39 replies to this topic

[VeryVizzy]

Edit: After feedback, changing the weight of the LPL probably wouldn't be a good idea. Let me know if you've got a good alternative suggestion/set of figures in mind.


I think all of them do, but by varying degrees. Since I think Medium and Large Lasers are in a good place right now regarding balance I've based my changes on bringing the other lasers onto their level.

IMO:

• Small Lasers need a big buff
  
• Medium/Large Pulse Lasers need a normal buff
  
• Small Pulse Lasers need a small buff

My Changes:

- Small Laser range increase from 90m/180m to 180m/360m

- Small Pulse range increase from 90m/180m to 120m/240m

- Medium Pulse range increase from 180m/360m to 200m/400m
- Medium Pulse damage increase from 6 to 6.5 (1.67dps to 1.81dps)

- Large Pulse Laser weight decrease from 7 tonnes to 6 tonnes.


Table of Stats (Bold are my changes):

Name	Weight	Slots	Damage	DPS	Heat	Heat Per Second	Range	Max Range	Duration	Cooldown
Small Laser	0.5t	1	3.0	1.0	2.0	0.67	180m	360m	0.75s	2.25s
Small Pulse Laser	1t	1	3.4	1.24	2.4	0.87	120m	240m	0.5s	2.25s
Medium Laser	1t	1	5.0	1.25	4.0	1.0	270m	540m	1.0s	3.0s
Medium Pulse Laser	2t	1	6.5	1.81	5.0	1.39	200m	400m	0.6s	3.0s
Large Laser	5t	2	9.0	2.12	7.0	1.65	450m	900m	1.0s	3.25s
ER Large Laser	5t	2	9.0	2.12	8.5	2.0	675m	1350m	1.0s	3.25s
Large Pulse Laser	6t	2	10.6	2.75	8.5	2.21	300m	600m	0.6s	3.25

My Reasoning (skip if you're the busy kinda guy):

Spoiler

Going to write in bulllets points because I'm lazy/tired.


Small Laser:

• Medium Lasers are a great all-round weapon, pretty much backup weapon of choice.
  
• Wanted to give Small Laser similar niche, with it's only difference being 0.5t instead of 1t (not a big difference in the scheme of things).
  
• Original 90m/180m range is pathetic, considering you're only doing half damage at 180m it gets even worse.
  
• Only Small/Medium mechs can dictate that range, and even then it's risky getting that close (nearby enemy teammates etc.)
  
• 180m/360m is more the typical engagement range.
  
• Only outshines the Medium Laser at 180m and less, but still useful up to 360m.
  
• A viable alternative, still a little niche but could get some uses (think LRM boats/Cats etc.)

Small Pulse Laser:

• Pulse Lasers (IMO) more of a primary (main damage dealer) weapon compared to general/backup weapon of normal lasers.
  
• Already viable on Light Mechs so don't need a massive buff.
  
• Directly competes with a Medium Laser in terms of loadout.
  
• Very risky getting into 90m/180m.
  
• Slightly less risky at 120m/240m
  
• A risk/reward weapon compared to the safe option Medium Laser.

Medium Pulse Laser:

• I think you could go a number of ways to balance it.
  
• Tricky to find it's niche.
  
• Needs to have more of a punch compared to Medium Lasers, since you're paying a whole extra tonne.
  
• Slight damage buff and range buff might not be enough, but should definitely help.
  
• Probably the best candidate to decrease it's duration to 0.5s (Same as small Pulse)

Large Pulse Laser:

• Already performs well on the battlefield.
  
• Have to sacrifice too much in mech loadout to fit one or two though (extra 2t per laser!) for a very marginal increase.
  
• I feel 6t is a good number, still the choice of an extra 1t to fit, but you gain a damage increase compared to Large Lasers below 300m and sacrifice being able to hit over 600m, as well as the easier to hit short duration.

Let me know if you guys think I'm crazy with the numbers. I could definitely see shortening the duration of the pulse lasers to help as well since I think these changes might not even be enough, but wanted to keep it initially simple and not go overboard.


Edit: Jeez, trying to format this post correctly is a nightmare, it keeps adding/removing line spaces!

Edited by VeryVizzy, 28 September 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Pulse lasers need to be a burst of 3 pulses over 0.5-1 second or so that each deal damage instantly to a single location rather than a shortened duration hitscan laser weapon to make them different enough.

That being said, I'll take any buff you care to give to SPL, my JR7-F will enjoy them greatly.

[Deathlike]

You can't change the tonnage and/or the crit slots of a weapon.

It won't be changed and it's solely used for stock mechs, regardless of your opinion of them.

