136 replies to this topic

[Navy Sixes]

Sandpit, on 10 October 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I tend to agree although you don't have numbers to prove and support it. It doesn't seem like the community is growing. It feels very stagnant. You can scream vocal minority, silent majority, players don't visit forums because they enjoy the game, etc. but the bottom line is that any gaming community that is growing at a good pace has an influx of players and ideas on the forums generally speaking.
Even if it WAS true for the minority and majorities there would still be new players becoming more active in the community. Those that do post as new players generally get blasted by other members for not being a new player and have their thoughts, ideas, and critiques dismissed and then get attacked on a personal level.

Plenty of new faces in the PUGs. Anyone can see it. The trollish nature of the MWO Forum community has chased away most newcomers. You can't read six responses into any advice or suggestion thread without someone calling someone else a "dumba**" or warning people that MWO will be dead in a year and they shouldn't give PGI a dime.

Flame threads with shopped-up photos of soon to be released mechs to tilt players into thinking they are broken before they've even come out. Vetran players making new accounts so they can complain and say they are a new player that is uninstalling and will never play MWO again. ERPPC-boaters who post long lists of numbers and say "numbers don't lie, and that's why ghost-heat is unfair," but leave out any numbers that contradict their arguments. People who assert that PGI should listen to their ideas in one thread, and in another say they wish PGI would fail so another company could take over.

This forum is chock full of liars who want this game to fail "because PGI lied." I'm starting to think the best thing a new player can do is stay away from these forums and figure out the game on their own.

Too many trolls, here. Not enough players.

[Heffay]

Jakob Knight, on 10 October 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Thus, I maintain that CW, by definition, involves split queues. You may disagree, but you will have to be more comprehensive in your explanation of how you can have a working CW without division of players within the game.

Very simple: CW is for 12 mans.

Shall I simplify that for you?

[RG Notch]

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 October 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm starting to think the best thing a new player can do is stay away from these forums and figure out the game on their own.

Hey PGI agrees with you, look at all the help they give new players here and in game.

[Sandpit]

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 October 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Plenty of new faces in the PUGs. Anyone can see it. The trollish nature of the MWO Forum community has chased away most newcomers. You can't read six responses into any advice or suggestion thread without someone calling someone else a "dumba**" or warning people that MWO will be dead in a year and they shouldn't give PGI a dime.

Flame threads with shopped-up photos of soon to be released mechs to tilt players into thinking they are broken before they've even come out. Vetran players making new accounts so they can complain and say they are a new player that is uninstalling and will never play MWO again. ERPPC-boaters who post long lists of numbers and say "numbers don't lie, and that's why ghost-heat is unfair," but leave out any numbers that contradict their arguments. People who assert that PGI should listen to their ideas in one thread, and in another say they wish PGI would fail so another company could take over.

This forum is chock full of liars who want this game to fail "because PGI lied." I'm starting to think the best thing a new player can do is stay away from these forums and figure out the game on their own.

Too many trolls, here. Not enough players.

I agree with a lot of wht you say but it starts with ignoring when you can and calling out and hitting the report button when you can't. too many people seem to want to take it to a personal level instead of actually discussing the game. white knights call dissenters trolls, trolls call proponents a {Noble MechWarrior} , and it goes on and on. I disagree with a LOT of people but that doesn't mean I call them a poopy head and discount their ideas. when possible I try to present my ideas and reasons. that's what these forums should be about. I still fear we are reaching stagnation at this point which is just bad. All of our ideas on CW for instance are mostly conjecture because we don't have specifics yet.

[Jakob Knight]

Heffay, on 10 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Very simple: CW is for 12 mans.

Shall I simplify that for you?

Certainly, if you can square that with the guiding principle that CW is something that is to be open for all players, not just premade 12-man groups (and that is what 12 mans are). The option is to go with full 12-man premades, but it also includes the options for lesser numbers of players to participate in a similar system to the PUGs (as you yourself pointed out by noting how Lone Wolf pilots can fill in for vacant spots if they are available), as well as unrated games. Not all players are going to have access to a Dropship to initiate planetary attack, but all players must have the ability to fight to gain Loyalty points when they want to do so, whether there is an attack with an open slot available or not.

