532 replies to this topic

[El Space Doctor]

Ehh.. Now I love ppc's. Back from MW2 days when the projectile velocity was less than cruising speed of a light mech. But it was still nice as atleast it wasn't some lame *** laser...

Anyhow, I think this makes no sense.. The ppc's were buffed in the first place because they were a sub standard weapon. That massive buff in projectile velocity and lesser heat resulted in the ppc meta. And then ghost heat was introduced alongside with a nerf. And before anyone had time to react, the second nerf came bringing them pretty much back to original values alongside side with the minimum range nerf for standard ppc. So all in all, they turned an under used weapon worse, even if it was the king of the hill for three seconds. I just don't see the point really, as if you want to snipe with an energy weapon, these days an ERLL will work much better as you literally cant miss, even if you don't deliver the entire damage potential to one single panel.

I don't want to go back into PPC's being the only viable weapon, but at the same time, I can't remember the last time I was killed by one. It's always either a laser or an AC. Now I'm actually fine with where the bloody pewpews and the marvelous dakkas stand, but I feel the second ppc nerf was silly knee jerk reaction that should be taken back, especially since pairing gauss with a pair of ppc's is a bit more tricky these days. Just to see where it goes.

edit. and while we're at it, lrm's are underpowered. I hate lrms, never use them, but I want to be absolutely shot to hell if I'm dumb enough to wonder into their kill zone.

Edited by El Space Doctor, 26 October 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 26 October 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Openly declaring that ERPPCs should be suboptimal, in any situation no less, is already an indication that balance is not what its opponents desire, but rather the elimination of the ERPPC as a viable weapon.

Did everyone forget about the abysmal state of the Awesome?

Don't mistake 'not the best weapon in the game' for suboptimal. Running two on my 3D right now and it's doing file, just because of this post.

Two ERPPCs are not, and should not, but an optimal primary weapon. Two ERLLs should in fact also be a bit too hot to be an optimal primary weapon.

Two PPCs are often and effectively a primary weapon setup. Two LLs, same thing.

Two ERPPCs with support weapons while they cool off? Perfectly reasonable and works well.

Right now I'm playing with my 3D with 2ERPPCs, a UAC5 and 2MLs. What I DON'T do is alpha with them. I stay 700-900m out and pop shots at people, intentionally staying in the open. Regular PPCs, LLs, AC10s, even dual AC5s are hitting me for 1-3 points while my dual ERPPCs are hitting them back for 20. When they finally get down to the brawl I use the UAC5 and 2MLs and finish what the ERPPCs started. I save enough heat for an emergency dual-ERPPC hit. Finding it especially useful against lights - by the time the fighting has moved from long range to point blank they've all be about 20 points or less away from death and those ERPPCs hit just fine there. I suspect that most people don't take the time in a brawl to check the paperdoll to see if my PPCs are ER or not and so they get right up in my grill and get 35 points (2ERPPCs, 2ML, 1UAC5) in a spot I already peeled while they moved from 800 to 300 meters.

So, I guess, thank you guys? I'm a terrible poptart but with ERPPCs I don't need to be a good one. I can and do stand in the clear trading 20 points for 2 points with people at extreme range and just keep backing up until I'm out of room or the matches is about over. It's a rock solid pugging design. Not quite 2xAC20 for pugging but still solid and not dependent on teammates.

So, yeah. ERPPCs are fine. If they were any better they'd be utterly dominant. Again.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Two ERPPCs are not, and should not, but an optimal primary weapon. Two ERLLs should in fact also be a bit too hot to be an optimal primary weapon.

Two PPCs are often and effectively a primary weapon setup. Two LLs, same thing.

Two ERPPCs with support weapons while they cool off? Perfectly reasonable and works well.

So you don't think this mech should exist?
"CPLT-K3 Though this design never reached full production, it was prototyped during the War of 3039. It upgraded the PPCs of the K2 to ER PPCs. Twenty double heat sinks kept heat to a minimum."

