68 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Medium lasers are fine. What I'm looking for is a Small laser range buff.

MWO lights are not MW4 lights. And they're not worse. MW4 lights were probably truer to the whole skirmishing and hiding getting a massive alpha in.

MWO lights are acrobatic, able to duel heavy and assault mechs up front, dancing around battles taking out targets of opportunity.

A MW4 light would crumble against a MWO light (if you could actually even compare them) if they were to face each other directly guns drawn at 5 steps. The MW4 light would win if it could get a free shot off against the MWO light.

[CancR]

For every one who is repeating ad nauseam that MLs are fine, then what justifaction do you have for the increase of heat? How wheree MLs not 'fine' at 3 heat?

[Krivvan]

CancR, on 03 October 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

For every one who is repeating ad nauseam that MLs are fine, then what justifaction do you have for the increase of heat? How wheree MLs not 'fine' at 3 heat?

Too strong in my opinion, as a Jenner pilot. That was the time when it was all MLs and Gauss Rifles.

I could argue from a selfish point of a view for a ML buff, but I think they're more than useful and effective enough. I don't want them being the best weapons in the game, I want them being the most general.

That and I'm in favour of weapons in the game having higher heat in general. Unlike some I absolutely loathe the idea of heat neutral mechs in terms of gameplay

It may also help that I'm one of the few better Jenner pilots that uses small lasers and medium lasers together for the higher DPS but lower alpha since I'm more likely to engage in a protracted fight than the more conservative Jenner pilots.

Edited by Krivvan, 03 October 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[CancR]

Being able to do less then half of what assaults and heavies can do in a alpha strike, which also requires more skill as you need to be in the lion's den to be able to do it and need unwavering aim to optimize the damage output IS NOT over powered.

if you played a jenner more then once a week, you would be saying the same thing i'm saying.

Being a laser boat takes the most amount of skill of anything in the game as you can easily get 2 shotted (most likely, 1 alpha from 2 near by mechs) who only have to look in your direction and press m1 to do so.

Nothing in your argument is reasonable to any one who can think with more then 3 synapses, which seems to be a small amount of people on the forums.

[Krivvan]

Those assaults and heavies have those same medium lasers.

I think lighter laserboats benefit from higher laser heat than heavier laserboats since they can disengage whereas heavier mechs can't.

And I've exclusively played the Jenner since May last year. I have sub 150 games in every other mech combined. Pretty much everything I do in MWO revolves around the Jenner.

I'm not saying lasers don't take skill. I agree lasers require some of the most skill in the game.

That doesn't mean I think ML heat should be lowered. I can think they require a lot of skill right now, but also are in a good place.

I notice you only ever talk about weapons from the perspective of a light shooting without seeming to realize that the same buff applies to everything shooting at the light. Why not consider things that actually would be buffs specific to light mechs?

That's why I'm saying I think small lasers should be buffed. Not medium lasers buffed.

Edited by Krivvan, 03 October 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Being able to do less then half of what assaults and heavies can do in a alpha strike, which also requires more skill as you need to be in the lion's den to be able to do it and need unwavering aim to optimize the damage output IS NOT over powered.

Hardly less than half. Good jenners are putting those shots into back armor which is worth five times more than front armor shots. Jenners actually do comparable damage to most heavies if theyre doing back armor shots.

medium lasers were really overpowered when they were at 3 heat. 4 heat does feel a little high though. Id like to try medium lasers at 3.5 heat.

[culverin]

CancR, on 03 October 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

This. this x1 million.

Ooops. Just in case, I should be more specific.
For the alpha strike in my previous example, It's an instant heat SPIKE, that goes up to 27.
I'm not saying you're stuck there forever, the heat will dissipate, but over time.


Just to further my Table Top example.
Each "round" is 30 seconds.
So your heat dissipation is X-amount over the span of 30 seconds.

Let's say you do a slight tweak to the MWO HBK-4P
HBK-4P

We switch over to double heat sinks, remove the smaller laser, and boost the engine to a STD 245.
We get 19 DHS resulting in 38 heat dissipation for 30 seconds.
That's -1.26 heat/s

You fire 2 medium lasers, that's 6 heat.
You barely slow down, for how long? Approximately 1 second.
You can pretty much chain fire 2 until the cows come home.

So if you want to shoot more weapons sooner?
You're welcome to do it, but you'll pay the price on that heat scale.