That means you will have both organized 12-man premades being sent against other 12-man premades on selected planets, groups with fewer organized teams together with Lone Wolf players being put together for general Factional missions, and the unrated PUG and 12-man games outside of CW. This setup means a separation of players will occur first between which players are playing in Factional games, and which are playing unrated games, then further separate based upon factional selection of each player and if they are joining an organized or general Factional game.

No matter how you look at it, there are going to be at least three separations of players (PUG, Factional, and then by Faction), since you cannot have unrated games as rated games, and put pilots of competing factions as allies in the same rated game.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 10 October 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Heffay]

Jakob Knight, on 10 October 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Certainly, if you can square that with the guiding principle that CW is something that is to be open for all players, not just premade 12-man groups (and that is what 12 mans are).

That's fairly standard. You want to raid, you get a group. World of Tanks is the same way.

This is normal and expected. You should wait for the House or Lone Wolf CW options to see if either of those give you the end game you are looking for.

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 10 October 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

[/size]

That's fairly standard. You want to raid, you get a group. World of Tanks is the same way.

This is normal and expected. You should wait for the House or Lone Wolf CW options to see if either of those give you the end game you are looking for.

I don't think you see what he's getting at. You HAVE to have split queues of some kind when you have factions, mercs, and lone wolves. You will no longer have pugs just getting together in a group to drop. You drop with other members of your faction or unit or you lone wolf it (still not entirely sure how that's going to work). It mainly depends on HOW CW is rolled out. If CW is implemented as many of us think it might be then there is no other game. It's not an endgame, it's the metagame. Heffay did you play MPBT? Many of us did and we are working under the idea that this cw will be very similar to how MPBT implemented things. We could be completely wrong but none of us will know for sure until we get more details on how it will work for sure

[RG Notch]

Jakob Knight, on 10 October 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Certainly, if you can square that with the guiding principle that CW is something that is to be open for all players, not just premade 12-man groups (and that is what 12 mans are). The option is to go with full 12-man premades, but it also includes the options for lesser numbers of players to participate in a similar system to the PUGs (as you yourself pointed out by noting how Lone Wolf pilots can fill in for vacant spots if they are available), as well as unrated games. Not all players are going to have access to a Dropship to initiate planetary attack, but all players must have the ability to fight to gain Loyalty points when they want to do so, whether there is an attack with an open slot available or not.

That means you will have both organized 12-man premades being sent against other 12-man premades on selected planets, groups with fewer organized teams together with Lone Wolf players being put together for general Factional missions, and the unrated PUG and 12-man games outside of CW. This setup means a separation of players will occur first between which players are playing in Factional games, and which are playing unrated games, then further separate based upon factional selection of each player and if they are joining an organized or general Factional game.

No matter how you look at it, there are going to be at least three separations of players (PUG, Factional, and then by Faction), since you cannot have unrated games as rated games, and put pilots of competing factions as allies in the same rated game.

Umm didn't they say at the launch event reveal that there would be no more instant action type matches like we have now with mixed rosters? Didn't they say every single match would count towards the front movement? How that works with only for 12 mans sounds problematic.

[Sandpit]

RG Notch, on 10 October 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Umm didn't they say at the launch event reveal that there would be no more instant action type matches like we have now with mixed rosters? Didn't they say every single match would count towards the front movement? How that works with only for 12 mans sounds problematic.

that's what i'm thinking. Once cw is implemented there is no longer a "pointless endless match after match" Everyone will be involved in the galactic conflict of the inner sphere. I'm just curious as to how exactly they plan to roll it out. I am hoping i'm completely wrong with feeling that the community hasn't been growing much. The number of players will be a huge factor when it comes to cw.

[MechFrog1]

Tycho von Gagern, on 10 October 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Plenty of new faces in the PUGs. Anyone can see it. The trollish nature of the MWO Forum community has chased away most newcomers.

