Recently I have been torn between two particular aspects of MWO - DPS and heat (like so many other players). In order to discover the best method of shooting mah’ guns, and to enrich the community, I decided to write about it (well s*** son!).
As the title alludes, there are two major methods of fire control...
The “torrent” involves firing your entire arsenal in one big hoorah (a.k.a. Boating/Alpha Striking). As any experienced player knows this technique maximizes DPS while reducing heat efficiency. Now I understand you can use Coolant Flush, but everyone knows CF can be used, at most, twice during a match (P2P).
On the other hand there is the “trickle”, which is the act of discharging single weapons in succession over a longer period of time. Of course, this maximizes heat efficiency, while conserving DPS.
My point (TL;DR):
Should the use of Alpha Strikes be resorted to solely in last ditch efforts, or is Boating the key to dominating the cluster screw that is MWO? If so, does it really pay to use trickling? Which mechs work best with which attack type? Let me know.
Note: I'm looking for practical evidence. Stats and statistics are one thing, but they often translate into poor in-game effectiveness.
Edited by YourBusDriver, 28 September 2013 - 03:21 PM.
Alphaing doesn't generate more heat, unless you use weapons with a ghost heat penalty, so why wouldnt you want to get as much damage off in a short time frame to limit your own time out in the firing line.
You always want to frontload as much damage as possible. There are a few reasons for this:
-There is a very real possibility that unloading an immediate 50 points of damage into your opponent's chest will result in an instant kill, which means taking no return fire.
-Spreading out your fire over time means spreading damage all over the enemy's mech as he tries to get out from under your reticle. Shooting all at once gives you the best chance of putting all your damage in one place. Even if it's the wrong place, it's better to take off an arm than to make everything a little yellow.
-Firing in one quick group lets you take the best advatange of cover. If you fire all weapons and then retreat behind a building, you have done your opponent tons of damage and take none in exchange, and now you can cool off while he tries to pursue you.
-There are no penalties for running hot. Thus, there's nothing stopping you from slamming your opponent with four PPCs and then switching to chain fire. This gives you the above benefits, and usually leaves them weak enough that you can finish them off more easily.
Obviously, if you can have a huge alpha and good heat efficiency, do it, but if you have to choose, alpha strikes are almost always better. This is why the larger ballistic weapons are so potent- they frontload tons of damage for high alphas, but in a pinch they're heat efficient enough to let you slug it out.
Unfortunately, the threshold mechanics of MWO favor the Torrents. Where the threshold mechanics of past MW games (not counting PSX, expansions and Titanium editions of MW 2 raised to 40 for 'arcadey' feelings and the franchise faith crushing threshold of MW4 with its 60 threshold) like the original Battletech PC games, the 1992 simulator, and MW3 all favored a combination of the two. Though seriously the laser design in all the past MW games have been its major flaw.
Sniper builds favour high alpha strikes - preferably with pinpoint weapons (PPCs, Gauss rifles). Here you don't want chain fire - you want all the damage done at once in one place.
Fire support builds favour DPS weapons - UAC5s, LRMs, Large lasers. I suggest switching from chain fire to alpha behaviour when appropriate to do so. The easiest way to control UAC5 jamming I have found is to start it off in chain fire (never jams, conserves ammo) and when I have a peach of a shot, I double tap. I like 4xlarge lasers in chain fire - it is almost sustained damage to the enemy. The psychological impact of coming under constant fire should not be underestimated.
LRMs are slightly different in that you want as many missiles in one cloud as you can to minimise effectiveness of AMS - but chain firing smaller LRMs (5s and 10s) can waste enemy AMS ammo, reveal their locations, and, if an enemy has no AMS or ECM cover, set up a constant barrage of rocking/explosions that disorientates and disables. I would chain fire small LRMs and salvo fire larger ones.
Light 'Mechs like the Jenner are hit and run. In this case they need alpha striking followed by retreat/cover and cool. Chain fire will leave them exposed for too long in most cases.
It's sometimes worth considering changing alpha for chain fire on hot maps to better control your overheat point. It's definitely worth chain firing to conserve ammo (UAC5s especially) if you have a 50/50 shot at range. Chain firing LRMs or lasers can force an enemy into mistakes, but can leave you exposed to return fire. Otherwise it's alpha all the way!
I'm afraid I don't record videos, so I can't provide hard evidence. But I can give you my impressions!
I've always grouped weapons according to range/type. So I'll have large lasers in one group and mediums in another, LRM's and SRM's in separate groups, etc. This facilitates firing them separately, and the fact that I usually only run 3 or 4 groups in total means that I can alpha easily if I need to.
