19 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

It seems that all people want to do is rush cap anymore. I can only see this getting worse as the matches start to have meaning. There really needs to be something done because it makes the game so boring. When it becomes boring people quit. Just saying. How about make the other team have to cap out your color and then cap it in their own like they do in conquest. With the conquest timers. Might encourage some fighting rather than going for the easy win.

Edited by Steel Claws, 03 October 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

>15% of matches end in Cap.

[SnowdogJJJ]

Give this a read :
How To Solve Premature Capulation "cappers"

http://mwomercs.com/...lation-cappers/

[Joseph Mallan]

Do we really need to make changes for >15% of games???

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 October 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Pooknuckles]

The concept of "capping" is just a BS arbitrary game mechanic, anyways. "Hey guys! The war is over! We sat on their little square longer than they sat on ours. Now, I know you can still see the whites of their eyes, as you're still looking right into their cockpits, and you likely just shot a rocket up that other guy's ***... but you can shake hands and go home now. Sure... 3/4 of the enemy forces are still right on top of us, but it's all good... they'll leave us alone, because we won!"

All snark aside, base capping is a lame way to win or lose. It has it's place in the fight... usually when one team is down to 2-3 mechs it's a good idea to try it, but it seems many light pilots make it their first order of business. The main forces are just getting to the center of the map, and the damned cap alarm starts going off. It screws with the whole flow of the battle, as one (or both) teams now have to make a judgement call: continue the attack or break off and defend. It sounds good on paper as a strategic move, but in practice it takes the one solid aspect of the game (the combat) and tosses it out in favor of a mad scramble to prevent the cap, in the hope that we can get back to the combat.

A cap win isn't a win... it's a sad way to end a match. I'd rather lose 0-12 than win by cap. If I want strategy beyond simply besting the other team in battle, there's conquest.

Or maybe I've just been PUGing to much. There's always that.

[Steel Claws]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 October 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

>15% of matches end in Cap.

It may be that only 15% end in cap but of the matches I've played recently, a large percentage involve a base rush of one form or another. From there a couple of things can happen: If the team getting rushed pulls back 100% and is in good position the rushers are killed off. Or - half the defending team goes running off toward the enemy cap leaving their team to be butchered. If the cap mechanic wasn't so attractive fewer teams would rush off toward it and the fighting would be better. It would also pretty much kill the four or five light rush cap which is very tough to defend against. The problem also is that as CM comes in the matches start to mean something and the incentive to rush increases. Since the reduction in the ability of mechs to do damage has come about we have seen a steady increase in the amount of base rushing occurring. It needs to be knipped in the bud. Besides, if I wanted to win by capping I'd play conquest - which actually sees more fighting than assault ironically enough.

Edited by Steel Claws, 03 October 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Xmith]

Cappers are not concerned with collecting c-bills. It's like playing pro sports. These players got their money. Now it's time for them to win games. I got plenty of c-bills. I'm sure a lot of pilots do. I played competition sports for most of my life and the only thing that's on your mind is winning the game. Nothing else matters.

Ok, since no one else has said it, I will. Defend your base... A simple concept actually.

Edited by Xmith, 03 October 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Earl White]

Xmith, on 03 October 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Cappers are not concerned with collecting c-bills. It's like playing pro sports. These players got their money. Now it's time for them to win games. I got plenty of c-bills. I'm sure a lot of pilots do. I played competition sports for most of my life and the only thing that's on your mind is winning the game. Nothing else matters.

While I can understand that attitude in tournaments it's a bit strange to me that people can feel that competitive in every single game, regardless of how low the stakes are. I can't imagine what they must be like to hang out with irl, do they compete in every aspect of life? is life just one big p1ss.ing contest?

I both admire and pity hyper competitive players, as they can stay in that heightened state of competitiveness for long periods of times (or so it seems), but they also tend to be more negatively affected if they do lose, or make any mistakes at all, must be quite a roller coaster for them.

Edited by Earl White, 03 October 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Trynn]

The question is why are you playing...
Are you playing to go smash smash robot? are you playing for victory, are you playing because you love the BT Universe and are trying to make believe you are a real mechwarrior?

