24 replies to this topic

[Felio]

I'm an experienced light pilot, and I have a few mediums -- my Yen Lo Wang got me into the 1,000 damage club. I have a Quickdraw. But I'm trying out my new Victor, and while I'm getting a few hundred damage, I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing at any particular moment.

Even with all the armor, at times I feel just as fragile as my Commando. Because I don't have the speed to escape, I have to commit fully to every action. It's just not clear what actions I should take and how best to support the team in this role.

[Sadistic Savior]

The goal should not be damage totals. The goal should be kills.

Heavier mechs can mount more of the big weapons. Light mechs typically have to peck opponents to death, using their speed as their defense. Heavy mechs use big weapons to kill with pinpoint damage instead. Two AC/20 or guass shots to a cockpit or the back CT will kill a lot of times, for example. In a light mech, precision shots are lot harder to do because you are running around all the time, spamming shots as the opportunity presents itself. Lights tend to attack close up as well. Because light mechs use spam damage, damage totals matter more (they are pecking to death). But a heavy mech can kill without high damage totals because their big weapons can punch through specific points.

So with the victor I would concentrate on hitting from a distance rather than brawling. The Jump Jets should aid in mobility for positioning for a shot, but will not help you close up like they would light mechs. If you try to play a Victor like a light mech, it is a recipe for disaster...it's profile is too big and it moves too slow for that.

EDIT - As for the armor, I think that is kind of an illusion. The difference is not as much as people might think. Internal structure and weapons/engine/ect have the same hit points on them no matter what your mech's weight is (they didn't in TT, but I think they do in MWO).

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 03 October 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[Itsalrightwithme]

What you're describing is a common dilemma among light/medium pilots moving to the assault class, and you've hit it right in the head: you don't have speed to escape from most enemy mechs. So you have to be really deliberate in your maneuvers and always think of an exit plan. In a Victor, you have the fastest jump-capable assault mech, you should leverage that.

In playing an assault, I think along these three points when I consider engaging an enemy mech:
1. Can I kill that enemy mech quickly enough before getting myself trapped?
2. Can I sustain that engagement long enough to turn the tide of battle?
3. Can I put in enough damage without risking my position?

The first question leans towards a high-alpha build that can kill targets quickly. AC20 Victors, SRM boat Stalkers, all fall into this line.

The second leans towards the canonical Atlas brawler: it has to be able to have good damage output versus heat, because let's face it, an Atlas can't outrun anything else.

The third suggests PPC Victors, ERLLas Stalkers, and even LRM boats.

When pugging, I always pay attention to whether my teammates are following me or not; I do this much more than when I play lights and mediums.

So, I don't know if the above helps or not. I think you already know what the challenge is, I hope it streamlines your mech build and piloting.

[DDDs]

Itsalrightwithme, on 03 October 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

In playing an assault, I think along these three points when I consider engaging an enemy mech:
1. Can I kill that enemy mech quickly enough before getting myself trapped?
2. Can I sustain that engagement long enough to turn the tide of battle?
3. Can I put in enough damage without risking my position?

These are good points here, and probably apply even more to slower heavies since they have less armor than assaults.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Sadistic Savior, on 03 October 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The goal should not be damage totals. The goal should be kills.
snip

I'd second this. Damage does not always equate to usefulness. Kills and Assists do more for the team than having a four-figure pewpew number.

I have no experience in Assault chassis beyond a match in a trial Atlas waaaay back in CB, but the rest of SS' post seems about right according to what I've witnessed players doing in their Assaults.

[Wolfways]

Felio, on 03 October 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Even with all the armor, at times I feel just as fragile as my Commando.

That's because the extra armour isn't that much of a help.
Defense = armour + speed.
The bigger the mech, generally the slower it gets, and speed is a bigger help in defense than armour.
In your Commando when you take hits they get spread all over because you're moving so fast that it's almost impossible to hit the same component over and over, yet an assault is slow enough that you can mostly concentrate all your firepower on one component, like the ct.
A big mech gains a little armour but loses a lot of "speed tanking".

