38 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Reflective\Reactive armor. You would be forced to build jack of all trades mech instead of boating one type of weapon. The ability to choose which section of your mech you'd like to make Reflective\Reactive would make torso twist protection more important as well.

The formula is simple - both types of armor protect 50% more against the said weapons but weight 20 armor per tonn instead of 30 as it is now. That way you have some sort of disadvantage against the opposite weapon type damage unless you are willing to add more armor to compensate.

How do you like the idea?

[Grisolm Redd]

It needs number tweaking but would certainly 'incentivise' balanced loadouts. People however would immediately have a carpfest and the qq would most likely intensify by orders of magnitude. I think if you got a spreadsheet together and made it look all official they might go for it.

You have my sword!

[ThunderGodThor]

No good.its only 3050 both of those armors arnt until the 3060's. http://www.sarna.net.../Reactive_Armor http://www.sarna.net...eflective_Armor

[kapusta11]

Well, you are right but gameplay-wise its good hell it's definitely better than gost heat. Thanks for the links btw, looks like I've messed up with the numbers a bit it should take critical slots instead of having different armor\tonn ratio, but it doesn't change the whole point.

About spreadsheets, there are tons of them already, if you like the idea discuss it here, maybe devs will read this topic.

[OneEyed Jack]

Not only do many mechs not have the option of multiple damage types, but boating simply isn't an issue, so there's no "problem" to "solve."

If you're looking for a way to replace ghost heat, forget it. If PGI has one rule they stick by, it's "never go backwards." Removing ghost heat would be going backwards. PGI may make some stupid decision but, by god, they stick by em!

[stjobe]

1. Not all 'mechs can be diversified (all-energy 'mechs, all-ballistic 'mechs)
2. Boating shouldn't be such a problem in the first place, since it's in canon.
3. It's the broken heat system and pin-point accuracy that is the root of the boating problem, not armour values or armour types.
4. The only way we'd ever get rid of Ghost Heat is if PGI went back and redid their broken heat system, and that's about as likely as the Clans coming next month.

[Team Leader]

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

1. Not all 'mechs can be diversified (all-energy 'mechs, all-ballistic 'mechs)
2. Boating shouldn't be such a problem in the first place, since it's in canon.
3. It's the broken heat system and pin-point accuracy that is the root of the boating problem, not armour values or armour types.
4. The only way we'd ever get rid of Ghost Heat is if PGI went back and redid their broken heat system, and that's about as likely as the Clans coming next month.

Once again Stjobe 100% correct. You're a pro

[Chemie]

might help in pugs but in 12 mans, you would bring both type of boats to counter.

[kapusta11]

OneEyed Jack, on 05 October 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

boating simply isn't an issue, so there's no "problem" to "solve."

Ghost heat very existence disproves that.

OneEyed Jack, on 05 October 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

many mechs not have the option of multiple damage types

True, some mechs don't have ballistic hardpoints but missile and energy are still there.

OneEyed Jack, on 05 October 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

If you're looking for a way to replace ghost heat, forget it. If PGI has one rule they stick by, it's "never go backwards." Removing ghost heat would be going backwards. PGI may make some stupid decision but, by god, they stick by em!

Ghost heat has no ligic behind and acts more like damage over time penalty (just like all heat in general) instead of dealing with boaters. Why not accept something that is better in all ways and encourages people to play more smart?

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

1. Not all 'mechs can be diversified (all-energy 'mechs, all-ballistic 'mechs)
2. Boating shouldn't be such a problem in the first place, since it's in canon.
3. It's the broken heat system and pin-point accuracy that is the root of the boating problem, not armour values or armour types.
4. The only way we'd ever get rid of Ghost Heat is if PGI went back and redid their broken heat system, and that's about as likely as the Clans coming next month.

Canon boaters designed to play specific role not being good vs all mech types in general.

I can understand why PGI don't want heat neutral mechs in their game its action (some sort) FPS after all but whats wrong with pin-point accuracy when the whole point is destroying specific sections of the enemies mech? Btw cool shots could solve flawed heat system, there are only few times you need that extra free heat, say 30% heat disipation once every 30 sec, 3 times per battle.

Edited by kapusta11, 05 October 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

kapusta11, on 05 October 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

silly {Scrap}.

The existence of ghost heat only proves that whiney morons are a problem, not boating. Boating is part of canon. Boating is only advantageous if there's a balance issue. Boating without a balance issue is only a matter of efficiency in design and ease of managing weapon groups, but will generally have significant weaknesses to counter. Boating is NOT a problem in and of itself.

Some mechs only have energy. Some mechs only have missiles. Your harebrained idea that the specialty armors would create diversity has absolutely no bearing in reality.

