532 replies to this topic

[CravenMadness]

Sorry, but frankly still not anywhere near believing that ppcs are as useless and underused / under powered / over nerfed as people keep bitching about them being.

Until I stop seeing people getting nearly a thousand damage, five and six kills with four or five assists and still having nearly 75% of their mechs standing while -only- having two ppcs and two acs crammed into 90 ton mechs, I won't have any sympathy for people who use dual ppcs + anything and cry about the heat generated.

The big connector I keep seeing in the arguments is 'Well when I have two of them this happens' ... Well guess what water-head? ... Don't Take Two of them! FFS. We may not have hard-point restrictions but that doesn't mean that anything you want to stuff into your turkey-mech should actually be viably effective.

Can't do quad ppcs without over-heating? Tough Ti-tay. Hell I -still- see this **** happening, because you know why? The assaults that -can- mount them, still get the benefit of launching that 40 point alpha at least once without overheating even with ghost heat. After that it's a matter of firing dual at two or three second intervals or just wait until you've cooled off and moved to another position to find another poor sucker trying to peek into field of view and blast them out of the aether from eight hundred meters out.

Edited by CravenMadness, 29 November 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

CravenMadness, on 29 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Sorry, but frankly still not anywhere near believing that ppcs are as useless and underused / under powered / over nerfed as people keep bitching about them being.

Until I stop seeing people getting nearly a thousand damage, five and six kills with four or five assists and still having nearly 75% of their mechs standing while -only- having two ppcs and two acs crammed into 90 ton mechs, I won't have any sympathy for people who use dual ppcs + anything and cry about the heat generated.

The big connector I keep seeing in the arguments is 'Well when I have two of them this happens' ... Well guess what water-head? ... Don't Take Two of them! FFS. We may not have hard-point restrictions but that doesn't mean that anything you want to stuff into your turkey-mech should actually be viably effective.

Can't do quad ppcs without over-heating? Tough Ti-tay. Hell I -still- see this **** happening, because you know why? The assaults that -can- mount them, still get the benefit of launching that 40 point alpha at least once without overheating even with ghost heat. After that it's a matter of firing dual at two or three second intervals or just wait until you've cooled off and moved to another position to find another poor sucker trying to peek into field of view and blast them out of the aether from eight hundred meters out.

The OP concerns ERPPCs not PPCs.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 29 November 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Great point.

Totaly agree with the "omny mech" line.

Lupus Aurelius, on 06 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

This is the problem with PGI balancing by heat. Approaching the historical issues by addressing the root causes, such as convergence, the heat system in general, and the fitting mechanics would have addressed those issues in a more accurate way. Specifically, fitting, due to current mechanics making all mechs effectively omni mechs. Limiting criticals in a location for the weapon types allowed there would have prevented most of the major boating issues.

[CravenMadness]

Lupus Aurelius, on 29 November 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The OP concerns ERPPCs not PPCs.

The biggest thing about the heat that effects er-ppcs and how they're used, is that because you -can- use them as up close weaponry (no min range) people try and -use- them as close range weaponry and end up overheating themselves because of it, instead of using four medium lasers in the place of -one- of those er-ppcs, with two-thirds the heat generation per 'alpha' of medium lasers.

If you continue to use the er-ppcs as long range weaponry, then you -do- have time to cool down between -dual- er-ppc shots if you aren't just spamming them every-which way but straight. And you get better effective range, and an -emergency- close range weapon.

[Bront]

Solis Obscuri, on 20 November 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I love every time I see a new thread using a collection of charts and mathematical models spun from whole cloth in order to justify removing waste heat generation from a powerful weapon systems whose only drawback is high waste heat generation.

If heat dissipation worked better, then I might agree, but it's a multi-pronged problem.

1) DHS don't shed heat as fast as they should.
2) PPC/ERPPCs generate a huge amount of heat in addition to being the largest and heaviest energy weapons
3) On the other hand, Balistics have a higher ROF, significantly better HPS profile and DPS profile, meaning they not only are better in a vaccuum, they're significantly more heatsink friendly (point 1) which more than makes up for the ammo they need (which was buffed)

If they were to fix 1 and/or 3, then 2 might be less of an issue. 1 and 3 impact all energy weapons, not just PPCs.

