532 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Ngamok, on 08 October 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Then everyone would run Energy.

Faulty Generalization. I use 11 tons of LRM Ammo back under R&R in closed Beta, and I paid for full reloads unlike others who abused the mechanic.

[Riddler9884]

Somehow I get the feeling sometimes PGI changes values to see how they fit, regardless of how that weapon behaves in relation to another from the same group for from the other 2 groups (energy, ballistic, missile).

You would think they would have some sort of battle value system or formula to tune the over all classes and weapons them selves.

Every once in a while they will spike up the heat or Nerf the damage on some weapon creating a new favorite weapon or build of the week.

[Karl Streiger]

Riddler9884, on 09 October 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Every once in a while they will spike up the heat or Nerf the damage on some weapon creating a new favorite weapon or build of the week.

You are right - that was how it was for 7months until the gauss charge and the PPC´s were brough back in line....
afaik currently there is no FOTM...or you exploit the Spider
duno how it would look like when the HSR detection for SRMs will work again - i expect that the damage will be reduced with the patch.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Karl Streiger, on 09 October 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

You are right - that was how it was for 7months until the gauss charge and the PPC´s were brough back in line....
afaik currently there is no FOTM...or you exploit the Spider
duno how it would look like when the HSR detection for SRMs will work again - i expect that the damage will be reduced with the patch.

Someone is not paying attention - yes, there is a FOTM, Dual UAC5s, Dual AC5s, heavy ballistic long range builds. And, despite you sounding like a broken record, the data and math do not support that the ERPPCs, which is the subject of the OP, are in line, but that currently it is unbalanced in favor of ballistics.

[Livewyr]

Lupus Aurelius, on 09 October 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Someone is not paying attention - yes, there is a FOTM, Dual UAC5s, Dual AC5s, heavy ballistic long range builds. And, despite you sounding like a broken record, the data and math do not support that the ERPPCs, which is the subject of the OP, are in line, but that currently it is unbalanced in favor of ballistics.

The issue is two-fold:
1: Ballistics have 3x over range, which means they lose damage far slower than energy (including PPCs)
(AC10 does less damage than PPC at 540m, but more damage than PPC at about 800m)
2: No tonnage limits so everyone can bring a heavy or assault and throw ballistics (which are normally reigned in by weight) all over their mech.

Solutions are obvious:
1: Reduce ballistic over-range to 2x, to be in line with their high heat cousins.
2: Introduce Weight-Limits so there are actual choices between using light, medium, heavy, or assault based on overall weight, not just how many ballistics it can mount.

------------------
If that doesn't prove to be enough, drop the APT to ensure people need to make room for UA backup weapons.

[Ngamok]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 October 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Faulty Generalization. I use 11 tons of LRM Ammo back under R&R in closed Beta, and I paid for full reloads unlike others who abused the mechanic.

You are the few, lots of people just maximized their C-Bills for the 75% free ammo. There used to be lots of threads back int he day with people admitting to doing it. I did it as well at one point.

Edited by Ngamok, 09 October 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Riddler9884]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

2: Introduce Weight-Limits so there are actual choices between using light, medium, heavy, or assault based on overall weight, not just how many ballistics it can mount.

That I assume is being introduced via UI2.0 and/or community warfare and according to the devs should be out soon (from an article soon means 6 months give or take).

What I was implying with a formula to scale all the weapons would be fine you nerf the damage, heat, etc... buff something else making sure the weapon remains viable in some way.

Edited by Riddler9884, 09 October 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lupus Aurelius, on 09 October 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Someone is not paying attention - yes, there is a FOTM, Dual UAC5s, Dual AC5s, heavy ballistic long range builds. And, despite you sounding like a broken record, the data and math do not support that the ERPPCs, which is the subject of the OP, are in line, but that currently it is unbalanced in favor of ballistics.

Oh I don't even sound like a broken record - i feel this way - because you simple ignore those posts that question your math - with math.
Maybe its because its a problem of language... anyhow:
I ask you to prove your system with more builds - instead of only the fire brand:

you don't have done this.

I ask you to reconsider that the change of 12-13 heat will balance the FireBrand - but make other builds imba again.