I in no way defend ghost heat and abhor it's existence. But that doesn't change the fact that it's already in and there's no way in hell they're removing it. And just because your short-sighted self thinks it would be better, doesn't make it so.

[kapusta11]

Different armor types isn't my idea, its in the canon and I'm sure it plays its role in it, guess which one exactly.

[Blacksoul1987]

Different armor types existed in mw4 and it didn't stop any of us from boating

[stjobe]

Blacksoul1987, on 05 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Different armor types existed in mw4 and it didn't stop any of us from boating

Theoretically, boating should be stopped by it not being the maximally effective strategy in all kinds of engagements, or against all kinds of targets.

That's never stopped anyone though. It's enough of an advantage in most kinds of engagements and against most kinds of targets, and it's easy to play to boot.

[kapusta11]

Blacksoul1987, on 05 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Different armor types existed in mw4 and it didn't stop any of us from boating

I must admit, I haven't played MW4 much but I bet there was almost no difference between ferro\standart and reflective\reactive armors in terms of protection (I mean were it 50% or less) OR damage dealt compared to armor values might not allow to see this difference. If I remember correctly Dual ClanLB20X\ClanUAC20 could down a mech in one shot.

Edited by kapusta11, 05 October 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

it actually was pretty effective I ran reflective on many of my mechs its just that boating was SOOOOOOOOO easy to deliver all of your damage accurately to one location with very little effort.

[FupDup]

The thing about boating is that it magnifies both the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment being boated. For instance, somebody boating SRMs will be absolutely useless at ranges exceeding 270 meters (and have hit detection issues). LRM boats will have very little to no self defense, run through ammo like nobody's business, be totally shut down by ECM spam and will be useless against brawlers inside of 180m or hillhumpers at any range. Energy boats like LL Stalkers run hot crazy fast and the nature of beam duration means that torso twisting and snap-shots are a good counterplay against them.

The list goes on. The ability to boat is not a problem. The only problem is/was certain weapons not having enough weaknesses for mechs boating them to have clear counters (i.e. pre-nerf PPCs were too damn versatile).



Another thing that I would like to point out is that pinpoint damage onto single locations is NOT caused by boating, so stop preaching that nonsense. Boating may facilitate it (make it easier), but mixed builds are just as capable of pinpoint damage as boats under the right conditions such as close range, large/slow targets, the target moving straight forwards at the shooter, and lasers because every single one of them is hitscan.

Ghost heat has nothing to do with reducing pinpoint damage, it's a crusade against boating because some people simply hate the thought of their opponents using more than 1-2 of the same weapon system. Ghost heat is for people who like to play a game where everyone just plays wheel of fortune with their loadout--such as a frankenmech with an LBX, Flamer, MPL, SRM2, LRM15, and AC/2.

Edited by FupDup, 05 October 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Zyllos]

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

1. Not all 'mechs can be diversified (all-energy 'mechs, all-ballistic 'mechs)
2. Boating shouldn't be such a problem in the first place, since it's in canon.
3. It's the broken heat system and pin-point accuracy that is the root of the boating problem, not armour values or armour types.
4. The only way we'd ever get rid of Ghost Heat is if PGI went back and redid their broken heat system, and that's about as likely as the Clans coming next month.

Just reiterating...

[PappySmurf]

OK MR.OP first off there has always been boating in MechWarrior. Second the problem is not boating or alpha shots its the un-ability of the larger mechs assaults/heavies/mediums to maneuver and get under cover. Right now MWO mechs are so un-maneuverable its like trying to drive a school bus and avoid a jet fighter. The mechs armors are weak also and the mechs are to slow so your just a walking punching bag for every weapon in the game boating/alpha shot/or not.

Edited by PappySmurf, 05 October 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[kapusta11]

I see stjobe's point, being boat able to deliver your whole aplha in one hit gives you advantage due to same weapon mechanic (same projectile travel speed, recycle times etc.), but since pinpoint accuracy is mandatory (otherwise bullet spread would turn this game into a TT with a dice roll) we should find another way around, different armor types solves this just fine. On the other hand, If projectile speed is not enough recoil might help, it would force you to correct your aim after each shot.

