56 replies to this topic

[Gray 46rus]

Well, this suggestion was about solving boating problem without ghost-heat mechanics. After clan-tech announce I realized that it is even more usefull.
Let me introduce you an easy way to implement real Clan Omnimechs. All we need is a soft nerf of IS mechs. Wee have to limit hardpoints size to shorten the list of weaponry available to sertain mechs. Thus we make IS mechs less flexible in customization.

Take a look:
Here we have a Dragon 5N with 2 energy hardpoints in left arm:


As you can see, both hardpoints are limited to 1 crit slot, so you can mount there a Flamer, SL, ML or even MPL, but neither LL nor PPC. If you wish, you can mount there any equipment, that fits the size.

OK, let's take a look here:
This is Awesome 8Q right torso.


As you can see, one of hardpoins is larger then another. It can contain whatever energy weapon, including PPC.
As you can remember from books, Awesome is a fearsome mech, because it can mount... up to 3 PPCs. And what do we have in MWO? Stock AWS-8Q can't even make an alpha strike without shutdown.

Removing this restriction for the Clans, we can achieve that advantage of Clan mechs above the IS mechs. We don't need to make any additional restrictions i.e. fixed structure, heatsinks and engine.
Neither we need ghost heat any more.

Edited by Gray 46rus, 21 December 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[RandomLurker]

Putting ridiculous weapons on small mech's is a grand MW tradition. And a BT one for that matter. Look at the 35-ton Hollander:

[Gray 46rus]

RandomLurker, on 04 October 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Putting ridiculous weapons on small mech's is a grand MW tradition. And a BT one for that matter. Look at the 35-ton Hollander:

Gray 46rus, on 04 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

remember Hollander

Hollander was specialy designed to carry Gauss. Try to imagine Raven with such wunderwaffe on the arm
Neither Raven nor Cicada can do that, but Hollander can. Do we have Hollander in MWO? NO. Do you know why? No need.
Trying to refute my statement, you just proved it. I feel OK with Hollander, but not with Gauss-Raven or Gauss-Spider.

Edited by Gray 46rus, 04 October 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gray 46rus, on 04 October 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Hollander was specialy designed to carry Gauss. Try to imagine Raven with such wunderwaffe on the arm
Neither Raven nor Cicada can do that, but Hollander can. Do we have Hollander in MWO? NO. Do you know why? No need.
Trying to refute my statement, you just proved it. I feel OK with Hollander, but not with Gauss-Raven or Gauss-Spider.

Can we have a Hollander Build on a Raven? Yes, so we CAN have a Hollander in MW:O. It just looks like a Raven!

[Gray 46rus]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Can we have a Hollander Build on a Raven? Yes, so we CAN have a Hollander in MW:O. It just looks like a Raven!

Following your logic, we need just 8 mechs:
Light
Jumping Light
Medium
Jumping Medium
Heavy
Jumping Heavy
Assault
Jumping Assault.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes. But only until we have the Chassis we want. I can have a Ravander until I get a Hollander. Right now I have Orauder. Its a Marauder built on a Orion Chassis. Until I can have a Marauder Chassis, This will do. If it offends some I really don't care. I play to make me happy no one else.

[Szkarlat M]

I'm sorry, but no. Even in Classic Battletech any mech can carry any weapon as long as there are enough critical slots for it. There were no hardpoint size restrictions.

It was rare in the canon stories due to the expenses of customizing a mech. Just like the military today, you can put all sorts of gadgets and customisations on your weapons, yet the military prefers more basic standardised loadouts because it is cheaper.

In MWO there is no such economic consideration.

Ultimately it is what makes the different weight classes viable in this game vs say MW4. Light mechs being limited to light weapons would limit their effectiveness and the different variety of play styles.

And at the end of the day, in my opinion, game play, variety of play styles always trumps immersion in what makes a game good. Because if a game is super realistic and not fun, why bother.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well In CBT it was easier to write about the Canon Chassis, but yes as a House Military soldier many warriors got what the Command gave him/her. But we are Mercs mostly, and as such we can mo our Mechs to one degree or another.

[CDLord HHGD]

Your poll is flawed. While I do agree with sized hardpoints, there should be no division between the classes. The Panther is a good example of a light mech with a "large" energy hardpoint.....

I propose divinding hardpoints into two categories: Small and Large. Large hardpoints can fit Small weapons, but Small hardpoints cannot fit large weapons.

This way, light mechs with large hardpoints (Commando, Raven, Panther) will have a uniqueness and value over ones that don't (PPC Jenner anyone?).

Small Hardpoints
Energy
--TAG
--Small Laser*
--Medium Laser*
Ballistic
--Machine Gun
--AC2
--AC5*
Missile
--NARC
--SRM2*
--SRM4
--LRM5
--LRM10

Large Hardpoints
Energy
--Large Laser*
--PPC*
Ballistic
--AC10*
--AC20
--Gauss
Missile
--SRM6
--LRM15
--LRM20

*Includes variations of the same weapon; ie, pulse, er, LBX, streak.

[Gaan Cathal]

Gray 46rus, on 04 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Well, boating is a big problem. It destroy immersion, it makes battles rediculous, it makes MWO non-Battletech game.

These things are not true..

Gray 46rus, on 04 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

It's Battletech, baby. PPC is a formidable weapon, not needed to boating. Commando is not big enough to carry it. Gauss Rifle is too large for Raven (remember Hollander). Cicada can't manage AC/20 recoil. STOP THIS MADNESS!!! Give us true Mechwarrior.

And neither are these (barring PPC formidability). Especially amused by "no PPC on Commando!" when the Adder carries two.