[Almond Brown]

Blurry, on 20 November 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

I agree they run way too hot. I picked one up recently and went to the testing grounds and immediately switched it to a regular ppc. Way to high a price to pay for the little bang that you get. Better off getting an AC. But if you don't have a load-out for ballistics like some thunderbolts I would just go with regular ppc. When 1 shot is 30% of your heat with extra heat sinks ya it hurts way too much to run.

Agreed, the (er)PPC is very hot but given the ranges many would use the erPPC at, or would change them out in favor of the regular PPC, the (er)LL is a far better choice while staying in the Energy category.

Long range targets to be hit with a PPC are most likely going to be relatively stationary, at least during the initial attack phase. Can't hit what is hiding with anything. So when comparing the PPC and other Energy weapons, the (er)LL has better range than the PPC (+135m), no min., less Heat, a faster cool down and only sacrifices 1 point of damage.

P.S. A third (er)LL only adds an additional 5 GH.

[Almond Brown]

Bront, on 29 November 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

If heat dissipation worked better, then I might agree, but it's a multi-pronged problem.

1) DHS don't shed heat as fast as they should.
2) PPC/ERPPCs generate a huge amount of heat in addition to being the largest and heaviest energy weapons
3) On the other hand, Ballistics have a higher ROF, significantly better HPS profile and DPS profile, meaning they not only are better in a vacuum, they're significantly more heatsink friendly (point 1) which more than makes up for the ammo they need (which was buffed)

If they were to fix 1 and/or 3, then 2 might be less of an issue. 1 and 3 impact all energy weapons, not just PPCs.

Heat dissipation does nothing to solve the current Ballistic Meta issue. A better energy weapon just means more the of those ballistic builds could add "extra" damage to their profile. The same is true now. Want a cooler over all build, and have a Ballistic slot, fill it.

The Mechs without the option to add a Ballistic are currently suffering from GH, but without GH, we have seen the Meta. Now all that needs to happen in increase the Heat (or add the others to the GH team) or increase the Cool down of the Ballistic series to reduce the pin point (other whole topic btw) DPS issue.

Here is a AWS-9M that would be a good sniper. Added the Bells and Whistle bits to make it a complete Team player package. To bad about the lack of ECM though.

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 November 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Khobai]

ERPPCs do run too hot.

However you have to understand that the heat is the ONLY thing keeping them balanced right now.

Pinpoint alpha is the single most unbalanced and broken game mechanic in MWO. So the only way you can lower the heat on the ERPPC would be to make it do splash damage, so it spreads its damage out over several hit locations. Which in my opinion is preferable to it being unbearably hot.

[Bobdolemite]

Khobai, on 29 November 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

ERPPCs do run too hot.

However you have to understand that the heat is the ONLY thing keeping them balanced right now.

Pinpoint alpha is the single most unbalanced and broken game mechanic in MWO. So the only way you can lower the heat on the ERPPC would be to make it do splash damage, so it spreads its damage out over several hit locations. Which in my opinion is preferable to it being unbearably hot.

If I could shoot non-mech melting ER-PPC with splash damage I would be sooooo happy.....

On a serious note this would address both the unreasonable heat of PPC/ERPPC as well as the weapons most griped about aspect (10 instant pinpoint damage at range)

two birds one stone both sides happy? Nah it will never happen........

[verybad]

Bront, on 29 November 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

If heat dissipation worked better, then I might agree, but it's a multi-pronged problem.

1) DHS don't shed heat as fast as they should.

Sure they do, better in fact, I've not slowed down from heat yet. They just don't shed heat twice as fast as single heat sinks in this game. I still think they're over performing, people are just being *******.

Quote

2) PPC/ERPPCs generate a huge amount of heat in addition to being the largest and heaviest energy weapons

The way they're "supposed to"

Quote

3) On the other hand, Balistics have a higher ROF, significantly better HPS profile and DPS profile, meaning they not only are better in a vaccuum, they're significantly more heatsink friendly (point 1) which more than makes up for the ammo they need (which was buffed)

We all saw what happened when you have an overpowered PPC. The current settings are the fix for that. ERPPCs still aren't all that hot so long as they're used as a support weapon, if people are too stupid to figure out how to use multiple weapons, then let them die.

They're only too hot if you want to boat more than 2 and fire alphas. Sorry.

[Bront]

verybad, on 29 November 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Sure they do, better in fact, I've not slowed down from heat yet. They just don't shed heat twice as fast as single heat sinks in this game. I still think they're over performing, people are just being *******.