Everything else is changeable.

[Typatty]

I think there are three specific problems with these particular weapons.

1. Not enough damage (Small laser, large pulse laser)
2. Not enough range (All of these weapons)
3. Too much heat (Medium pulse laser, large pulse laser)

I also think reducing the LPL to 6 tons is a good way of making it a more viable option compared to the 7-ton PPC, because the PPC does the same damage, for the same heat, for the same tonnage, except instantly rather than over a duration, and with a far greater range. 6 tons at least gives the LPL a tonnage niche, but it certainly wouldn't be enough to fix the weapon on its own. I think it needs heat reduced and damage slightly increased.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Deathlike, on 28 September 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You can't change the tonnage and/or the crit slots of a weapon.

That's a shame, cause I think medium and large pulse lasers either need to drop a ton, or take up one less crit slot before people will use them. I'll take whatever damage boost I can get, though. The real mark of a successful balance is that people use all the weapons somewhat evenly but for different SITUATIONAL ROLES. Right now there is too much of a downside to running pulse lasers to make up for the tiny bit of extra damage and their greater ability to pinpoint damage on an enemy mech. One of those things, damage, weight, or crit slots, has to be tweaked or they just won't ever get used, exactly like they aren't now.

[MonkeyDCecil]

I agree with everything you said, expect LPL weight reduction. Never going to happen when it comes to weight reduction. They will not mess with weight. So come up with something different. The reason why they wont mess with weight is becuase of cannon. In TT they weigh 7 tons so in MWO they will weigh 7 tons. If you mess with weight you would have to change how stock mechs are made. And that is not going to happen.

[VeryVizzy]

MonkeyDCecil, on 28 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said, expect LPL weight reduction. Never going to happen when it comes to weight reduction. They will not mess with weight. So come up with something different. The reason why they wont mess with weight is becuase of cannon. In TT they weigh 7 tons so in MWO they will weigh 7 tons. If you mess with weight you would have to change how stock mechs are made. And that is not going to happen.

Valid point. I wanted to stick to TT values but also wanted to differentiate the LPL from the PPC. You're right though that change the weight would open a whole new can of worms that is best left unopened.

I'll have to think of another way to balance them. Hmm, prehaps a heat reduction and a very small damage/duration buff?

Edited by VeryVizzy, 28 September 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

MonkeyDCecil, on 28 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The reason why they wont mess with weight is becuase of cannon. In TT they weigh 7 tons so in MWO they will weigh 7 tons.

Why not? It isn't like they haven't already broken "cannon" a ton already. I'll take better gameplay with sightly warped cannon any day. This is an FPS/giant robot piloting simulator. TT rules won't all work for this kind of game without a little creative bending. I won't be outraged if in this game the pulse lasers weigh a ton less. I doubt anyone else would be either except maybe one angry uber-fan...

[PEEFsmash]

Every one of those weapons is weak right now. Duration length will never help, there needs to be a reduction in heat and increase in range to justify the extra tonnage of the pulse lasers, and Small lasers should have their range increased.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 28 September 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Calica]

As much as i think that most of the weapons you listed could use a buff... your numbers are way over the top, atleast for the SL and LPL.Sure they are very niche weapons now, but buffs should be a "step by step" approach, not buff to insane levels.

Adjusting SL and SPL range by +30% should be a first step. LPL and MPL could use slight increases in range too, not a lot though. +10%-+20% maybe.

If that proves to be still underpowered, there is always the possibility of buffing them again. One of the mayor reasons why PGI stumbled through the balance progress is that they either did to little and left the weapon there for months or did wayyyyy to much and left the weapon there. Leading to things like the PPC/Gauss Meta that lasted several months.

[dario03]

Lower crit and weight requirements of weapons wouldn't mess with stock builds. Raising them would, but lowering them would just mean some mechs would be under weight.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

At the moment, from what I've seen and experienced in the game, my opinion is this-

Large pulse lasers need slightly more damage.

The overall heat from most lasers has been increased from their tabletop stats, specifically most noticeable in standard medium lasers and the non-ER large lasers. ER large lasers, mysteriously, have recieved no heat increase compared to tabletop (what? I don't understand this, but it seems to have worked okay, so whatever I suppose.). Large lasers have also recieved a damage increase- but the Large Pulse Laser has seen a smaller damage increase over tabletop than either of the other large lasers (or the smaller pulse lasers), resulting in the ER and ordinary large lasers dealing slightly less damage than it instead of significantly less damage than it. Additionally, the Medium Pulse Laser has seen no increase at all over tabletop damage value.