I'll generally only fire groups singly - but I will try and time coming round a corner so that all my cooldowns have passed and I can alpha something big and nasty if I want them to think twice while I back up.
From what I've seen spectating, and conversations with clanmates and others, I think I'm in the minority. It seems to be that as soon as a cooldown on a weapon has passed - BOOM, fire away.
Ultimately, there isn't a 'best' way, just what you like best. I prefer firing more over time, because I can usually land shots on a shut-down overheated enemy. But if I've been obliterated already by someone's alpha... and so on and so on.
Alphaing doesn't generate more heat, unless you use weapons with a ghost heat penalty, so why wouldnt you want to get as much damage off in a short time frame to limit your own time out in the firing line.
In past games, a threshold limit of 30 heat (40 in MW2, 60 in MW4) prevented you from firing massive amounts of high-heat, high damage weapons. In which case, firing weapons in a rapid chain of blasts was favorable until the discovery of ER Large and ER Medium lasers being virtually instant damage.
In closed beta, even with the increasing threshold system, the lack of DHS or ENGINE HEATSINKS (didn't exist) and the lack of XL engines kept players barely able to function. They had thresholds with a minimum of 30 (no heatsinks equipped) with an average of 45 (15 tons of heatsinks). This introduced a fun game with a heat management system that caused 1 times armor battles to really draw out (until the discovery that the head is super easy to kill). Soon they did some hitbox fixes. Had some problems still but it helped out. The game was loads of fun.
Then they introduced engine heatsinks built in, and a requirement of 10 heatsinks.
Everyone had a minimum of 40 threshold. Bigger weapons could be used. Chainfiring wasn't as necessary. The 9 ML Hunchback became King with the Gauss Rifle now de-throned. Immediately PGI implements double armor.
DHS and XL engines become introduced. Average threshold became 50. Alpha striking became common, but limited. Repair and rearm disappeared. Pilot skills became implemented.
Average threshold is 52 (with skills) and up to high 60s.
6 PPC joke builds began appearing. Those with good connections butchered everything in sight. Implementation of 20% increase to Threshold came with pilot skill Heat Containment at the Master level. Thresholds by now are in the 50s to 70s.
Host State Rewind became implemented. PPCs always hit. Always. MWO became all about the alpha strike. Everything became hit as hard as you can. Thresholds can reach in the 90s as all other weapons became dropped.
Ghost heat became implemented to control that.
Now you can spam more fire than before if you truly wanted. My limit used to be 12 LRM-15s. Now I can do 16 LRM-15s in rapid succession with the same mech and build. Thanks to Ghost Heat not letting me fire it all at once, it also focuses more on the center torso where before it used to spread all over the enemy mech and damage everything.
July 2012 -- uploaded long after the NDA is lifted. DX 11, awesome graphics, 14 SHS (no engine heatsinks at the time, so that's a threshold of 44).
Today, I have a 2 ER PPC + several MG Victor with 88.56 as my threshold. I haven't got elite skills yet, or I can add another 10% to that and breach 90. I can't overheat except on hot maps. In MW3, firing 2 ER PPCs at the same time is an instant shutdown and the build would never work without chain firing.
It can vary from situation to situation, but for the most part, firing an alpha strike is the best option. To chain-fire in a way that is blatantly more effective than alpha striking, you basically need a mech that has heavy brawling armour, yet has poor heat efficiency, is being used by a very skilled pilot that can stay on target and hit consistently, with the target being out in the open and having low armour.
Thats a lot of prerequisites.
Basically a good way to imagine it is to take a mech into the training grounds that isn't equipped with sniper weapons, so lets say, the current trial Jenner. You can aim at the center torso of whatever target chain-firing the medium lasers and small lasers, and then reload the map and do it with the same target again via alpha. Unless the target has high armour, you'll find you are killing them faster doing an alpha. Now once you finish those, imagine that they're fighting back, and not just standing still. A good way to try to visualize this is to speed around the enemy mech in close circles, so you can't get be on target consistently.
I always figured that alpha'ing was better, but me doing what I just described in the training grounds really sent it the message home for me.
Aw, man! Awesome responses! This gave me a lot to think about, and I’m sure any other rookies who happen to stumble across this will find it very informative. It seems that torrents have won the day… so far. I’ll wait for more responses before drawing my ultimate conclusion. Thanks to everyone who replied!