1. PGI has stated that most players do not frequent the forums and thus aren't witnesses to this "trollish nature"
2. The game itself is as unfriendly to a new player as I can imagine. If you're looking for a reason why new players aren't flooding the game, I might look at the crummy reviews and the new player experience.

Trying to blame the community for the game's problems is the position that will most assuredly result in the most harm for MWO. This community isn't any more or less "toxic" than any other. We aren't some special meanie pants snowflakes who don't also play a variety of other games and participate in those communities.

There isn't something about Battletech/Mechwarrior fans that make us any more or less amicable than any other gamers. I suggest you look elsewhere for the catalyst in this unfortunate equation.

Edited by mint frog, 10 October 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

RG Notch, on 10 October 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Umm didn't they say at the launch event reveal that there would be no more instant action type matches like we have now with mixed rosters? Didn't they say every single match would count towards the front movement? How that works with only for 12 mans sounds problematic.

Yes. However, it's faction players that play for the fronts. 12-man premades (which will more than likely be almost exclusively Merc Corps) don't play for fronts, they play for the planets beyond the fronts. When enough of the Merc controlled planets beyond the fronts changes toward one side or the other, the front changes, and then that opens up more planets for the Merc Contracts beyond the new expanded front. The Mercs' outcomes affect where the Faction player's fronts will be, and the faction players outcomes on the fronts affect the where the Merc Corps contracts will be.

[Nekki Basara]

Man, it's a good thing PGI are following the advice in that article. I'd hate to see what'd happen if they didn't.

ETA:

DirePhoenix, on 10 October 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

Yes. However, it's faction players that play for the fronts. 12-man premades (which will more than likely be almost exclusively Merc Corps) don't play for fronts, they play for the planets beyond the fronts. When enough of the Merc controlled planets beyond the fronts changes toward one side or the other, the front changes, and then that opens up more planets for the Merc Contracts beyond the new expanded front. The Mercs' outcomes affect where the Faction player's fronts will be, and the faction players outcomes on the fronts affect the where the Merc Corps contracts will be.

[Citation needed]

Edited by Nekki Basara, 10 October 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

[Nekki Basara]

Yeah, thought so. You kind of made stuff up and added it to the "house/merc" "front/contract" mechanic suggested in the presentation.

[Riptor]

Lonestar1771, on 08 October 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Wasn't an attempt at a derail, slugger. Obviously you missed the point though. Seriously cant even agree with people these days without some {Dezgra} taking it all wrong.

Oh it wasnt? Then please do tell... what was that attempt of discrediting him then suposed to achieve? The text i quoted sure had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Infact pointing out that hes not part of DHB anymore and that that is "telling" accomplished exactly what again in this discussion? Ahyes... right... smokescreen to hide the fact that you actually have nothing worthwhile to say.

Quote

[color=#959595]Yes. However, it's faction players that play for the fronts. 12-man premades (which will more than likely be almost exclusively Merc Corps) don't play for fronts, they play for the planets beyond the fronts. When enough of the Merc controlled planets beyond the fronts changes toward one side or the other, the front changes, and then that opens up more planets for the Merc Contracts beyond the new expanded front. The Mercs' outcomes affect where the Faction player's fronts will be, and the faction players outcomes on the fronts affect the where the Merc Corps contracts will be. [/color]

Merc units will also partake in the battles for the frontlines in one form or another. Be it through contracts or as single players.

Merc units have to farm loyality points for a given house before they are even allowed to fight for planets. They can only gain these loyalty points as a unit when they actually play the game. Heres the thing thought: There was no mention of a special que for merc vs merc only. Also contracts are posted by the houses against other houses not against other merc groups.


Fact is house units will be able to form 12 man groups, theres nothing keeping them from this or forming their own "house-unit unit" it will be like what all the units are right now. Teams with their own teamspeak forming 12 mans

I think, and thats completly my opinion here and nothing official, that these 12 man house units will have to fight in the same que that the 12 man merc units fight in to fullfill their contracts to gain LPs. So mercs will face both other mercs and organized 12 man house units.