In summary,
Regardless of the current pin-point weapon convergence silliness.
If PGI had done a straight up translation of the table top, PPC, medium laser and alpha-strike boating wouldn't even be a discussion of play style.
And Ghost Heat? It wouldn't even need to exist.
We would have that hot and sweaty, slow mech, slow grind of attrition talked about in BattleTech lore.
This isn't Zone of Enders or Gundam, it's supposed to be teeth-gritting, frustrating, lumbering ovens of fusion powered death.



I live 20 minutes from PGI.
I would love to turn this into a table-top faithful, no boating type of game.
I have the MechWarrior, table top and lore background and a 12" MadCat I am currently detailing.
I wonder if I have what if the community would even vote me in an an unofficial liaison?

[Adiuvo]

CancR, on 03 October 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Being able to do less then half of what assaults and heavies can do in a alpha strike, which also requires more skill as you need to be in the lion's den to be able to do it and need unwavering aim to optimize the damage output IS NOT over powered.

if you played a jenner more then once a week, you would be saying the same thing i'm saying.

Being a laser boat takes the most amount of skill of anything in the game as you can easily get 2 shotted (most likely, 1 alpha from 2 near by mechs) who only have to look in your direction and press m1 to do so.

Nothing in your argument is reasonable to any one who can think with more then 3 synapses, which seems to be a small amount of people on the forums.

Light mechs have both the highest skill floor and skill ceiling in the game. If the rumored movement changes come through that ceiling will increase.

Heavies are more effective, yes, but that's a matter of balance related mostly to movement and not to medium laser properties. The medium laser, I would argue, is the best balanced weapon in the game along with the large laser. These things don't need to be changed so that it can be easier for you to fight an Atlas 1v1.

You already had this conversation on Peef's stream awhile ago, and for someone who is apparently so much smarter than anyone on the forums you shut up pretty quickly then.

[culverin]

I would argue that the medium laser is "THE" weapon.
It is the 1:1 ratio that everything else should be based around.
It's the meter stick that you use to measure everything else.

So let's say the Medium Laser is perfectly balanced.

What do you think is out of balance with it?

[OneEyed Jack]

Because what we really need is for Jenners to be able to spam their 6 ML faster, putting 30 points at a time pretty much wherever they want against a big, slow mech to be able to balance against being on-shot by tho.... oh, wait....

That's right. PGI has already nerfed the hell out of pretty much any chance to actually kill a light without putting numerous separate shots into the same location, but that's pretty easy to do because they're so big and slo...... oh, wait....

That's right. But at least after they've spammed the hell out of everything and need to cool, they'll be vulnerable since they can't break off and .... oh, wait......

[culverin]

OneEyed Jack, on 03 October 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Because what we really need is for Jenners to be able to spam their 6 ML faster, putting 30 points at a time pretty much wherever they want against a big, slow mech to be able to balance against being on-shot by tho.... oh, wait....

That's right. PGI has already nerfed the hell out of pretty much any chance to actually kill a light without putting numerous separate shots into the same location, but that's pretty easy to do because they're so big and slo...... oh, wait....

That's right. But at least after they've spammed the hell out of everything and need to cool, they'll be vulnerable since they can't break off and .... oh, wait......

I'm a Jenner pilot and I totally agree with you there.

Perfect weapon convergence + Non table-top BattleTech heat scale is to blame.

See my post above in regards to the heat scale.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2809185

[Xanquil]

I think all weapons should be returned to TT heat levels. I also think heat sinks should vent heat every 5sec, instead of 10. The major problem with the current heat is that it changes the weight of the mech by requiring more heat sinks to do the same job that was done in TT. This is one of the reasons that stock mechs suck so much.

[Rascula]

CancR, on 02 October 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Yes. This again.

As a light exclusive pilot, im tired of getting screwed over by pgi who hasn't the first clue about game balance.

It was bad enough in the olden days to now that a light pilot can have to go up almost all heavy and assaults that can hide behind having far more armor, and enough firepower to 1-2 shoot lights.

The same was true in MW4, yes, however lights where the best kept secret of that time, as you can conciser that MLs where direct hit damage for 3 heat, and cycled in .75 seconds. Lights could do allot of damage really fast, hitting hard for allot of heat and running.

Fast forward to mechassault: online and not only have lights be massively impeded in their ability to deal damage in making lasers a beam attack, which I was fine with when heat was normal, the ability do it multiple times effectively has been massively hindered with ML's, the bread and butter of lights, having no heat eff. between ML's getting heat jacked up to 5 (from 3...What the actual ****?) and ghost heat penalties if you are brave enough to run the Jenner F (which is my favorite) multiple weapon heat penalties .