YourBusDriver, on 28 September 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:
Aw, man! Awesome responses! This gave me a lot to think about, and I’m sure any other rookies who happen to stumble across this will find it very informative. It seems that torrents have won the day… so far. I’ll wait for more responses before drawing my ultimate conclusion. Thanks to everyone who replied!
Check my BattleGrid tutorial. At the fight starting shortly after 5:35, you'll see a "Trickle" build rock the day.
It really depends on the map and playstyle of the individual.
First, we have to establish the Mechwarrior's preferred range of combat; Long, Medium or Short. This dictates his choice of weapons. (I'm typing this at work, so I'm probably missing a lot of weapons, but this is a general thing.)
At Long range, maybe 800~1800, AC/2's, Gauss Rifles, ER PPCs are the usual for effective long-ranged work.
Mid-range, 400 ~ 800, a larger variety of weapons begin to be useful, while the above weapons still work well. PPCs, ER LLs and standard LLs, Autocannons 5/10 or the LBX, LRMs. Most fire support builds shine in this range bracket, and this is the most common bracket of engagement in most maps
Short-range, 0 ~ 300, we're down to the AC/20, Medium/Small Lasers, all Pulse Lasers, Machineguns, Flamers. In this range, most long-ranged weaponry begin to lose its effectiveness. the ER PPC throws around too much waste heat for no benefit (other than being able to shoot within 80m with no penalty), its harder to pop a reactionary shot with the Gauss due to its charge-up time, though the reliable AC/2 retains its effectiveness throughout all ranges. Most Medium ranged weapons also retain their usefulness, such as the Large Lasers and various Autocannons, though the LRMs are strictly for 300 ~ 100m work.
From there, we split the weapons into "Sustained DPS" (Or as you call it, 'trickle') and "Burst DPS". Common sense tells us that weapons such as Gauss rifles, PPCs, AC/20's and other hard-hitting, single-shot weapons fall into the "Burst DPS" category, allowing maximum damage in the shortest amount of time possible, allowing you to minimize exposure. Even Lasers can fall into this category when done in sufficient amounts and used well.
Sustained DPS weapons require for you to have a bead on the target at all times, turning things into a DPS race. Many Jagermech and Cataphract Autocannon users rely on this, betting that their immense DPS will win over whatever's pummeling their large front profile. Machinegun builds also fall under this category as they rely on damage over time. With the nature of these builds, they are very ballistic-oriented, as attempts to do this with energy weapons other than Medium Lasers or without proper heat sinks risk you shutting down.
Even then, many weapons fall in-between both categories depending on how they're used. Medium Lasers and LBX-10's may be used as both Burst and Sustained DPS weapons, in which the only difference would be how they're used and on what mech. An Atlas with 2 LBX-10's will use them in both capacities, while a Hunchback may use it more as a burst DPS weapon, popping in and out of cover whenever possible.
As mentioned in the previous posts, Burst DPS weaponry allows for pinpoint strikes of specific parts (Which PGI has been trying to nerf to the ground) while Sustained DPS weaponry has an effective psychological effect (Autocannons hammering your mech, chain-fired missiles) and overall just pressuring most inexperienced mechwarriors into reacting in a way that benefits the aggressor.
There's simply many variables in this, and really, the only core importance in the end is pilot preference and skill.
In the current metagame, it does seem that both types of weaponry are beginning to equal out, as even Burst weaponry has its defensive advantages (you can afford to torso twist and turn to spread damage around without losing DPS) while the guy with sustained DPS has an obligation to face whatever they're firing at all times or otherwise just lose whatever DPS they're trying to hammer into something in the first place, which is why an Atlas may afford to use LBX-10's as Sustained DPS weapons accompanied with Lasers over say, a Hunchback.
With my lrms I want that full salvo, depending on the situation with a target I want alpha or chain on my back ups.
Fighting a light, I'll try to hit chain firing so they are dodging several blasts.. but if fighting something easy to hit full burst fire then scoot. Because I know they are going to eat a face full of laser beams
Well it seems that effective strategy is determined entirely by ones' individual play style. After reading all these posts, and tromping around in the field, I was able to put the advice I read to good used. It seems what Shaftronics said recently, hit home. Personally I fight mid to long ranges. As my AO (area of operation) begins to shrink, I favor Sustained DPS, using my array of Medium Lasers in a long stream of fire. At long ranges, the distance affords me ample time to cool down, so torrents work well.
But that is just me.
Feel free to post any more opinions.
I enjoyed perusing all the different combat approaches. I guess it also taught me a lot about what to expect, so far as strategy, from potential opponents and allies.
Of course this begs the question… what strategies complement each other best, and which counter one another best.