Take a mech with 10 SHS to Terra Therma, fire a weapon, and then watch your heat drop. Now tell me they're working fine. (To save you some time, heat dissipates about 1% every second, meaning you can fire an ML about once every 20 seconds to remain heat neutral)

You can shut down a mech on TT if the mech was mounted with just a small laser. That's not working as intended.

Edited by Bront, 29 November 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[verybad]

Bront, on 29 November 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Take a mech with 10 SHS to Terra Therma, fire a weapon, and then watch your heat drop. Now tell me they're working fine. (To save you some time, heat dissipates about 1% every second, meaning you can fire an ML about once every 20 seconds to remain heat neutral)

You can shut down a mech on TT if the mech was mounted with just a small laser. That's not working as intended.

ONO, i've already done that (take single heatsink mechs to Terra Hotta). In fact, most of my 20 something mechs have single heatsinks, because I'm too lazy to work hard and put double heatsinks in them.

I'm not gonna be in trouble will I?

What you seem to be telling me is that if you go to a hot place, you stay hotter than if you don't go there.

...Deeeep!

[Bront]

verybad, on 29 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

...In fact, most of my 20 something mechs have single heatsinks, because I'm too lazy to work hard and put double heatsinks in them....

Forgive me if I have trouble believing that. Unless you run nothing but lights or balistics only.

Anyway, the point on the heat system is that as it'd designed, the heat system significantly favors low heat weapons because it simply doesn't dissipate heat very quickly (and is divergent from TT in that regard for DHS, though I'm not a slave to TT since that's an abstraction). This effects all energy weapons hard since they generate more heat per second, and since DHS take up so much more space, it's harder to pack tons of them on compared to ammo (and SHS simply become too heavy too quickly, and can't catch up to very well to the tonnage and space you free up from DHS in the engine, since space wise, your break even point is 25 SHS vs 15 DHS in a 250 engine, and that weighs an extra 15 tons and still is 2 SHS shy of the same cooling). So, even a lowly medium laser can cause serious heat issues for many mechs.

So, since cooling is high capacity/low dispation, high HPS weapons suffer even more of a penalty than they might otherwise, making the ERPPC a particularly bad case.

Would increasing the cooling of HS/DHS help? Yes, as it would actually allow you to clear out some of that extra heat high energy weapons are creating without chaning the dynamics of balistics much since they generate so little heat.

I'm not arguing that ERPPCs should be some uber-weapon, the removal of ghost heat (though I'm not a fan), or should only generate 12 heat (like I think they were when I first started), but for the current heat system, 15 heat is just way too much.

[Kin3ticX]

I wouldnt nerf PPCs by damage or heat but it would be interesting if they were converted to hitscan-beam weapons. That way they would be a stronger large laser instead of a ammo-free autocannon 10. I never understood why a PPC HAD TO either fire a photon torpedo or a lightning bolt. This would also address any concerns with jump snipe 30-40pt pinpoint alphas. Though, I happen to think weapon balance is better than ever, LRMs and pulse could use a buff while leaving all else alone...mostly.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 29 November 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[verybad]

Bront, on 29 November 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Forgive me if I have trouble believing that. Unless you run nothing but lights or balistics only.

You can disbelieve it all you want. I simply don't play often enough to get all my mechs 2HS.. My most common mechs are Heavies. I bought most of them after I bought $100 worth of MC

Of course you have to play carefully with them if you want to be successful. But I don't,

I think maybe three of my mechs have 2HS. Teaches you to bank your shots.

[Lightfoot]

ERPPCs were reduced in heat from Battletech rated 15 to make them fit better with DHS 1.4's limitations. If they are going back to 15 heat permanently MWO needs to add DHS 2.0.

DHS 1.4 just reinforces MWO's GunWarrior take on MechWarrior because it creates a very low cooling cap for Energy weapons, but not other types of weapons. The reason this is bad is that MWO gives the players no reason to change their loadouts based on Map temperature. Players just bring Ballistic heavy loadouts to Frozen City and Tourmaline and the gameplay remains identical. You get no feeling that your Energy weapons are getting any sort of cooling buff at all. So that is a MechWarrior feature MWO players have never had the chance to experience or use tactically when we get Map selection options. Frozen City should be screamin ERPPCs and Lasers at -200 C, not massed autocannons.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Almond Brown, on 29 November 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Heat dissipation does nothing to solve the current Ballistic Meta issue. A better energy weapon just means more the of those ballistic builds could add "extra" damage to their profile. The same is true now. Want a cooler over all build, and have a Ballistic slot, fill it.