And what do lights get in return to keep them among the ranks of mercs? NOTHING. There is still nothing stopping people from running all heavy and assaults so they can one shot lights, and maps have been made even smaller so they can go from having allot of options to escape in MW4, to none in this current game.

I'm really sick of your **** PGI. Stop holding the hands of the bad players who need to hide behind having more armor and firepower, and make the battlefield a little bit more even for all mechs since..ya know..you will never get around to role warfare like you promised in CB.

Perfect answer to the question of the day, which is: Just because someone has "Elite Founder" status does not mean they know i) what there talking about or ii) make any sense whatsoever..

[C E Dwyer]

This seems to have the touch of leroy jenkins about it so...i'll just shake my head and move on, as I've never had any problem with ml's on light meds heavies or assults..or even hunchbacks

[CancR]

Khobai, on 03 October 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Hardly less than half. Good jenners are putting those shots into back armor which is worth five times more than front armor shots. Jenners actually do comparable damage to most heavies if theyre doing back armor shots.

Stalkers run 6 ppc or 6 er large lasers (60)
Boarheads run 6 large lasers and a ac 20 (65)
Catafracts run quad UAC5 which if all fire with out jaming is (80) in the same amount of time it takes for the jenner's lasers to fire and then recycle.
Jagers run dual ac 20s (40)

All of which only two mechs have to turn and look at you for you, the jenner, to go from 100% to dead. and as when you run these as mobs in cluster and focus fire, and take out a fully armored Atlas, is far more viable then a light shooting a measily 20-36 damage to the RT that a light will do, esp since the light becomes locked once committing to fire so he can get the full effect of the beams, where all the massive mechs for the most part, can protect them selves with twisting after they fire as they only need to be on target when they hit the fire key.

Krivvan, on 03 October 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Those assaults and heavies have those same medium lasers.

I think lighter laserboats benefit from higher laser heat than heavier laserboats since they can disengage whereas heavier mechs can't.

And I've exclusively played the Jenner since May last year. I have sub 150 games in every other mech combined. Pretty much everything I do in MWO revolves around the Jenner.

I'm not saying lasers don't take skill. I agree lasers require some of the most skill in the game.

That doesn't mean I think ML heat should be lowered. I can think they require a lot of skill right now, but also are in a good place.

I notice you only ever talk about weapons from the perspective of a light shooting without seeming to realize that the same buff applies to everything shooting at the light. Why not consider things that actually would be buffs specific to light mechs?

That's why I'm saying I think small lasers should be buffed. Not medium lasers buffed.

the difference being is that Jenners, and all lights as I said in the original post, ML's are bread and butter of lights. Where heavy and assaults have the leisure of being able to multi fire multi AC/PPC/LRMS/LL to weaken the target then finish them with the MLs as they can fit so many more heatsinks in, that the mediums they use for the finishing blow, hardly reg on the heat scale.

Lights cant opt out for big weapons which out sacrificing to much to ultimately be in effective. They rely on being able to deal a solid amount of damage consistently which was taken away...Why? No one was talking about MLs at all up till Huncback 9 ML builds became popular. At the same time as poptarting was the most popular build at the time, with a secondary mention to streak builds, where the 'meta' of the day. HTe poptarters went to the forums in mass to cry about hunchbacks ruining their day since they where fast to close the distance, and once in their face could easily outclass them in damage (Which they are spouse to do since they are brawlers) PGI, being equally bad at anything require skill or thinking nerfed them up to 4 heat rather taking the proper stance which THAT IS WHAT THE **** HUNCHS ARE SPOUSE TO DO.

Lights suffered even more though. They have little to take out to compensate for a sudden increase of 4-6 extra heat per shot and most unfairily had to cut their damage output to still have enough heat eff. to contribute to battle al the while more and more hot maps have been instructed making the already suffering class, suffer even more.

The Anti-thoughtfulness crowd who want to keep the game dumbed down so they can be good at it have provided the coffin for MW, and Star Citzen will be the final nail.

No where in your foe argument is any situation or historical data about the way MW:O used to be played and how the past effected the current meta, nor can you be bothered to even think about such things. all you provide is brash opinion only geared to keep the ability to keep up to pace between the weight classes as wide as possible for a false sense of accomplishment of skill (much in like a TF2 'pro' compared to that of a quake pro.)