There is one thing being left out of this thread so far as I could see.
Fun. What is fun for the player? Is it more fun to dual AC20 your Jager DD, or to put 6 MG on it, or 4 MG and 2 UAC5, etc. What weapons are the most entertaining for you? Which do you seem to have a knack for?
i guess it is a combination of skill or simply player choice in this matter. effectiveness is part of the equation(being totally ineffective is not fun obviously) but even if there was a single I win combination, if it simply wasnt a fun loadout, why play it? If the only thing that makes the game fun is doing the same thing over and over again, then I suppose that player is much more easily entertained then I am. I buy variants of each chassis, for elites, but i keep all of them. Whay? because no two of my chassis are loaded the same way. my Atlas RS and D are pretty dam close(running the RS to master because i didnt like it as much and my ERPPC arms loadout got to hot recently), but the rest of my chassis are their own entity. I have mastered all Phracts. I own them all yet, and none of them are the same, not even close.
variety is the spice of life, for me anyway. So when the question of Alpha or DPS comes up, I would have to answer, "depends on my mood and what chassis or mech i am running" I have anything from close up brawl facesmash to long range fire support to LRM boats to Mixed range loadouts to the afforementioned MG/UAC5/ML jager D. I do well enough in all of them with 300-600 dmg average and decent KDR and W/L ratio. It's fun. If i try something out, and find it to be meh, i will alter it till i find something that fits me and the chassis well, and then I will do well in it. Whether it is DPS, or Alpha, or mixed, depends entirely on the variant.
LOL, I was in a match the other day, in my troll A1 streak cat. I built it, entirely out of curiosity AFTER the SSRM were altered to spread dmg (actually long after, like a week ago) because i wanted to see if anyone was justified in their whiney *** threads about SSRM. We lost, but my team was, well, derps. The 3 assaults(2 atlas and a HGN) got rolled over on the ridge on frozen city by a lance of heavy mechs and a centurian. I was the last alive, and I got chided for my loadout. In the end, 582 dmg, multiple componant destructions, 1 kill and 4 assists. I was just JJ over people and splatting mech shaking SSRM on them. I changed targets at a whim, because litterally 30 seconds after the fight started, my 3 assaults and well, basically 3/4 of the team were dead already(derps) so I knew it wouldnt matter. The centurian I was pestering and the phract i killed near the end both had nerd rage over my shinanigans. I had a big grin.
Was it optimal, LOL no, not by "forum standards" but despite that, I adjusted to it, made it mobile and use it as anti-light and clean up and assist firepower. It is 30 dmg after all, and to a light, thats murderous when they cant escape it. To assaults, it still is good as support fire, blowing arms off is under rated when you have a jenner and a hunchie and myself trying to take on two assault mechs. Any mech with exposed internals might as well kiss that limb goodbye. Chain fire is smashtastic cockpit shake for the nerd raging guy in the jager, which helps everyone around me too. The mech has a decent W/L ratio, and makes me solid cash with the destruction bonuses and spotting assists etc. Most of all, JJ'ing around and raining explosions and cockpit shake on everyone, and chasing the dang spider away from my team mates is good fun.
I'm with you Eldagore. Despite my background in statistics, I'm the anti-min/maxer. I go with what's fun. Sure, my KDR is toilet water compared to some folks. Doesn't matter to me. Most of the time I am happy with getting assists, and regrettably that isn't tracked long-term. Had one game recently where I got 2 kills, but 10 assists, which tells me I shared the love with everyone on the opposing team!
Sure, I've been on derp teams. Hell, I'll freely admit I've been the derp on many teams. Again, it simply doesn't matter. Sure, I want to support my team. And yes, killin' stuffs is fun. But I've heard too many self-proclaimed "competitors" who approach this like it was their job. Life's too short and I'm too old to play games that way. So long as it all remains fun, I'm in it!
Indeed. This is why I loved doing a macro for my XL-engine using triple AC/2 Hunchback even though I know alpha striking is superior in every way. I spent 18 tons not to get an AC/6 that shoots every 0.52 seconds but to get an AC/2 that fires every 0.25 seconds. Which is why the AC/2 penalty thing irks me so bad.
Loved that build.
Other "fun" builds!
Spoiler
Twin AC/5 twin AC/2 with no penalties. Ruined. Thanks Paul.
Twin UAC/5 + twin AC/2. Still works, but pretty slow. (Yes, girls play MWO too.)
The fire suppression 4 AC/2 Jager. Ruined by penalties.