[General Taskeen]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

So you don't think this mech should exist?
"CPLT-K3 Though this design never reached full production, it was prototyped during the War of 3039. It upgraded the PPCs of the K2 to ER PPCs. Twenty double heat sinks kept heat to a minimum."

Mischief left out quite a bit actually. The 9M stock isn't that bad with 3 ER PPC's, but it is in MWO. There is also the Clan Puma with 2 ER PPC's. There is also the Clan Warhawk with 4 ER PPC's, which does run hot when firing everything in TT, like its supposed to - 2, then 2 however, runs just fine. There is also a Panther with 15 SHS and 1 ER PPC. 15 SHS could handle an ER PPC in TT, in MWO SHS does jack squat.

Bottom line, ER PPC's were primary configs from 2 to 4 - meaning they are optimal primary weapons, just not in MWO. And tough to do in MWO due the inherent flaws of the heatsink design.

Edited by General Taskeen, 26 October 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

So you don't think this mech should exist?
"CPLT-K3 Though this design never reached full production, it was prototyped during the War of 3039. It upgraded the PPCs of the K2 to ER PPCs. Twenty double heat sinks kept heat to a minimum."

So now you're trying to bring it around to why MW:O doesn't match TT for heat metrics and performance? It would if the rate of fire wasn't quadrupled. Want to match tt metrics? Fire both of them every 10 seconds or so. 20 DHS would work fine.

Which is a disingenuous argument since we already know that the heat mechanic of MWO is completely different.

Which still brings us back to this:

ERPPCs have the heat they do because otherwise they'd be an AC20 with a range of 810 to 1620m and unlimited ammo. Which they were, for months, which is why heat got put back. They are absolutely viable with higher heat they're just not the ultimate go-to weapon they were when their heat was lower.

ERPPCs work fine. I'm rocking them on my 3D right now. A bit more tactical but it's working better than 2 PPCs and an AC10. The UAC5 is nice for burst damage if not as reliable as I'd like but that crazy stupid long range, when used effectively, is worth the tradeoff.

You're trying to create false dichotomies. The implication that if the ERPPC isn't the absolute best weapon (which it is with lower heat) then no energy weapons are viable and the ERPPC itself just doesn't work. It doesn't work as a brawling weapon as well as ballistics do but it's the premier, hands down top shelf sniper weapon. I know; I'm rocking 400-600 damage, a couple of kills and an easy 9 assists on average over the last dozen matches. You have to play a bit smarter but that extra range? Around 700m nobody else can really hurt you back and you're still punching for the full 20. I just finished a game where a guy in a tbolt stood at ~800m on Canyon, both of us stock still, trading his two regular PPCs and a LL against my two ERPPCs. I blew his right torso out on volley 4 and he died. My armor was yellow; the laser was barely 1 point per shot and his PPCs were about 2 each. He was effectively shooting me with a ML, I was punching him with an AC20.

ERPPCs still kick ferro-fiberous rump. They're not the ultimate weapon anymore but I'm more convinced than ever that they're about perfect at 15 heat/shot.

[MischiefSC]

General Taskeen, on 26 October 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Mischief left out quite a bit actually. The 9M stock isn't that bad with 3 ER PPC's, but it is in MWO. There is also the Clan Puma with 2 ER PPC's. There is also the Clan Warhawk with 4 ER PPC's, which does run hot when firing everything in TT, like its supposed to - 2, then 2 however, runs just fine. There is also a Panther with 15 SHS and 1 ER PPC. 15 SHS could handle an ER PPC in TT, in MWO SHS does jack squat.

Bottom line, ER PPC's were primary configs from 2 to 4 - meaning they are optimal primary weapons, just not in MWO. And tough to do in MWO due the inherent flaws of the heatsink design.

Pinpoint accuracy, PGIs goofy heat system. I wish tabletop balancing worked in MW:O - I really do. It doesn't though. In TT plenty of mechs had PPCs as a primary. Warhammers, Griffen, Battlemaster, Marauder, lots and lots do. That doesn't work in MW:O though because of pinpoint accuracy.