Edited by kapusta11, 05 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[FupDup]

In another thread I came up with an idea that can increase the durability of mechs across the board even if we keep convergence as-is. Basically, it's using TT armor and internals values but reducing the damage per shot of each weapon to match the damage per second of TT rather than damage per shot (makes damage less frontloaded, thus requiring more shots to do the same thing, and more shots means more likelihood of spreading your damage):

FupDup, on 04 October 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Completely separate and distinct from the OP's idea, I think that we could actually extend MWO's TTK for all classes by using the TT damage-per-second (and heat while we're at it) ratios of weapons with the armor and internal stats used in TT. I am using this thread for it because, as the thread's title implies, it's about armor being compared from here to TT so it does fit the topic at hand (but offers a completely different idea). Naturally, weapons that were terribad in TT such as the AC/2 would need to deal higher DPS than its TT counterpart in order for them to be viable.


For example, a TT PPC does 1 DPS (10 damage once every 10 seconds), and with MWO's cooldown of 4 that means it would now deal only 4 damage per shot and 4 heat per shot. Here is a list of one mech of every tonnage interval using max armor, and how many PPC shots it would take to core-out any of the following mechs under my system:

20 tons (Locust): 9 armor + 6 internals; 3.75 PPC shots (round up to 4)
25 tons (Commando) : 12 armor + 8 internals; 5 PPC shots
30 tons (Spider): 15 armor + 10 internals; 6.25 PPC shots (round up to 7)
35 tons (Jenner): 17 armor + 11 internals; 7 PPC shots
40 tons (Cicada): 18 armor + 12 internals; 7.5 PPC shots (round up to 8)
45 tons (Blackjack): 21 armor + 14 internals; 8.75 PPC shots (round up to 9)
50 tons (Hunchback): 24 armor + 16 internals; 10 PPC shots
55 tons (Kintaro): 27 armor + 18 internals; 11.25 PPC shots (round up to 12)
60 tons (Dragon): 30 armor + 20 internals; 12.5 PPC shots (round up to 13)
65 tons (Catapult): 32 armor + 21 internals; 13.25 PPC shots (round up to 14)
70 tons (Cataphract): 33 armor + 22 internals; 13.75 PPC shots (round up to 14)
75 tons (Orion): 35 armor + 23 internals; 14.5 PPC shots (round up to 15)
80 tons (Awesome): 38 armor + 25 internals; 15.75 PPC shots (round up to 16)
85 tons (Stalker); 41 armor + 27 internals; 17 PPC shots
90 tons (Highlander): 44 armor + 29 internals; 18.25 PPC shots (round up to 19)
95 tons (Banshee): 45 armor + 30 internals; 18.75 PPC shots (round up to 19)
100 tons (Atlas): 47 armor + 31 internals; 19.5 PPC shots (round up to 20)
(Note that the armor distribution above was arrived at using the SSW offline mech designer program, which automatically distributes the armor based on what typical TT mechs use. Players can obviously move some of their rear armor forward to the front (at the risk of worse defense against anklebiters)).




Let's compare this to what happens with MWO's doubled armor and doubled internals with TT damage per shot values (as opposed to damage per second). The following table uses the armor and internal health values arrived at from doubling the ones listed above:

20 tons (Locust): 18 armor + 12 internals; 3 PPC shots
25 tons (Commando) : 24 armor + 16 internals; 4 PPC shots
30 tons (Spider): 30 armor + 20 internals; 5 PPC shots
35 tons (Jenner): 34 armor + 22 internals; 5.6 PPC shots (round up to 6)
40 tons (Cicada): 36 armor + 24 internals; 6 PPC shots
45 tons (Blackjack): 42 armor + 28 internals; 7 PPC shots
50 tons (Hunchback): 48 armor + 32 internals; 8 PPC shots
55 tons (Kintaro): 54 armor + 36 internals; 9 PPC shots
60 tons (Dragon): 60 armor + 40 internals; 10 PPC shots
65 tons (Catapult): 64 armor + 42 internals; 10.6 PPC shots (round up to 11)
70 tons (Cataphract): 66 armor + 44 internals; 11 PPC shots
75 tons (Orion): 70 armor + 46 internals; 11.6 PPC shots (round up to 12)
80 tons (Awesome): 76 armor + 50 internals; 12.6 PPC shots (round up to 13)
85 tons (Stalker); 82 armor + 54 internals; 13.6 PPC shots (round up to 14)
90 tons (Highlander): 88 armor + 58 internals; 14.6 PPC shots (round up to 15)
95 tons (Banshee): 90 armor + 60 internals; 15 PPC shots
100 tons (Atlas): 94 armor + 62 internals; 15.6 PPC shots (round up to 16)


I am unsure if this system provides "equal" benefit to all classes or not, but what I can say is that all mechs would become at least somewhat more durable than they are now.



A side-effect of this system is that many cool-running stock builds can actually run cool for once, and our heat dissipation could actually keep up with the heat output. This would also allows us to get away with adding in heat penalties that would normally not work too well with our current overly-punitive heat system.