All these games will effect the status of the frontlines, cause each of these games will produce points for one side or the other. But i think the impact of 12 mans on the frontlines will be minimal at best, there are way to many PUG matches fought compared to 12 mans.. so dont worry, the frontlines will not actually be ruled by organized teams. The mass of PUG matches vs 12 man drops is simply to high for that to happen

[Sandpit]

Riptor, on 11 October 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Oh it wasnt? Then please do tell... what was that attempt of discrediting him then suposed to achieve? The text i quoted sure had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Infact pointing out that hes not part of DHB anymore and that that is "telling" accomplished exactly what again in this discussion? Ahyes... right... smokescreen to hide the fact that you actually have nothing worthwhile to say.



Merc units will also partake in the battles for the frontlines in one form or another. Be it through contracts or as single players.

Merc units have to farm loyality points for a given house before they are even allowed to fight for planets. They can only gain these loyalty points as a unit when they actually play the game. Heres the thing thought: There was no mention of a special que for merc vs merc only. Also contracts are posted by the houses against other houses not against other merc groups.


Fact is house units will be able to form 12 man groups, theres nothing keeping them from this or forming their own "house-unit unit" it will be like what all the units are right now. Teams with their own teamspeak forming 12 mans

I think, and thats completly my opinion here and nothing official, that these 12 man house units will have to fight in the same que that the 12 man merc units fight in to fullfill their contracts to gain LPs. So mercs will face both other mercs and organized 12 man house units.

All these games will effect the status of the frontlines, cause each of these games will produce points for one side or the other. But i think the impact of 12 mans on the frontlines will be minimal at best, there are way to many PUG matches fought compared to 12 mans.. so dont worry, the frontlines will not actually be ruled by organized teams. The mass of PUG matches vs 12 man drops is simply to high for that to happen

See, I think this is another interesting aspect. Merc units will have to obtain certain levels of loyalty with factions in order to be allowed to do "more important" stuff. This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not going to place a newly formed ragtag bunch of mercs in charge of my presidential guard duty on their first mission.
I'm going to use them as my expendable cannon fodder on those fringe planets so I can save my assets and resources. Then as they prove they are capable and earn notoriety (I'm hoping notoriety is the mechanic used for mercs instead of LP) they'll gain access to more lucrative contracts with increasing importance.

I still don't see how they are going to balance drops and queues, which is what I'm most concerned about.

[Riptor]

Sandpit, on 11 October 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

See, I think this is another interesting aspect. Merc units will have to obtain certain levels of loyalty with factions in order to be allowed to do "more important" stuff. This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not going to place a newly formed ragtag bunch of mercs in charge of my presidential guard duty on their first mission.
I'm going to use them as my expendable cannon fodder on those fringe planets so I can save my assets and resources. Then as they prove they are capable and earn notoriety (I'm hoping notoriety is the mechanic used for mercs instead of LP) they'll gain access to more lucrative contracts with increasing importance.

I still don't see how they are going to balance drops and queues, which is what I'm most concerned about.

I think they will keep the 12 vs 12 and pug ques as a basis.

If you drop with your merc unit as a 12 man you will face either other 12 man merc groups or 12 man house units, in any case you will keep facing pre mades.

As a four man group i think it wont change much from what we have now, the only difference is that people will get sorted by faction then.

In any case the mercs are placed accordingly to what contracts they are currently running and ofcourse the faction they enter battle with.

Another version could be that merc units just like lone wolfs will fight without being able to choose a faction, to fill up the ranks so to speak. That would rob them of alot of control as to whom they gather LP with thought so i hope this is the less likely version.

Those are atleast my ideas on how this all could go down wich i base on what makes most sense to me. Just so that we are in the clear and no {Honorable Mechwarrior} gets the wrong idea.