And last not least your comparison did completely ignore - range and damage on hit. The AC 2 is so superior? Really? No it is not...its a hot weapon, its a heavy weapon and i have to hit the same 5 times to deal the same damage of an ER-PPC

Here the PPC test
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...54b9f0c0abf18be
20 DHS
4 MLAS
275 STD
384 points of armor

the AC 10 test
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09b75aaf0981108
11DHS
394 points of armor
2 AC 10 with 6tons of ammunition


the last:
is simple:
(btw: the DPS of a UAC 5 with 20% jam chance is 5.6 or 8,4 per double tap)
the 2 UAC 5s instead of the AC 10s but with 4 MLAS and 13DHS

considering DPS - not even heat: we got this picture:



you see that the UAC5 is clearly superior - but in this config will ran out of ammo in 40sec

Next I would reduce the dps with a heat factor...allowing the Mech not to overheat:

that will create a picture similar to this one:

---

However while those picture second your statement they don't consider another fact.
Window of Engagement and point damage over range.
Means: Me drive PPC you drive AC 10 - i stay out of 450m and punch came out of cover - place a shot and go back - and try to avoid to stay longer as 1-2sec in your crosshair.
All your DPS give you no advantage...

Next a even shootout between UAC5 and ERPPC - much more range and rof for the UAC 5 - looks even - but i can place a shot and twist and turn to avoid that you are able to land you second shot in the same spot.


Next fact is that a battle is not linear - player will hardly press trigger as soon as the weapon is ready...that reduce the DPS for the UAC and AC builds but the heat dps for PPC is not effected.





Last not least I don't even have to compare even builds.
For example a 3D with ER-PPCs....will dictate the battlefield - or you combine it with ballistic weapons creating a even more powerful build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...400b2fbc71cb4dc


As said - i don't say your findings are wrong... i think i even have proven your findings in the first part of this post.
In a direct comparison the ER-PPC is much to hot

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 08 October 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Whoever gave you the notion they weren't supposed to be brawling weapons? Is that something you came up with on your own? Because in Battletech they are brawling weapons.

In BT Mechs that were designed to both Brawl and Range had BOTH weapon types on-board and by default used both weapon systems as the Ranges closed. The erPPC could be used in close, for sure, but due to heavy Heat consideration (15 in BT), that same mech would have used its Brawling load-out (less heat impact) when in that range bracket.

The Canon BT Boats everyone speaks/whines about not being available in MWO would use said Boats weapons at the Optimal range those weapons were designed for.

The BT Awesome pilot, with erPPC's and nothing else, was highly unlikely to fire up his ride and think, "let's rush right into Brawling ranges with this puppy". But if found in a bad spot, could fire those weapons in the hope to kill the threat.

Now, our fearless MWO pilots. They are a whole different type story.

Edited by Almond Brown, 09 October 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Gladewolf]

Lupus Aurelius, on 08 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Go back and read the OP. It's an analysis of the heat/damage profiles of long range capable ballistics to the heat/damage profile of the ERPPCs. You, and others, keep focusing on a single weapon system, the AC10, but ignoring the rest. The analysis is of all long range capable ballistics, and granted, the AC10 is on the low end of that capability. But it is long range capable, so is included in the study.

Also, you made a statement that energy weapons should only be compared / balanced to energy weapons, and ballistics to ballistics, which is ludicrous, and logically inconsistant. What the weapons do define their capability. Pinpoint damage, direct fire, able to hit over 1000m, if it falls in all those categories, then how they do it is inconsequential, they all function the same.

You go back and read, because I stated several times that the only weapon that DOESN'T deserve comparison with the ERPPC ...is the AC-10. Now we have people specifically attempting to address the AC-10 as overpowered despite all of it's balance points. The last paragraph is patently false where I am concerned, you are better than that. Again...I don't want to start seeing scorched earth nerf policies.

[CrashieJ]

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

math

look kid, back in CLOSED BETA, ER/PPCs were high heat and long range.

they also had a longer cooldown, almost 1/3 more, to mitigate that massive hotspot

so you can put as many stats on the board as you'd like.

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

Edited by gavilatius, 09 October 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

look kid, back in CLOSED BETA, ER/PPCs were high heat and long range.

they also had a longer cooldown, almost 1/3 more, to mitigate that massive hotspot

so you can put as many stats on the board as you'd like.

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

Boy, I'm probably old enough to be your father...and math, logic, still trump your opinion. Learn to deal with that, boy.

[JohnnyWayne]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

look kid, back in CLOSED BETA, ER/PPCs were high heat and long range.

they also had a longer cooldown, almost 1/3 more, to mitigate that massive hotspot

so you can put as many stats on the board as you'd like.

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

No. They are not. They are general weapons and pretty common among all mechs in BT. Just because you WANT them to be, that doesn't mean they are or they should be.

Currently PPCs are too hot. PPC and ERPPC. It's not like they arn't used anymore but the nerf for regular PPCs was too hard in the sense of too many things at once, and on ERPPCs too high. 13 Heat on ERPPCs and 9 on PPCs.