Again, as we saw when ERPPCs and PPCs had a lower heat. There was no point to using anything else - half-weight AC10s with unlimited ammo and twice the range and projectile speed. You were an ***** not to pack them onto your mech in favor of any and everything else.

[Roland]

I still use PPC's on a regular basis.

The Awesome's problem is not PPC's. It's that its geometry is terrible, and it's basically just worse at everything than other mechs.

[Urdnot Mau]

NIce post. Very objective. You've brought numbers to your side, and that was a good way to try to make a point.

The thing is... behind these number is experience. When (ER)PPCs where cooller every build had them, and not just 1 of them.
I agree that the numbers of damage in relation to the recycle time are not impressive nor attractive, but i know for a fact that if we had (ER)PPCs with lower heat taxes, PPC warrior would be happening all over again. During a few hours of the day it still happens.

Basically... I like the place where ERPPCs is right now

[Wolfways]

I'd be happy with the 15 heat if the heat system actually worked, but because PGI decided the game they apparently loved for so many years was rubbish and created their own nerf-the-hell-out-of-energy-weapons-system ERPPC's just can't be used as effectively anymore.
With most mechs you can keep the stock weapons configuration by adding more heat sinks to cope with the extra heat, but with mechs that use ERPPC's as their main weapon (like the K3) you can't.

What they should have done is decrease the damage and heat generation by the same percentage they increased the rate of fire of all weapons.

Edited by Wolfways, 26 October 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Roland]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I'd be happy with the 15 heat if the heat system actually worked, but because PGI decided the game they apparently loved for so many years was rubbish and created their own nerf-the-hell-out-of-energy-weapons-system ERPPC's just can't be used as effectively anymore.
With most mechs you can keep the stock weapons configuration by adding more heat sinks to cope with the extra heat, but with mechs that use ERPPC's as their main weapon (like the K3) you can't.

What they should have done is decrease the damage and heat generation by the same percentage they increased the rate of fire of all weapons.

You can just choose not to fire your weapons as soon as they recycle.

This is the thing lots of folks don't seem to get... you don't want to be heat neutral. You want to run hot, and then SOMETIMES choose to push your heat up for an increase in firepower, and SOMETIMES reduce your firepower to cool down.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 26 October 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

You can just choose not to fire your weapons as soon as they recycle.

This is the thing lots of folks don't seem to get... you don't want to be heat neutral. You want to run hot, and then SOMETIMES choose to push your heat up for an increase in firepower, and SOMETIMES reduce your firepower to cool down.

Yeah i know that. The point is, even if you stay hot for the entire match with ERPPC's your damage will be very low compared to other weapons, because you cannot fire for quite a lot of the battle.
My JM6-S overheats in around 15 seconds, but at least i know i can kill anything in under 10 seconds.

[Lupus Aurelius]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Pinpoint accuracy, PGIs goofy heat system. I wish tabletop balancing worked in MW:O - I really do. It doesn't though. In TT plenty of mechs had PPCs as a primary. Warhammers, Griffen, Battlemaster, Marauder, lots and lots do. That doesn't work in MW:O though because of pinpoint accuracy.

Again, as we saw when ERPPCs and PPCs had a lower heat. There was no point to using anything else - half-weight AC10s with unlimited ammo and twice the range and projectile speed. You were an ***** not to pack them onto your mech in favor of any and everything else.

And now there is no point of using anything but ballistics in the current meta, especially for sustainability of fire when opponents close to close combat. Hardly any better, and the current heat levels makes all non-ballistic mechs suboptimal.

I love how people keep bringing up "pinpoint damage". Currently, all ballistics are pinpoint, especially with convergence. But 20 damage pinpoint! Nonsense. If you hit with both dual ERPPCs, it's once every 4 seconds. In that 4 seconds, the dual AC5 mech had done 10 pinpoint in 1.5 seconds, and 20 in 3 seconds, for negligible heat. The dual UAC5 mech , if no jam, 20 damage pinpoint in 1.5 seconds, with negligible heat.