[Bront]

Things to remmember in an assault mech:

1) You're not invincible. Sure, you bring more armor than some mechs have weapons, but armor can still be torn though.
2) Think before you move. You have to commit earlier than faster mechs, so be aware of where you're heading and where you need to go at all times. You are NOT a reactionary mech unless you're defending a spot.
3) You are the priority target. Assaults are the mechs other mechs fear when they round a corner. As a result, they're also the mechs folks shoot first.
4) You usually can't do it alone. Sure, you can win most 1 on 1 battles, but being outnumbered is still bad. Move with your team.
5) Use your tonnage. You can generally mount a ton of weapons and armor, of mount a little less of one or the other and move at a good pace (in some chasis). If your loadout or armor resembles a light, you're probably doing it wrong.
6) Watch your critical slots, they can be a premium. They're reasons to not use Endosteel or to mount a larger engine simply for the HS space.
7) Be aware of XLs. Many assaults simply shouldn't mount them, as it reduces their survivability by quite a bit. Think twice before mounting one.
8) You're slow, deal with it. Even a Victor or Awesome isn't going to top 90 kph. Mount AMS, make sure you have a reasonable amount of back armor, and be sure to carry weapons that can reach out and touch your opponent in some way (MLs and AC20s count, but longer range weapons are even better).
9) You're your team's damage sponge. Don't be afraid of taking a hit. Sure, this may sound like it flies in the face of #1, but you can take almost twice as much punishment as your smaller comrades, so if you're not taking it and living, they're taking it and dying (See #4).
10) You can still help with capping and base defense. Seriously. Sure, a Jenner can get back to base faster, but your stalker can support him with LRMs when he's there by himself. And you can hang in the base longer to slow capping. Meanwhile, in conquest, step on that conquest point for a bit. It helps everyone on your team. let the lights move on to the next point while you finish up the current one.

I started on Jenners and then went Victors. It was tough, and Stalkers were even tougher later. It's a very different mindset.

[Eaerie]

Move as a unit. Even in a PUG group you can usually find 2 or 3 other slow mechs to keep pace with (even if they dont realize you are doing it)
If you do happen to be alone make your moves very controlled, use cover as you advance.
Do not chase off after that faster lighter mech cause he is running to his friends.
Do not go charging over that ridge unless you are fairly sure you can handle everything on the other side.

Oh and remember those 2 "buddies" that have been advancing with you in a PUG match will BAIL the first sign return fire and leave you hanging making a winnable combat a loss of your mech instead.

[Sadistic Savior]

Eaerie, on 03 October 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Move as a unit. Even in a PUG group you can usually find 2 or 3 other slow mechs to keep pace with (even if they dont realize you are doing it)

THIS.

Resist the urge to lone-wolf it. Isolated assault mechs are easy targets.

[juxstapo]

Low damage + positive KDR = <S>

A more pertinent question for you would be "How do I Victor"?

Answer: much like you pilot most mediums.
I adore my Victors, own every variant down to the Dragon Slayer. So it kinda pains me to say that they are not premier, front line assault mechs. They don't soak damage. That is seemingly reserved for Atlai and Highlanders, and perhaps to some extent Stalkers... ish. My Victors like me best when I feed them ginormous XL engines and a full complement of JJs. Trying to set a Victor up to use like you would the big boys is wasting the advantages of the chassis (which is mobility), and taking up all the weight of an assault without really providing the benefits that the heavier machines do.


AC/20 Victors (the -9S and the -9B) shine as "support brawlers". Additional heavy knife range damage dealers for spots where the line has worn thin and become ripe for a push. The DS and 9K, well, mine at any rate. Serve a similar purpose, but out at medium range.