[Gray 46rus]

cdlord, on 04 October 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Your poll is flawed. While I do agree with sized hardpoints, there should be no division between the classes. The Panther is a good example of a light mech with a "large" energy hardpoint.....

Panther (and Adder) is 10 tons heavier then Commando. It has PPC by the lore and it's OK. My suggestion is against those mechs that haven't this ability.
edited the poll to clarify my point. Please, re-vote

Edited by Gray 46rus, 05 October 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gray 46rus, on 05 October 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Panther (and Adder) is 10 tons heavier then Commando. It has PPC by the lore and it's OK. My suggestion is against those mechs that haven't this ability.
edited the poll to clarify my point. Please, re-vote

Re-voted....

So, the concept I provided does this as well.

[Colby Boucher]

Mike W, on 04 October 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but no. Even in Classic Battletech any mech can carry any weapon as long as there are enough critical slots for it. There were no hardpoint size restrictions.

It was rare in the canon stories due to the expenses of customizing a mech. Just like the military today, you can put all sorts of gadgets and customisations on your weapons, yet the military prefers more basic standardised loadouts because it is cheaper.

In MWO there is no such economic consideration.

Ultimately it is what makes the different weight classes viable in this game vs say MW4. Light mechs being limited to light weapons would limit their effectiveness and the different variety of play styles.

And at the end of the day, in my opinion, game play, variety of play styles always trumps immersion in what makes a game good. Because if a game is super realistic and not fun, why bother.

^^ this

[Gray 46rus]

Mike W, on 04 October 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Even in Classic Battletech any mech can carry any weapon as long as there are enough critical slots for it. There were no hardpoint size restrictions.

OK, let's reduce critical slots number for lighter mechs.
For exaple, Lights - 6 crit slots in arms and side torsos.
Medium - 8 srit slots
Heavy - 10 crit slots
Assault - 12 crit slots (as it is now)
Thus, light mechs with hand actuators will have only 2 free slots in arms (Commando, Spider, etc) - for Large Laser as maximum. Light mechs without hand and/or lower arm actuators (Adder, etc) - up to 4 free slots - enough for PPC.
BUT
There may be some exceptions, Hunchback or Hollander, for example. They may have unusual crit slot number (in some locations) for their weight class.
Thus, crit slots number become individual for each mech. This way some impossible in current system mechs (for eample, Marauder) becomes possible.

Edited by Gray 46rus, 06 October 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[Gray 46rus]

I can't believe that someone like this:

Edited by Gray 46rus, 10 October 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gray 46rus, on 10 October 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I can't believe that someone like this:

I didn't even vote - your poll is biased.
I have the choice to have your opinion or to be a {Richard Cameron}.

Thats sad - because I really really like your second suggestion.

Individuell Hardpoints....nothing global.
oh - and the K2 needs seriously more hardpoints

[FinsT]

imho, it'd be best if we'd have BOTH size-restricted hardpoints AND individual crit slots' setups.

And here's why.

To me, it seems utterly ridiculous that currently in MWO, an Atlas can have no more (not-in-the-engine, double) heatsinks installed than a Spider. I mean, Spider is like, TINY, and Atlas is like, HUGE. But, both can have up to 2 double heatsinks installed in each arm, and up to 4 installed in each side torso - i.e. both can install 12 double heatsinks max, no more, no less.

Silly eh?

And since those weigh exactly the same for both Spider and Atlas, we can't even suspect that heatsinks of various size ("class") are used on Spiders and Atlases; if that would be the case, then weight would change too, obviously. Yet it doesn't - a double heatsink is 1 ton for Spiders and Atlases and all other 'mech just the same.


P.S. So we end up having a tiny spider which can mount as many double heatsinks as an Atlas - and then we scratch our head how and why it can be possible. May be Atlases are just spiders with lot of "decorations" put on top of 'em? Eh? It's true? I got it right?

Edited by FinsT, 10 October 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Gray 46rus, on 05 October 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Panther (and Adder) is 10 tons heavier then Commando. It has PPC by the lore and it's OK. My suggestion is against those mechs that haven't this ability.

There are no mechs like that. Per TT rules (i.e. canon) it is absolutely, 100%, completely and totally doable to get a RVN-4X and rip the machineguns out of the arm, down-armour and engine it and slap in a Gauss rifle.

For one thing there are numerous Lights that carry fairly sizable LRM packs, like a Catapult's arm, say. LRM-15. And you can happily replace that missile pack arm with a PPC (-K2/-K3) ergo...you can replace the LRM pack in the Light with a PPC. We already have less customisation than BT, infact.

It's, like, breaking canon already, never mind adding more canon-destroying restrictions.

[Gray 46rus]

Gaan Cathal, on 10 October 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Per TT rules (i.e. canon) it is absolutely, 100%, completely and totally doable to get a RVN-4X and rip the machineguns out of the arm, down-armour and engine it and slap in a Gauss rifle.

So what's the difference between two 35-ton mechs? Just visuals?If BT submit WH40k fundamental rule "what you see is what you get", you'll never equip Raven with Gauss, because modified this way miniature trivially can't stay still (see my Gauss-Spider 3D compilation 4 posts earlier).
If tabletop rules are not detailed enough to prevent such exploiting, should we follow it despite the common sense?
There are lots of lore sources besides the tabletop.

Edited by Gray 46rus, 10 October 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Gray 46rus, on 10 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

There are lots of lore sources besides the tabletop.

Yup, and in plenty of those there are examples of everything from Frankenmechs to a single outsized weapon on a small chassis. But it was expensive, and left it with limited capability...rather like how putting a gauss on a spider severely limits your speed via engine size, armor, and the rest of your loadout.

I see no issue.