They can keep firing as long as they like, no shutdown, whereas a dual ERPPC mech is doing 30 heat each volley. You can't sustain that, and I am not advocating you should be able to indefinitely. but 3 volleys and shutdown, no, too hot. So you chain fire to alleviate it somewhat, 10 damge every 2 seconds, but again, due to heat, you'll get 4-5 shots out, then shut down.

And you are forgetting that with ghost heat and ERPPCs at 12, you never saw moire than 2. the last round of changes were specifically to decouple the Gauss/PPC/ERPPC combo.

Again, it boils down to non-ballistic mechs having viable options that can compete against ballistic mechs. With lack of focused damage from lasers, and say what you will, damage from lasers are not pinpoint due to beam duration, the only option are PPCs and ERPPCs. I've already giving the figures for 12 heat, and you get an extra volley out of it at 12 heat. And, that is with the dual ERPPC mech having 20 DHS, with the ballistic mechs having only the native 10 from the engine.

This nonsense of the ERPPC boogeyman, which never existed with heat at 12, is just that, scare tactics. People remember the 4-6 PPC stalkers and the 3 PPC Gauss Highlanders and panic thinking, no, no, nerf ERPPCs into the ground. But there was no ghost heat then, they were down also to 11 heat then. Raised to 12 when ghost heat was implemented.

At that point, they were fine. But the synergy between Gauss and ERPPC/PPC still existed. More tears, and a massive change to both weapons, which as far as heat on the ERPPC, was excessive.

Ballistics currently being used in dual to quad setups, other than the AC2, have no speed bumps to operation, and can shred you faster than PPC mechs ever could. So either the heat has to go down on ERPPCs, or heat has to go up on ballistics, or some firing delay has to be introduced, or convergence has to cease. Or just ghost heat running more than 1 ballistic at a time.

The pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme, as many of us predicted. It's not balanced currently, no one can argue that case when the majority of builds you see are ballistic focused, and energy builds are not able to sustain fire, nor deliver damage as quickly as ballistics. ( LL are actually 4 sec, 1 sec beam duration, 3 sec cooldown).

And,if there is were any doubt, Mustrum's post gives weight to the lack of effectiveness with the ERPPCs:
http://mwomercs.com/...rts-2013-11-10/

P.S. - As stated previously, the real issues are convergence, nigh unto omni mech fitting capability, and the heat system in general.

The should only be weak weapon convergence for weapons in the same component, since 2 or more weapons will be mounted parallel to each other, so their paths should never meet.

Fitting should have crit restrictions. 2 Ballistics in the right arm, but only 2 ballistic crits. Guess what, 2 AC2s or 2 Machine guns are all you get.

Heat should have stayed 30 max, heat sinks only dissipate heat, and DHS dissipate at 2x SHS. Weapon heat should have been ratioed from TT, as well as damage. TT-10 second turn, 15 heat, : MWO - 4 sec cooldown, 6 heat. If the same were done to damage, then the original armor amounts would have sufficed, instead of having to have doubled them.

P.S.S. - Some people have posted repeatedly that they have said their piece on this topic, yet they keep commenting. As you have said, you already made your case, no need to continue, is there.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 27 October 2013 - 06:19 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

I run a single ER PPC as ballistic replacement on my mediums and lights. It's pretty okay for what it is, but nothing spectacular.