I would say adding 1-1.5 additional damage to the LPL and a slightly smaller boost to the MPL damage and then adjusting these values slightly downwards if necessary would be the best option here- otherwise, I'm fine with my dubstep lasers.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 28 September 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Every single one needs a range buff. That's all they need IMO, since the fast pulse equates to increased applied damage anyway, so no damage buff is needed.

[FupDup]

Small Laser
Range: 160m
Heat: 1

Small Pulse Laser
Range: 120m
Damage: 4
Heat: 2

Medium Pulse Laser
Range: 225m
Damage: 6.5
Heat: 4.5

Large Pulse Laser
Range: 390m
Damage: 11.6
Heat: 8


Doneski.

Edited by FupDup, 28 September 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Small pulse is perfect where it is. It not only has a shorter duration, but a shorter cooldown and equal range, which makes up for the higher tonnage and heat.

Medium Pulse and Large Pulse on the other hand only have the benefit of shorter beam duration. I think they need to give them shorter cooldowns. You could make a case for the range staying the same so as to limit the effect of this weapon on the battlefield. The current range forces you to commit to a battle unless you're a fast mech.

The small laser could probably use a buff to range to better distinguish it.

[OneEyed Jack]

Tezcatli, on 28 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Small pulse is perfect where it is. It not only has a shorter duration, but a shorter cooldown and equal range, which makes up for the higher tonnage and heat.

Medium Pulse and Large Pulse on the other hand only have the benefit of shorter beam duration. I think they need to give them shorter cooldowns. You could make a case for the range staying the same so as to limit the effect of this weapon on the battlefield. The current range forces you to commit to a battle unless you're a fast mech.

The small laser could probably use a buff to range to better distinguish it.

I agree with the shorter CD. It would make them better burst weapons, but the heat would keep them from being able to sustain it to abuse-able levels. I think they could still use some increase in range, however, so it wasn't quite so big a sacrifice. If it was my call, I'd probably go with an increase of about 1/2 the current difference between Pulse and Standard.

I don't think pulses need a lot of help. I don't think most people properly appreciate the shorter duration, which I feel is a pretty considerable advantage for more mobile mechs, not to mention for shooting at highly mobile mechs. I'm not saying they're entirely up to par, but I just don't think they're as bad off as their rep suggests.

I think smalls are pretty much fine. At 1/2 ton each and no ammo, I don't think they ever need to be more than what they are.

[Corvus Antaka]

maybe. not sure. might make them OP.

Great post though.

[Team Leader]

I think pulse lasers should be a sustained, high DPS/HPS brawling weapon, not to be fired once then use other weapons but to keep shooting again and again and again as fast as you can. LPLs should have a pretty high DPS, better than the LL and PPC. No idea what the current numbers are but whatever., it needs to be higher for the same heat. Pulses are already gimped by higher tonnage, shorter range, and much higher heat, they should at least do significantly more damage at a slightly better range to compensate

[RandomLurker]

Team Leader, on 29 September 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

I think pulse lasers should be a sustained, high DPS/HPS brawling weapon, not to be fired once then use other weapons but to keep shooting again and again and again as fast as you can. LPLs should have a pretty high DPS, better than the LL and PPC. No idea what the current numbers are but whatever., it needs to be higher for the same heat. Pulses are already gimped by higher tonnage, shorter range, and much higher heat, they should at least do significantly more damage at a slightly better range to compensate

I disagree heavily, because having to hold sustained fire on a target means you can't use cover, manuevers, twisting, etc and also use the weapon effectively. It forces you to stand with your CT facing the target the entire time. This will make pulse lasers into Noob Cannons, easy to use but abandoned almost completely by more skilled players.

Now, maybe the game could use a few Noob Cannons, but one that teaches you to use tactics that you'll have to completely unlearn later is not desirable.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

RandomLurker, on 29 September 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

I disagree heavily, because having to hold sustained fire on a target means you can't use cover, manuevers, twisting, etc and also use the weapon effectively. It forces you to stand with your CT facing the target the entire time. This will make pulse lasers into Noob Cannons, easy to use but abandoned almost completely by more skilled players.

Now, maybe the game could use a few Noob Cannons, but one that teaches you to use tactics that you'll have to completely unlearn later is not desirable.

But that applies to all lasers. So are you saying that all weapons have to be front loaded damage to be useable?
Increasing the range of the small laser to 120m would help that.
Small and Medium Pulse need about a 30% range increase and a slight decrease in pulse time.
Large Pulses need a decrease in pulse time and heat.
This would give them a useable place as alternatives for ordinary lasers. Both as a weapon for lights and for light hunters.