Face it Capping is a legit and allowed victory condition...(its the first listed) once people start fighting as a unit it may be attempted more, but less successful. Think about it if repair and rearm where active or this was "real" you would be first in line to have a cap win. Additionally if you are dead, what does it matter, If you are alive. then you make it through another match without taking a hit to your K/D (if that matters to you)

I agree with EW, Victory is the only thing that matters

And then there is the Cap pull, where the intention is not to Cap (but will if ignored) but to slip the enemy force or cause confusion and anger (which apepars to work on many people)

[Steel Claws]

Xmith, on 03 October 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Cappers are not concerned with collecting c-bills. It's like playing pro sports. These players got their money. Now it's time for them to win games. I got plenty of c-bills. I'm sure a lot of pilots do. I played competition sports for most of my life and the only thing that's on your mind is winning the game. Nothing else matters.

Ok, since no one else has said it, I will. Defend your base... A simple concept actually.

Trynn, on 03 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

The question is why are you playing...
Are you playing to go smash smash robot? are you playing for victory, are you playing because you love the BT Universe and are trying to make believe you are a real mechwarrior?

Face it Capping is a legit and allowed victory condition...(its the first listed) once people start fighting as a unit it may be attempted more, but less successful. Think about it if repair and rearm where active or this was "real" you would be first in line to have a cap win. Additionally if you are dead, what does it matter, If you are alive. then you make it through another match without taking a hit to your K/D (if that matters to you)

I agree with EW, Victory is the only thing that matters

And then there is the Cap pull, where the intention is not to Cap (but will if ignored) but to slip the enemy force or cause confusion and anger (which apepars to work on many people)

Your both missing the point:
1. Yes it is a valid method of win but all in all it's pretty boring. If it devolves to this, how many will keep playing.

2. If it is bad now it's only going to get worse with CW. When winning actually does matter to everyone - the quick and easy win will look far more attractive.

3. It's a poor substitute for a real game mode. Stand in the square. Pfff. Make them blow something up. Preferably something that shoots back.

All I'm saying is that it needs to be harder than running five lights around the outside of the map and doing a quick cap before anyone can react. Four or five lights can cap out a base before you can cover 1000 meters.

Edited by Steel Claws, 03 October 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Very few games that I've seen involve delilberate cap rushing. The deliberate times include premades full of lights looking to pad their win/loss stats (nothing you can do vs this as a PUG, but it's pretty rare overall so not gonna complain about it too much), and a PUG with really low drop weight or disconnects that miraculously realizes it's their only chance.

A cap rush is *usually* caused by one of the following:

1: Both teams pass each other by on different paths without making contact, and end up at each other's bases.
Solution: Get some intel! Ask your lights to scout for the enemy. Ask if anyone has made contact, since it may not show on radar with ECM.

2: An ambitious light pilot heads to the enemy cap too early. Perhaps they are trying to ninja, perhaps trying to confuse the enemy. The result is that the enemy rushes towards YOUR cap, because they are not committed to battle yet and don't have any better options.
Solution: Don't get on the enemy cap before the battle is joined.

3: A team down and out tries a desperate move on the cap, or they cap because chasing down that last mech or two with ECM is too much of a pain.
Solution: This is how it's supposed to work.

In other words, hit Y and communicate with your team. It only takes one person to start it up, and you'll be surprised at how responsive some PUGs can be.

[Xmith]

I find fast caps to be rare. When they do happen, I just exit and move on. Not a big deal to me. It's like, you won, we lost, I'm out of here. Cya

[Kjudoon]

About 60% or so of all matches I'm in with Conquest end in cap victories. I've been seeing one team somehow roar out to a 350 to 115 start with only two caps while the other team can barely get production out of 3. I think this has to do a lot with specialied light mechs that are capture freaks. They hit a cap, get double production out of it and zip to the next one letting it grind the clock faster, never having to hold what they take.

If we we want to be more "realistic", Conquest mode is wouldn't mean victory unless it is caps are only held as long as someone is standing on it uncontested. Then every held cap must be maintained till the timer runs out. This would simulate arriving evac or reinforcements or surrender orders. You can also end up with "Seige" Mechanics as mechs would dig in and hold on as best they can, rather than just go out slugging, relying on light mechs to stay on getting points.

Then Conquest, like Assault becomes much more believable. I dunno if this will make impact with any devs, but it can't hurt.

My other gripes/whines/points/issues/whatever with capping is:
1. Not enough XP for doing it which screws lighter mechs when they're the cause of victory.
2. Happens too fast with cap accelerators. Either points need to increase or speed decrease. Too many 7 minute cap victories.
3. Capping bonus should not be split among all mechs, only those who actually DO capping much like damage.