[krolmir]

I have a challenge to all those who say ERPPC is fine, buy an AWS-9M and try running the factory loadout through terra therma a few times. Then modify it how you like while keepings at least 2 ERPPCs, and run it through TT a few more times, then come back to this post and comment. All the Devs did was knee jerk Nerf PPCs because of qq this kills me posters. Now those same gosh darn people are posting about AC/5, UAC/5, AC/20, and AC/2 qq the boaters killed me. You want to know why so many weapons are broken, half arsed HSR and hit reg. SRMs have been broke for almost a year, and yet no one complains about the splat cat because of it. This punishes lights and mediums the most, it took their big punch weapon away, the mechs who's job it was to harass snipers. Then to top it off they toss in a ridiculous seismic module, and the perfect storm erupts, the sniper meta. In fact the seismic module was the largest explosive device that got tossed on the pyre, and the most responsible for the indomitable long range meta that has continued unabated to this day. Now instead of gauss PPC, its Ballistics and ERLL/LL. THE TOOLSET HAS CHANGED BUT THE GAME IS THE SAME IT'S ALWAYS BEEN.

[MischiefSC]

Lupus Aurelius, on 27 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

And now there is no point of using anything but ballistics in the current meta, especially for sustainability of fire when opponents close to close combat. Hardly any better, and the current heat levels makes all non-ballistic mechs suboptimal.

I love how people keep bringing up "pinpoint damage". Currently, all ballistics are pinpoint, especially with convergence. But 20 damage pinpoint! Nonsense. If you hit with both dual ERPPCs, it's once every 4 seconds. In that 4 seconds, the dual AC5 mech had done 10 pinpoint in 1.5 seconds, and 20 in 3 seconds, for negligible heat. The dual UAC5 mech , if no jam, 20 damage pinpoint in 1.5 seconds, with negligible heat.

They can keep firing as long as they like, no shutdown, whereas a dual ERPPC mech is doing 30 heat each volley. You can't sustain that, and I am not advocating you should be able to indefinitely. but 3 volleys and shutdown, no, too hot. So you chain fire to alleviate it somewhat, 10 damge every 2 seconds, but again, due to heat, you'll get 4-5 shots out, then shut down.

And you are forgetting that with ghost heat and ERPPCs at 12, you never saw moire than 2. the last round of changes were specifically to decouple the Gauss/PPC/ERPPC combo.

Again, it boils down to non-ballistic mechs having viable options that can compete against ballistic mechs. With lack of focused damage from lasers, and say what you will, damage from lasers are not pinpoint due to beam duration, the only option are PPCs and ERPPCs. I've already giving the figures for 12 heat, and you get an extra volley out of it at 12 heat. And, that is with the dual ERPPC mech having 20 DHS, with the ballistic mechs having only the native 10 from the engine.

This nonsense of the ERPPC boogeyman, which never existed with heat at 12, is just that, scare tactics. People remember the 4-6 PPC stalkers and the 3 PPC Gauss Highlanders and panic thinking, no, no, nerf ERPPCs into the ground. But there was no ghost heat then, they were down also to 11 heat then. Raised to 12 when ghost heat was implemented.

At that point, they were fine. But the synergy between Gauss and ERPPC/PPC still existed. More tears, and a massive change to both weapons, which as far as heat on the ERPPC, was excessive.

Ballistics currently being used in dual to quad setups, other than the AC2, have no speed bumps to operation, and can shred you faster than PPC mechs ever could. So either the heat has to go down on ERPPCs, or heat has to go up on ballistics, or some firing delay has to be introduced, or convergence has to cease. Or just ghost heat running more than 1 ballistic at a time.

The pendulum has swung to the opposite extreme, as many of us predicted. It's not balanced currently, no one can argue that case when the majority of builds you see are ballistic focused, and energy builds are not able to sustain fire, nor deliver damage as quickly as ballistics. ( LL are actually 4 sec, 1 sec beam duration, 3 sec cooldown).

And,if there is were any doubt, Mustrum's post gives weight to the lack of effectiveness with the ERPPCs:
http://mwomercs.com/...rts-2013-11-10/

P.S. - As stated previously, the real issues are convergence, nigh unto omni mech fitting capability, and the heat system in general.

The should only be weak weapon convergence for weapons in the same component, since 2 or more weapons will be mounted parallel to each other, so their paths should never meet.