[Lonestar1771]

Riptor, on 11 October 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Oh it wasnt? Then please do tell... what was that attempt of discrediting him then suposed to achieve? The text i quoted sure had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Infact pointing out that hes not part of DHB anymore and that that is "telling" accomplished exactly what again in this discussion? Ahyes... right... smokescreen to hide the fact that you actually have nothing worthwhile to say.

oh, pardon me oh forum police. It had everything do with the topic. Just because you are an ***** and missed the implied agreement with the actual person I was talking to, doesn't mean it was a derailment. In actuality, the fact that you tried to accuse me of derailing was more of a thread derailer than what I said.

Secondly, who gives a flying ****? Why do you care. Everybody knows Heffay is a {Dezgra}.

[Riptor]

Cimarb, on 10 October 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

While I generally agree, they haven't actually announced how faction life or lone wolf life will work, so I wouldn't get too worried about it, yet. I assume they will have a bit more CW involvement even for lone wolves than what Heffay said, but he is right otherwise.

No, no he isnt, hes hardly correct about anything.

It was allready stated that Lonewolfs would fill out the ranks if there werent enough players in a drop when it came to community warfare, that lone wolfs would be solo freelance mercenaries that would also get their own contracts in the future and that at first there isnt really any benefit in staying a lone wolf.

PUG matches will still count towards the border control battles. Even in a PuG match you will be able to grind loyality points for your chosen faction so if your side wins a battle this counts towards the victory of your choosen faction on the border with the corresponding enemy you face.

Also it was allready detailed how faction units live will look like. You swear allegiance to a house to start out with, you grind Loyality points and gradually unlock the right to join different house units that are non player controlled, being allowed to use their camos and decals.

Player controlled house units are a future feature that wont be implemented at first and might take some time till we even get to see that.

There are no player controlled house units so pug matches have to count towards border control. Every player who aligned themselves to a faction will "produce" victory points or whatever they call it for their faction if they win a match, it does not matter if they are in a PuG group (where they will still be dropped with only their faction + lonewolfs) or in an organized 12 man or 4 man group.

At no point was it said that you had to drop in a group while being a house unit player to participate in CW. In fact house CW is for everyone while Merc unit play is for those that want a tighter custimizable organisation.

From everything we have seen and heard there is absolutely no necesarity to "opt in" into CW cause CW will be the standard modus operanti for the game once its released.

Or to put it simply: Every action that produces LP for you also has an effect in CW on your choosen faction.

Lonestar1771, on 13 October 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

oh, pardon me oh forum police. It had everything do with the topic. Just because you are an ***** and missed the implied agreement with the actual person I was talking to, doesn't mean it was a derailment. In actuality, the fact that you tried to accuse me of derailing was more of a thread derailer than what I said.

Secondly, who gives a flying ****? Why do you care. Everybody knows Heffay is a {Dezgra}.

Heffay might be what he is but his allegiance to a unit has nothing to do with any points he brought up. If you want to redicule him do it with what material he presents and not with stuff that happened outside the discussion.

Once again your silly attempt to redicule him for not being part of DHB anymore and what that had to say about his character had absofuckinglutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Your refusal to admit to this only shows that you should not partake in any serious discussions whatsoever. That and your willingness to fling around personal insults like their on a steam sale to anyone who calls you out on your BS.

Edited by Riptor, 14 October 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Livewyr]

Article skips 2 facets of the PGI PR debacle:
Major 1: "This game is 1PV only, don't even talk about 3pv" -> "We're bring in 3PV but guarantee 1PV won't have to deal with 3PV if they don't want to." -> "Enjoy your 1PV/3PV mix. It was our position at the time."

Minor 1: Russ' PR finesse.


(Example of problem 1 easier to understand:
INVESTMENT:
"I'm building this awesome car, it has an awesome engine with great gas mileage, want to invest on some awesome wheels to go with it while we build?"
"Sure great!" <expends finances on wheels>

DELIVERY:
"We were going to do the fuel efficient model, I swear.. but instead we've gone with a ford minivan engine. Here's your wheels. And no, you can't get a refund on your wheels."

Enjoy.

Edited by Livewyr, 18 October 2013 - 11:36 AM.