[Zerberus]

Kjudoon, on 04 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

About 60% or so of all matches I'm in with Conquest end in cap victories. I've been seeing one team somehow roar out to a 350 to 115 start with only two caps while the other team can barely get production out of 3. I think this has to do a lot with specialied light mechs that are capture freaks. They hit a cap, get double production out of it and zip to the next one letting it grind the clock faster, never having to hold what they take.

WTF?

There is no way to "double production", and whoever told you there is is an ***** that doesn`t have a clue.

The main reason a team pulls ahead 300-150 oir so early: because they actually cared about the onbjectives, and split their force to accomplish them faster instead of setting their brains collectively to neutral and blobbing towards the middle of the map, completely oblivious to the cap point that`s standing unmarked right in front of them when tehy get there.

Quote

If we we want to be more "realistic", Conquest mode is wouldn't mean victory unless it is caps are only held as long as someone is standing on it uncontested. Then every held cap must be maintained till the timer runs out. This would simulate arriving evac or reinforcements or surrender orders. You can also end up with "Seige" Mechanics as mechs would dig in and hold on as best they can, rather than just go out slugging, relying on light mechs to stay on getting points.


Then Conquest, like Assault becomes much more believable. I dunno if this will make impact with any devs, but it can't hurt.

Why exactly? Because a battlemech is in any way designed to operate an oil rig? Or just so you don`t have to worry about a single light winning the round by thinking more and moving faster than a team of 12 people waiting in the middle of the map forr the last enemy to show himself??

Quote

My other gripes/whines/points/issues/whatever with capping is:
1. Not enough XP for doing it which screws lighter mechs when they're the cause of victory.

Agreed

Quote

2. Happens too fast with cap accelerators. Either points need to increase or speed decrease. Too many 7 minute cap victories.

Disagree as vehemently as possible. 3 mechs with accelerator is still slower than 1 without used to be. The times were raised so the hulk smash robots blob could have enough time to RTB and defend.

AT THEIR EXPLICIT DEMAND.

And changed absolutely nothing except that it now wastes 3 minutes of everyone`s time to watch a cap slooooooooooooooowly tick down when everybody knows that nobody is coming back to defend because they might scratch their mech.

Seriously, the day I see one or more mechs even TRY to defend /chase off the cappers, we can have this argument. It`s not the capper`s fault that the blob doesn`t want to play with the toys they asked for. TBH the longer cap times prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was never about the cap timer all along, but about lazy heavy and assault pilots with 150 engines and 91868 pt alpha strikes not being arsed to def. And they still can`t.

Quote

3. Capping bonus should not be split among all mechs, only those who actually DO capping much like damage.

Cap bonus is not split AT ALL.

It is a fixed amount for every mech that actively participated in the capping process.

Edited by Zerberus, 04 October 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Aside from my stance that capping is a legitimate way to win a fight, countered by a defense of said location, there are two changes which I think would help this situation.

1) No capping for the first 5 minutes.
2) No capping until 5 of the opposing team has been defeated.

The number (5) is just an arbitrary number here, subject to testing and tweaking. Use either one or both, I think they would offer some variables into an unpopular (yet still legitimate) game mechanic.

[Roadkill]

I'm in the minority, I think, but I actually feel like the current setup is just about right. If anything, it's too hard to cap in Conquest.

If you're getting fast capped in Assault, even on Terra, then you're doing it wrong. Instead of asking for a 5 minute limit on capping, maybe try defending your base for those 5 minutes? Do some scouting to find the approach routes of the enemy... reposition your forces... you know, strategery 'n' {scrap}.

[Navy Sixes]

Xmith, on 03 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

I find fast caps to be rare. When they do happen, I just exit and move on. Not a big deal to me. It's like, you won, we lost, I'm out of here. Cya

This. When I lose because my team was destroyed, we were outfought. Well done. When I lose because my team was capped, we were outmaneuvered. Well done. On to the next game.

Kjudoon, on 04 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

About 60% or so of all matches I'm in with Conquest end in cap victories... If we we want to be more "realistic", Conquest mode is wouldn't mean victory unless it is caps are only held as long as someone is standing on it uncontested. Then every held cap must be maintained till the timer runs out.