Fitting should have crit restrictions. 2 Ballistics in the right arm, but only 2 ballistic crits. Guess what, 2 AC2s or 2 Machine guns are all you get.

Heat should have stayed 30 max, heat sinks only dissipate heat, and DHS dissipate at 2x SHS. Weapon heat should have been ratioed from TT, as well as damage. TT-10 second turn, 15 heat, : MWO - 4 sec cooldown, 6 heat. If the same were done to damage, then the original armor amounts would have sufficed, instead of having to have doubled them.

P.S.S. - Some people have posted repeatedly that they have said their piece on this topic, yet they keep commenting. As you have said, you already made your case, no need to continue, is there.

What you're missing though is range and lack of ammo. Energy builds are perfectly viable every bit as much as pure ballistic builds are viable - which is to say, largely sub-optimal. Mixed ballistic/energy/missile builds are absolutely trump.

That's what you keep skipping. Almost nobody runs a build with nothing but ballistics. Normally they've got supplemental energy weapons. Most of them run 1/2 their firepower as energy. Right now on my 3D I'm running an energy build (2xERPPC, 2xML) with a supplemental ballistic (1xUAC5) and it's working great. Highlanders work about the same - most of their killing is done with the PPCs, the AC is a backup for when the PPCs cool.

You also keep coming back to DPS. Unless the target is just standing there getting shot in the same spot all those repeated hits are largely getting spread out. Those dual ERPPCs are concentrating their damage to a single location every time you shoot. This allows you to shoot, get into cover. Shoot, get into cover. The same damage with 4xAC5s requires me to stand in the open getting shot and LRMed the whole time. This mitigates that 4 second cooldown everywhere except brawling.

You also keep ignoring that ERPPCs have 2x the range or more of all ballistics save the AC2, which requires you to stand in the open getting shot to use effectively. having an extra 400m of effective full damage range over AC5s or 10s is stupidly beneficial. I should know, I'm exploiting the {Scrap} out of it right now.

Ballistics are fine. Heavy, space-hungry, ammo (which is explosive) dependent, relatively slow projectile with projectile drop at range. PPCs are a solid key-hole energy weapon - they've got this sweet-spot between 100 and ~400m where they just own and they work great side by side with ballistics. LLs and ERLLs are great overall mid-range weapons, a bit hot but not bad, good damage but not great, DOT but instantly accurate, no ammo requirements so fire all you want. Then ERPPCs which have flat out cross-eyed CRAZY range, good speed and accuracy, unlimited ammo, etc. They're just too hot to use exclusively because if it comes to a brawl you'll be in trouble.

It keeps coming back to the same thing. You want 2xERPPCs to be as viable as ballistics - just with 810m to 1620m range, no ammo and less weight. No. We did that. It's stupidly unbalanced.

You want a PPC that's cooler, has a range of 410-820m and explodes like weapon ammo does when hit? Sure, that'd be balanced with ballistics IMO.

That's not what you're asking for. You want a return to ERPPCs being the unquestionable premier weapon in the game, flat out superior to everything else. Which they were for lower heat.

We've already done what you're asking. We've already done it. This isn't a 'we should try it' idea, it's a 'we should try it AGAIN' idea. We did it for *months*. We already know exactly what happens when ERPPCs have a lower heat, we've done it and experienced it and it was terrible.

You want to run a pure energy build with no missiles or ballistics? It's going to be hot. Same way running a pure ballistics build leaves you packed full of explosives for the first half of the match and utterly helpless and unarmed for the last half. Mixed builds tend to be superior. That's a good thing and as it should be.

[JohnnyWayne]

I didn't read all of it but all "arguments" you brought up are false. The initial post considered ammo, there are LOTS OF players that run balistic only loadouts and hell, ac5s have not half the max effective range of an ER PPC. Considering the damage dropoff, ACs are in advantage regarding range.

