[stjobe]

Mawai, on 02 October 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Although it is anecdotal ... I have seen a number of mechs being very quickly cored by 4 MG Spiders after the armor has been stripped from the CT.

Yes, the crit mechanics are designed such that the MG has about 2 DPS versus internal structure, making those MGs double their DPS once armour is removed.

They do 1 DPS vs armour still, so saying they can "strip armour fairly effective" is a bit of a stretch.

Nobody argues they aren't effective against breached targets.