For a fun time. The next match you drop in your Victor, find yourself a brawler Atlas (or Highlander) buddy. Stay kind of behind him during the initial probe, then when the fight starts in earnest and your pal starts getting stuck in... add your two cents, or twenty cents. Poptarting over your Atlas and unloading on whomever he is contending with not only racks the respectable damage that a Victor can deal onto said target, but it is also rather psychologically jarring to have one assault brawler in your face suddenly turn into two. If an opponent gives your Atlas particular trouble, and conditions are correct for it, (i.e. the rest of his team isn't immediately behind him), leverage that collection of jump jets and sail right over both of them. The poor fool will suddenly find himself beset by high-burst-damage on either side.

ok, sorry for the rant. Synopsis: Victors drive a lot like medium brawlers.

EDIT: Point of interest, if you take a "standard" Ac/20 victor. (autocannon, single srm4/6 rack, and two mLas). Add endo and DHS and snatch out the 320 standard, you have enough space for a 385XL and nearly 10 tons of ammo, heatsinks, and AMS.

Edited by juxstapo, 03 October 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[Flyto]

Others' comments about group support, and not being caught alone, are very valid.

The things I'd add are,

1. Try to think carefully about positioning all the time. Both at a strategic level - Where are the enemy moving? Never let yourself get surrounded - and at a tactical level. With a Victor, make use of the combination of jumpjets and arm weapons - can you get yourself above or below your opponent such that you can shoot up or down at them, and their torso-mounted arsenal can't hit you? (I haven't played Victors, but this has got my Highlanders a fair few victories against Atlases and the like.

2. Remember that you have armour. You shouldn't squander it (and if you never learnt to torso-twist to redirect damage with the lights, learn that now), but you can use it. It may be worth slowing down to carefully line up a shot on an exposed body part rather than taking it at full tilt and missing.

3. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Even in a PUG, a simple cry of "under light attack, E6" will often bring a jenner or two running. You have a little more time to type in an assault :-)

[employee24601]

I remember almost breaking out in a cold sweat trying to level my Altases from scratch. So slow as to feel almost helpless, should you round a corner to come across a couple of enemy mechs with your "support" having buggered off in the opposite direction.

Constant thoughts of "Am I at risk of being left out in the cold?" should preceed every move an Assault pilot makes. Simply stay with the heard if you can. As you say, once you commit you're in it until the end of that skirmish.

I tend to fight from a distance, and only brawl it up if the odds are in my favour or if I'm forced to. It is fun though when the battle changes and you suddenly realise you're in the ****. Then, I full throttle into some poor ******* and pound away until one of us goes down.

As an aside, I started with the Atlases and do love them so. But, I find myself using my Yen-Lo-Wang almost as often as an AS7. There's just something about that Zombie Mech with an AC20 running around at over 70kph that pleases me greatly.

[Sadistic Savior]

I would add this: Do not be afraid to retreat.

Assaults can take more punishment than other mechs. If you round the corner and it looks hopeless, fall back and you might survive. Your instincts will say "screw it, I am dead anyway...CHARGE", but retreat is often viable even if you get beat up in the process.

[Lictor]

do something like this with your victor, then play like an oversized centurion with jump jets and CONSTANTLY move to distribute damage, jump around constantly, learn to aim while jumping. . .

VTR-9B

[Nick Makiaveli]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 03 October 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I'd second this. Damage does not always equate to usefulness. Kills and Assists do more for the team than having a four-figure pewpew number.

I have no experience in Assault chassis beyond a match in a trial Atlas waaaay back in CB, but the rest of SS' post seems about right according to what I've witnessed players doing in their Assaults.

Not always, no. Focused fire is much better than random shots, however absolutes are almost always wrong.

Given that the only way to get a kill or an assist is to deal damage, then dealing maximum damage is the goal. This is a team game, not a K/R ratio personal contest.

You and SS are promoting the kind of attitude that leads to "kill steals". By this I mean running in front of your allies so as to block their shot so you can get the kill, or switching targets so that you can be the only one shooting at it etc.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Nick Makiaveli, on 06 October 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Not always, no. Focused fire is much better than random shots, however absolutes are almost always wrong.

Given that the only way to get a kill or an assist is to deal damage, then dealing maximum damage is the goal. This is a team game, not a K/R ratio personal contest.