As far as Small and Small pulse lasers: They should have a buff but it should be heat and cycle time. They ought to be made clear that they can fire faster then MLs. I'd like to see them at half the cycle of a ML, so there is a clear choice of DPS or having more of a punch to take off weak components effectively and run

[CancR]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Light mechs have both the highest skill floor and skill ceiling in the game. If the rumored movement changes come through that ceiling will increase.

Heavies are more effective, yes, but that's a matter of balance related mostly to movement and not to medium laser properties. The medium laser, I would argue, is the best balanced weapon in the game along with the large laser. These things don't need to be changed so that it can be easier for you to fight an Atlas 1v1.

You already had this conversation on Peef's stream awhile ago, and for someone who is apparently so much smarter than anyone on the forums you shut up pretty quickly then.

Peef ended up agreeing with me so, there's that.

This post is for all lights and mediums. This is actually the second time I posted something on this very topic, the first got over 100 likes. But the PGI kiss-***** drove them away from the forums, and from MW:O. PGI is disenfranchising more people then they are gaining but seem to think they will appeal solely to the PGI diehards to stay afloat.

The forever bad do cry that any weight class shouldn't be able to 1v1 any other weight class, but that is patently false.

PGI as I already said, balances the game to the bad players though. Taking out the Ammo explosions of old, taking out the CB mechanic where you exploded after the third shutdown, and allowing just about any mech to full 180 in a half sec they come out of shutdown has only made heavy and assault easier to play, and lights harder.

[Mcgral18]

Actually, no Cataphract can mount 4 UAC5s, only the Ilya can mount 3. Jaegers can mount 4, but that's with 100-125 shots.

4 heat for MLs is acceptable. If we had heat penalties, I would welcome 3 heat back, but as it is the jenner will always go 150 KMh no matter how hot it is. If we had the penalties, if it ran that hot it would slow down, lose accuracy and risk shutdown. They are not in a bad spot as it is. Only gripe I have is that the PPC and MLs recycle at the same pace.

[Toong]

CancR, on 03 October 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Peef ended up agreeing with me so, there's that.

This post is for all lights and mediums. This is actually the second time I posted something on this very topic, the first got over 100 likes. But the PGI kiss-***** drove them away from the forums, and from MW:O. PGI is disenfranchising more people then they are gaining but seem to think they will appeal solely to the PGI diehards to stay afloat.

The forever bad do cry that any weight class shouldn't be able to 1v1 any other weight class, but that is patently false.

PGI as I already said, balances the game to the bad players though. Taking out the Ammo explosions of old, taking out the CB mechanic where you exploded after the third shutdown, and allowing just about any mech to full 180 in a half sec they come out of shutdown has only made heavy and assault easier to play, and lights harder.

Okay. Just so we're clear, you realize that just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they are "PGI diehards" (or "PGI kiss-*****" for that matter, whatever the heck it means anyway). They might be disagreeing with you because they actually think you're wrong.

And what's this tin hattery about PGI balancing the game to bad players? Last I checked, they were balancing weapons against other weapons, as evidenced by their constantly talking about weaponry and how it stacks against other weapons. I've never seen a dev mention anywhere that they were changing a weapon because too many new/low skill players were getting destroyed by it. I have no idea where you got your information.

Same goes with ammo explosions, They still happen. And there was never any mechanic where you automatically died on your third overheat, so I don't know where you got that idea either. Or this claim that 'mechs can "full 180 in a half sec they come out of shutdown," especially in reference to heavies and assaults.

Like seriously, are you just basing this rant off of a dream you had, or something?

Edited by Toong, 03 October 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Light mechs have both the highest skill floor and skill ceiling in the game.

Actually I would say Mediums have a higher skill floor/skill ceiling. Mediums have all the disadvantages of both Lights and Heavies with none of the advantages. On top of that youve got terrible scaling issues that make it very easy to pinpoint your hit locations relative to your tonnage/armor.

When knockdowns are added back into the game you could definitely make a case for Lights having a higher skill ceiling. But right now Mediums are the hardest mech by far to excel at because youre literally playing a mech thats inferior to other weight classes in every category. At least Lights are the best at one thing, Mediums are the best at nothing.

Edited by Khobai, 03 October 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 03 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Actually I would say mediums have a higher skill floor/skill ceiling. Mediums get all the disadvantages of Lights with none of the advantages. On top of that youve got terrible scaling issues.

I'd say that the scaling issues are partly responsible for the lack of advantages--right now mediums look more like small heavies (or in some cases they look like giant heavies like the Kintaro that towers over a Jagermech), whereas they should look like large lights instead (harder to hit).

Edited by FupDup, 03 October 2013 - 05:49 PM.