I want to add, that support weapons are not "support" because they weakon and don't kill. It is quite the opposite - support weapons are rather strong. PPCs are quite weak for a "support" weapon right now, due to the heat system. Make double heat sinks finally double.

Only laserboats, lights and PPC users are affected by the current system. What does that mean? Make PPCs usable, limit laserboats via heatpenaltys and make these penaltys chassi and weightclass dependent.

[Gladewolf]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

look kid, back in CLOSED BETA, ER/PPCs were high heat and long range.

they also had a longer cooldown, almost 1/3 more, to mitigate that massive hotspot

so you can put as many stats on the board as you'd like.

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

At 23 years old you likely don't have enough experience to call anyone kid. Trying to use closed beta is about the worst possible argument anyone could use for anything...that ended last year and concluded very little

[Almond Brown]

Quote

PPCs are quite weak for a "support" weapon right now, due to the heat system.

Utter nonsense. The PPC and erPPC do the same damage as they always have. The fact that you can't carry as many, or just hold down the trigger forever, like before, does not change that fact.

If you desire high DPS with minimal heat profile for "support" purposes, perhaps you might try the AC2 or AC5.

If your Mech of choice does not have Ballistic slots, that is a damned shame really. Buy another that does.

Edited by Almond Brown, 09 October 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

that is the only thing I liked in your post...back in CB - PPC and ERPPCs were indeed the worst of all weapons.... you know what... even back then i was highly opposed to any buff....all i thought was - if the weapon doesn't work - i didn't tried hard enough
had them on Awesome with 30SHS
had them on a fast K2
had them on a Atlas with 29 SHS
Ii got results... killing of Mechs with two strikes - but when they buffed the PPC to a noob weapon - i was completely dissatisfied. It wasn't a honor to use them it was cheese and it didn't feel right.
Maybe its that kind of sentiment - that made me strongly opposed to any buff for the ER-PPC - I still think if people have problems in using them.
I have though a while during my son was bathing.... one of my strongest argument is that a heat buff will make the ppc again viable for a lighter fast mech - for example the cicade....with 10 engine DHS only - and 26 heat give it the opportunity for two strikes with 2 ER-PPCs but even with 30 heat for a single dual strike that mech will be able to use them twice without shutting down.

I still don't think that reducing the heat for energy weapon will be a good way, i would like to see a system that increases the difference of ballistics vs energy weapons much more - we have ghost heat - why not a kind of ghost ammunition, that reduces the supply for ballistic weapons?

[MustrumRidcully]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

look kid, back in CLOSED BETA, ER/PPCs were high heat and long range.

they also had a longer cooldown, almost 1/3 more, to mitigate that massive hotspot

so you can put as many stats on the board as you'd like.

PPCs are SPECIALIST WEAPONS... deal with it.

Do you mean longer or shorter cooldown? WHich part of the Closed Beta are you talking about then?

There was a time where the PPC cooldown was slower, but I don't remember what it was anymore, but at some point, they buffed it to one shot every 3 seconds. and that stayed for the remainder of the Closed Beta and was increased to 4 seconds at some point in the Open Beta, a few weeks or months after they lowered the PPC heat and increased projectile speed and introduced HSR.

[Vodrin Thales]

I'm sorry for those that don't like the heat changes, but PPC's/ERPPC's need to stay exactly as they are now. They are still quite usable in competitive play, but you don't have to slot them whenever possible as you did before the nerf. Reduce the heat and we go back to seeing them on everything again.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 October 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

There was a time where the PPC cooldown was slower, but I don't remember what it was anymore, but at some point, they buffed it to one shot every 3 seconds. and that stayed for the remainder of the Closed Beta and was increased to 4 seconds at some point in the Open Beta, a few weeks or months after they lowered the PPC heat and increased projectile speed and introduced HSR.

the 3sec cool down was a great thing...would be a good buff - if you can take the heat

[Equalizer]

Vodrin Thales, on 09 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I'm sorry for those that don't like the heat changes, but PPC's/ERPPC's need to stay exactly as they are now. They are still quite usable in competitive play, but you don't have to slot them whenever possible as you did before the nerf. Reduce the heat and we go back to seeing them on everything again.

Of course they are - the so-called "competitive play" is nothing more than focus firing on from the exact same positions on each map from what I've seen so far. In this sense, even 25 heat ERPPCs would work just fine, since you only need to fire them once every 30 sec or so. I don't think "competitive play" should be used as a benchmark - it's rather dull and monotous after all, favouring high alpha assaults and heavies, and probably less than 1% of all games are 12 vs. 12 groups. In PUGs (i.e. the remaining 99% of the games) though, the ERPPCs do not work with the current heat system, hence everybody uses the more versatile autocannons instead.