The Mechs without the option to add a Ballistic are currently suffering from GH, but without GH, we have seen the Meta. Now all that needs to happen in increase the Heat (or add the others to the GH team) or increase the Cool down of the Ballistic series to reduce the pin point (other whole topic btw) DPS issue.

Here is a AWS-9M that would be a good sniper. Added the Bells and Whistle bits to make it a complete Team player package. To bad about the lack of ECM though.

the awesome has far to large of a profile to attempt running such a light load, especially with only a standard 300. i would lose the erppcs altogether, pop in endo, at least a standard 325 and go with 2-3 LL or ERLL, and a streak 6 with BAP, losing the tag entirely. (only dedicated LRM boats and dedicated spotters REALLY need a tag, and lights are much better for spotting being able TO ACTUALLY RUN AWAY, something this mech (most awesomes actually. lol) cant do).

only PB has the speed to pull off 2 ERPPC builds, the 9M is far better off with mixed lasers and streaks+bap to chase off annoying lights. which also incidentally lets you hang back and support the team, which is good because the awesome is not a good front liner at all.

when i do run PPCS in my 9M its 3 PPC's and 1 SPL with a standard 325, and i hang back, play the classic awesome role of support sniper. and honestly its "alright" but greatly overshadowed by jump snipes like the highlander or victor. mostly because of its large profile, that makes it way to easy to hit, and also because the awesomes lack of mobility and its low mounted energy slots (does not peak over hills, any stalker PPC snipe makes mincemeat of awesomes because they only have to expose the tips of their torsos, same for battlemaster PPC snipes, they get super high energy mounts that just make the awesome, well not awesome at all .

in short the awesome is actually ONE OF THE WORST SNIPING MECHS, solely on the fact that it is such an easy target to hit and has less tactical options available to it, compared to other mechs OF THE SAME WEIGHT CLASS. and to try and compensate my making a speedy awesome (any xl in an awesome is basically an absolute nono because of its atlas like shoulders) you will often find yourself wholly outclassed, out armored and outgunned compared to the awesomes peer mechs..

mind you i love my awesomes, i hate that they aren't anything close to competitive.

Edited by Mellifluer, 30 November 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Kin3ticX, on 29 November 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I wouldnt nerf PPCs by damage or heat but it would be interesting if they were converted to hitscan-beam weapons. That way they would be a stronger large laser instead of a ammo-free autocannon 10. I never understood why a PPC HAD TO either fire a photon torpedo or a lightning bolt. This would also address any concerns with jump snipe 30-40pt pinpoint alphas. Though, I happen to think weapon balance is better than ever, LRMs and pulse could use a buff while leaving all else alone...mostly.

Because that is what it was in BT, a single bolt.
"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.[3] Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor.[4] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.[5] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

However, as I keep saying, the discussion is about ERPPCs, not PPCs. The issue is not just heat, but damage potentials and the ability to sustain fire. One AC5 outperforms a ERPPC for damage, due to PGI's firing speeds, whereas it use to be half the damage potential of an ERPPC. So the issues is exasberated due to not only the heat system, but the change in relative damage potential of the weapons due to radically altering firing speeds, nerfing DHS external to the engine, the heat system in general, and porting heat dissipation from BT, but increasing firing speeds from 19xs faster to 2.5 times faster.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 02 December 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Lightfoot]

15 heat is the Battletech heat value for ERPPCs and it requires Battletech full DHS 2.0 support to work. If MWO is not going to have external DHS at 2.0 then the Heat needs to be lowered by about 20%. This still overwhelmingly favors PGI's OP'd Ballistic mechs, but adds some measure of balance to ERPPC heat generation.

MechWarrior is not GunWarrior. The three weapon types are supposed to be equally good and 3xERPPCs should not be game breaking.

By relying on only heat-nerfs instead of balancing damage across all weapon types PGI has come to the conclusion that the Clans will need to not have real Clan tech. We'll see what that means, but any MechWarrior player knows that if your game can't support junky Inner Sphere ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles it will never handle Clan Tech or a Clan Invasion. I just hope the Clan Invasion is more than a famous Clan Mech chassis sale. Wouldn't that ruin the whole point of it?

Edited by Lightfoot, 03 December 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Read the latest epistle from St Paul -Clan mechs will be skin deep only in their resemblance to BT. Fine by me as IS anyways. It also means we might get the invasion sometime this decade.