We did nothing. What many did was boating PPCs. Ghost heat got rid of that. Then PPC and Gauss was the fotm. Instead of getting rid of it they got rid of PPCs Gauss and ER PPCs in special. This nerf was unjustified, thats it.

Ammo explosions? Please, if you have open armor then you are probably dead soon anyways. Either that or you lose half of your damage.

What he wants is that ER PPCs are a viable choice again as main weapons. I want the same but also for PPCs (people claim that they are but LL are a better choice by far...)

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 October 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[JimboFBX]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 October 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

there are LOTS OF players that run balistic only loadouts

yeah, they're called noobs

19 pages of the same arguments, countless hours of time wasted typing it up

everyone do yourself a favor and stop replying to this thread

[MischiefSC]

JimboFBX, on 27 October 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

yeah, they're called noobs

19 pages of the same arguments, countless hours of time wasted typing it up

everyone do yourself a favor and stop replying to this thread

You're right. I was going to respond to JohnnyWayne but if the last dozen times clarifying the same points and the several months of horrible ERPPC meta didn't get across the same point that every other player in the game got one more post of the exact same 'AC20 with 810-1620m range and no ammo is not balanced' argument isn't going to change anything.

Fortunately PGI seems to have gotten the point already though and I have no expectation of the games meta getting destroyed - AGAIN - by low heat ERPPCs. I'll let this one go.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

You're right. I was going to respond to JohnnyWayne but if the last dozen times clarifying the same points and the several months of horrible ERPPC meta didn't get across the same point that every other player in the game got one more post of the exact same 'AC20 with 810-1620m range and no ammo is not balanced' argument isn't going to change anything.

Fortunately PGI seems to have gotten the point already though and I have no expectation of the games meta getting destroyed - AGAIN - by low heat ERPPCs. I'll let this one go.

6+ months of the PPC meta didn't make it obvious? I guess blinders are great at any time of the year for those defending the PPC meta.

I would like a small ERPPC heat decrease (something close to 13.5 heat), but let's be honest.... the height of the PPC meta had plenty of 11 heat ERPPCs and 8 heat PPCs pushing the heat envelop to new undesirable levels.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 October 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

What you're missing though is range and lack of ammo. You want to run a pure energy build with no missiles or ballistics? It's going to be hot. Same way running a pure ballistics build leaves you packed full of explosives for the first half of the match and utterly helpless and unarmed for the last half. Mixed builds tend to be superior. That's a good thing and as it should be.

That's completely wrong.
If you run a pure energy build it's not just hot, it's too hot to use most of the time.
I have a pure ballistic mech, my JM6-S (it has 2xML's but i only use them on the very rare occasion i run out of ammo which is when the match is almost over anyway). I have 10tons of ammo (10tons/10 crit slots) which only has a 10% chance of exploding when hit and only happens when the section it is in is just about gone anyway. If my mech is that badly damaged i'm nearly destroyed anyway. As PGI removed the through armour crits from TT you need to lose the armour first, and if you lose armour in the first half of the match then you're either doing something wrong or you're just having a very bad match.
As 10tons of ammo usually lasts me the entire match i'm not helpless and unarmed for the last half.
If you, the player, choose not to fit enough ammo to last an entire match then running out of ammo is solely your fault. I used to have another 2tons of ammo in place of the ML's and never ran out of ammo, but i chose to take the 2xML's instead because running out with 10tons is so rare.
Getting a few kills and around 800+ damage/match with this mech is normal.

On the other hand my K3 has 20DHS (10tons/30crit slots) but can fire a lot less, and because of the weight and crit usage of the weapons+DHS i can't fit any other weapons decent enough to use for close range fights (i have the stock 2xML's, 2xMG's).
A good match with this mech would be maybe 1-2 kills and around 500 damage. Getting anything near the same as is common for the JM6 would be an amazing match (and probably a very bad/new enemy team).

Mixed builds should be good, but ballistic-only builds shouldn't be completely viable while energy-only aren't.