You and SS are promoting the kind of attitude that leads to "kill steals". By this I mean running in front of your allies so as to block their shot so you can get the kill, or switching targets so that you can be the only one shooting at it etc.

If I promote that attitude, it is not intentional. I would never advise someone to block a teammate's target or to steal their kill for the sake of getting it yourself. It's why I said 'and Assists' in my post - as long as the target dies I don't care who gets the kill.

Yes, the only way to kill or injure something is to damage it. However, it is possible to kill 10 targets with 500-some damage, if you hit them in the rear CT every time. Having four-digit damage scores is impressive, but merely shows that one cannot efficiently damage their targets.

To reiterate, then: I do not condone kill stealing, as it goes against the team ethic of the game. I do condone getting a target killed as quickly and efficiently as possible, without hitting it randomly all over the paperdoll to achieve a massive damage score.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 06 October 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

If I promote that attitude, it is not intentional. I would never advise someone to block a teammate's target or to steal their kill for the sake of getting it yourself. It's why I said 'and Assists' in my post - as long as the target dies I don't care who gets the kill.

Yes, the only way to kill or injure something is to damage it. However, it is possible to kill 10 targets with 500-some damage, if you hit them in the rear CT every time. Having four-digit damage scores is impressive, but merely shows that one cannot efficiently damage their targets.

To reiterate, then: I do not condone kill stealing, as it goes against the team ethic of the game. I do condone getting a target killed as quickly and efficiently as possible, without hitting it randomly all over the paperdoll to achieve a massive damage score.

In that case, I apologize for saying otherwise. I also appreciate you not spazzing on me and instead stating your rebuttal intelligently and in a mature fashion.

I think something we all need to remember is that one time does not make a pattern. If you see someone run into your line of fire and make the kill shot, it doesn't automatically mean they did it on purpose, ie with intent to kill steal. Sometimes people make mistakes or just get excited and rush in etc. Doesn't mean they had ill intent.

I know I've walked a mech into FF because I forgot it wasn't one of my elited lights, but instead a near stock heavy that will move forward 100 meters after I tell it it stop. Same token I've come upon a fight in progress, did a drive by on an Atlas with a couple medium lasers and scored the kill shot and gotten cussed for stealing "their" kill. Dude...it was an Atlas and I did max 10 damage...not like I planned to hit the ammo or anything.

[Bront]

This is a team game. Don't worry about kills. Worry about damaging your opponent so a teammate can take him down. I know some really good players with really low K/D ratios (like .2) because they leave the kills to others to mop up and focuses on neutralizing larger threats.

LRM boats and lights are good for cleaning up damaged mechs, and if the mech doesn't run, go ahead and take them down. But don't think some kill is "yours" just because you've widdled him down. Chase him down, and you're more likely to find yourself out of position, and if he's running, he's not firing (and maybe he can't fire).

Edited by Bront, 06 October 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Bront, on 06 October 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

This is a team game. Don't worry about kills. Worry about damaging your opponent so a teammate can take him down. I know some really good players with really low K/D ratios (like .2) because they leave the kills to others to mop up and focuses on neutralizing larger threats.

LRM boats and lights are good for cleaning up damaged mechs, and if the mech doesn't run, go ahead and take them down. But don't think some kill is "yours" just because you've widdled him down. Chase him down, and you're more likely to find yourself out of position, and if he's running, he's not firing (and maybe he can't fire).

This...a win is worth more than a single kill as a rule. Especially if you make friends, and run with good players on a regular basis instead of random luck of the draw....

[Geek Verve]

Nick Makiaveli, on 06 October 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

This...a win is worth more than a single kill as a rule. Especially if you make friends, and run with good players on a regular basis instead of random luck of the draw....

Unfortunately (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), both a win and a loss provide the same C-bill reward. Currently, the only reward for winning is the fact that it typically means you have the opportunity to be in the match longer to rack up damage, assists, CD's and other things that add to that C-bill total.

I think if they reduced the reward for a loss (or doubled it for a win), it would go a long way toward promoting coordination and team tactics.