4 flamers, 2 MGs, 2 LB-10 Jager. Recorded by Lordred.
The IKBoSy. 2 flamers, 2 LB-10, UAC/5. Designed by (aside from my UAC/5 addition) and recorded by Lordred.
Flamer Stalker tribute: My trademarked mech slaughtering platform.
Spoiler
In order of recent to oldest.
3 mech butcher.
Terra Therma ambush
Flamer Stalker -- stealth assassin.
After a hiatus, the flamer stalker returned from being out of commission. After its performance here (multiple kills before recording and after) it receives the trademark 3 shades of orange paintjob.
Said paint:
Spoiler
Protecting a limping ally.
When it was nerfed into the ground so that SRMs did less than 2.0 damage due to the splash mechanic.
Original flamer stalker gets 500+ damage in SECONDs.
Unfortunately, the threshold mechanics of MWO favor the Torrents. Where the threshold mechanics of past MW games (not counting PSX, expansions and Titanium editions of MW 2 raised to 40 for 'arcadey' feelings and the franchise faith crushing threshold of MW4 with its 60 threshold) like the original Battletech PC games, the 1992 simulator, and MW3 all favored a combination of the two. Though seriously the laser design in all the past MW games have been its major flaw.
As far as whether or not DPS can be effective, try this video.
This is exactly right. Because we are unable to build heat neutral mechs and the heatscale is twice as high as mech3, the torrent is not only good because of the front load & cover, but because it can be repeated. However..recovering from 100% heat takes much longer, and thus rushing after forcing some torrents can cripple the enemy.
That said, the trickle is extremely good at suppression, ie 4 AC/2 or a lot of LRMS. Be prepared to waste a lot of ammo, but it has it's uses.
More advanced pilots often prefer a combined arms approach. ie a gauss dual ppc highlander has a 4-5 s firing gap. during that time a few MLaser or pulses can finish him off.
If you can cram secondaries like even a few small lasers onto a mech it can help a lot in a pinch.
(Twice as high as a near minimum. My builds run an average of nearly 3 times as high.)
4 AC/2 rigs get heat penalties. You're punished for more than 3.
LRMs need to be fired in pairs of 2 or chain fired. The exception is with a LOT of LRM-5s.
After learning how to play support mediums, the BJ-1 became my most favourite mech, even though I hated it at first. The key is simple (which doesn't mean it's easy):
Everytime you are not shot, dps is the way to go. So the key is to know when you can afford to stick your head out and let it rain.
I get a good position where I can support-fire in many directions (that includes some rooftops), but can hide everything below my arms and have the option to retreat behind high cover to break off LRM fire. Then I spend some time suppressing and damaging big guys. After some fighting, I go flanking somewhere, if the situation is right.
Before mastering the BJ-1 I thought the BJ-1X (the fast one without JJ) was the only usefull Blackjack at all. The other BJs come with a STD180 engine @64kph, which is damn frustrating when you are sitting in a paper mech.
After upgrading the 1X, I played it with 6 ML and 21 DHS + max engine. Yes, 21 double heat sinks, that's right, I don't even use Endo-Steel. My tactic: make the opponent spend his 2 alphas, then watching him trying to retreat, while I keep my 6 lasers on him again, and again, and again... Exceptionally usefull on hot maps.
I used it as a scout/capper/light hunter/flanker and got stats better than any other of my mechs. For some weird reason though, mastering the BJ-1 made me forgot how to play the BJ-1X But that's ok, because the BJ-1 is alot more versatile (JJ, range) and has the DAKKA factor for fun.
Both are dps builds, and both work well, given you have the battle awareness that is needed to make them work. I have bad aiming skills but good situational awareness, so the AC2 on a versatile mech is perfect for me. With my Misery, I never get more than 300 damage (yes I'm really bad with big slow mechs), while my Dakka-Jack usually gets 300-600. With like half the weight, alot more speed and jump jets. Plus all the Dakka, that is not only fun, but also suppresses alot of opponent fire.
Alpha builds are alot easier to use, if you can aim properly. But dps builds are stronger if you are able to pick the right situations.
"Trickling" works better in fights where heat will be a long term issue, or you have an unsure shot. In the first situation, a potential long term brawl, shutting down is death, so managing heat can be more useful than a little extra DPS. In the second situation, why waste an alpha on a pot shot, particularly when a better shot might be right behind it.
Alpha striking is better when you can deliver the killing blow, have a sure shot, or aren't worried about the heat (you haven't fired anything yet or an alpha won't put you over 60% heat).
4
Thanks Paul.