I was to understand that capping was the point of Conquest, so even if 60% of Conquest games ending in cap is a low estimate, isn't that how it should be? If you're looking to rack-up kills, Conquest really isn't your game. As for making a team "hold" the cap points, what if there aren't enough players left alive on either team in the end-game to hold their points?

cdlord, on 04 October 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

1) No capping for the first 5 minutes.
2) No capping until 5 of the opposing team has been defeated.

I disagree. I think that these "fixes" reward teams who bring the biggest, slowest guns and the worst planning, and conversely punish the teams who rely on speed and tactics.These fixes either give the slow blob plenty of time to reach the enemy's base and cap themselves (in which case it doesn't "fix" anything; it just negates one of the few advantages of playing a fast mech and lets assaults get in on the cap.) or it negates one of the few advantages of playing a fast mech (already outtonned and outgunned) by forcing them under the enemy's guns before they can attempt a tactical victory.

There already is a fix for fast mass-capping: smart tactics. If you don't have units that can (or you have kill-happy fast units that won't) RTB quickly, don't just march away from your base. If you had fast mechs, but they're destroyed while the enemy's survive, assume those enemy zippers are headed for your base. If you get near half-way across the map with no sign of the enemy, assume at least a big portion of their forces are circling your position and heading for your base. In each of these situations, you must think before you press on. If you make a bad decision you should learn from your mistake and enter the next fight wiser for your troubles.

I never understand the problem some have with mass-capping. You want to find the enemy and kill them? Once they attempt a mass-cap, you've found the enemy... go kill them!

Edited for grammar

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 04 October 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Trynn]

Roadkill, on 04 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm in the minority, I think, but I actually feel like the current setup is just about right. If anything, it's too hard to cap in Conquest.

If you're getting fast capped in Assault, even on Terra, then you're doing it wrong. Instead of asking for a 5 minute limit on capping, maybe try defending your base for those 5 minutes? Do some scouting to find the approach routes of the enemy... reposition your forces... you know, strategery 'n' {scrap}.

Exactly.

If 5 light mechs have gotten around you you have done something wrong.

[Kjudoon]

Zerberus, on 04 October 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Seriously, the day I see one or more mechs even TRY to defend /chase off the cappers, we can have this argument. It`s not the capper`s fault that the blob doesn`t want to play with the toys they asked for. TBH the longer cap times prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was never about the cap timer all along, but about lazy heavy and assault pilots with 150 engines and 91868 pt alpha strikes not being arsed to def. And they still can`t.


Cap bonus is not split AT ALL.

It is a fixed amount for every mech that actively participated in the capping process.

Right here. I do chase off cappers when I can. Problem is my heavy isn't fast enough... yet, but raining LRM pain does a good job of that too.

Tycho von Gagern, on 04 October 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I was to understand that capping was the point of Conquest, so even if 60% of Conquest games ending in cap is a low estimate, isn't that how it should be? If you're looking to rack-up kills, Conquest really isn't your game. As for making a team "hold" the cap points, what if there aren't enough players left alive on either team in the end-game to hold their points?

That was my point about having a mech standing on a cap. If you don't have more mechs in the end than the other team to stand and hold ground, you haven't really held it. You killed everything and moved on and it's taken over by the next guy who comes forth. Cap shouldn't produce points unless someone stays on the point. It should not be assumed that it's automatically held. That's my point about holding till the end of time. If you're left with 2 mechs each and each one grabs a point when the clock strikes 15, it's a push, nobody really won. A lots of fire and fluff and the lines don't move. If you kill everyone off, then you got a win because nobody can contest your control over the points. If it's 11 on 1 and you manage to be the lone mech who wins somehow by capping, did you really win?

I dunno. Conquest is more about manouvering, agreed. I'm just trying to figure out mostly when I go capping in my light mech, my scores are absolutely pitiful to the point of dissueding me from bothering because your Cbill rate is maybe half that of munchkins who go out and get killed in the first 5 minutes but take someone with them. Meanwhile you win the game by being smart and not getting shot.

Oh, and as a final insult to injury this last game I ran into a cap that would not recognize me and another mech, causing us to lose because we could not stop the only point they had scoring. Glitch? Probably. Irritating? yep.

[MitzaVolchenko]

Problem goes away for the anti-cap squad when we get Deathmatch as an option.

For now, I don't see it as a problem. When I am running lights, I will go cap to ~25% to get it started just in case and then peck to death that one guy that comes back to stop me.

If an opposing team gets me by rushed cap victory, so what? fast game, fast money.