532 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

I seem to remember that argument going around back in CB Ngamok. There was to much crying t get better convergence and less random. Now we have players yelling rightly that Convergence was done wrong. Wish I could go back and find my responses for those Buff convergence threads!

[Lefty Lucy]

Ngamok, on 13 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I don't agree. I don't want a weapon system that can shoot all day with no kind of drawback. All ballistic boats at some point run out of ammo. I've seen it lots of times. Heat to 12 or possibly 13 is out in my book. I run 2 ER PPCs in my TDR-5SE along with 4 medium lasers. They are for two different roles. Snipe with the arm and brawl with the torso. I have the ER PPCs set to chain fire in brawl range so that way if I need to get a quick hit in and have the ehat I can shoot them one at a time. I don't want people out there wanting to alpha strike 4 ER PPCs all match with no sort of a drawback. You mentioned increasing ghost heat for anything past 2, still no. I can still fire them 2+2 and avoid that ghost heat all day with 12 heat ER PPCs.

12 or 13 heat is still hotter than a regular PPC, which cannot be fired "all day with no kind of drawback." Reducing the heat of an ERPPC by two is not going to allow effective ERPPC builds that are heat-neutral. It's going to allow ERPPCs to be an actual choice, whose benefits are commensurate with their drawbacks.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 December 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

12 or 13 heat is still hotter than a regular PPC, which cannot be fired "all day with no kind of drawback." Reducing the heat of an ERPPC by two is not going to allow effective ERPPC builds that are heat-neutral. It's going to allow ERPPCs to be an actual choice, whose benefits are commensurate with their drawbacks.

The problem is Heat Neutral Energy builds existed. Not a complete energy build, but the Thug was a completely cool running PPC Toting Mech! it could fire both PPC and both SRM6 and stay in the negatives on heat running! I tried this on the Prettybaby... not the same by a long stick.

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

The problem is Heat Neutral Energy builds existed. Not a complete energy build, but the Thug was a completely cool running PPC Toting Mech! it could fire both PPC and both SRM6 and stay in the negatives on heat running! I tried this on the Prettybaby... not the same by a long stick.

That's cause heat dissipation rates are still set for fire rates of once every 10 seconds. in fact the entire mech design system is still very much classic TT. What happened is when PGI changed fire rates and didn't scale down heat and damage correctly. this resulted in a 250% increase in damage/ heat output for PPC's.

if you want to scale PPC's to a fire rate of 4 seconds correctly. multiply heat and damage by the ratio of the new over old fire rates or 4/10. new heat and damage is 4/4. it is also the same damage/heat potential as TT but with more pew pew. exactly as intended, but someone did it wrong. you can't simple change the fire rate without perverting the cost functions.

PGI partially correct there mistake with 2x armor and stronger internals but the fundamental relation ships between weapons but over all armor and internals are still 50% lower then they should be relative to the PPC'S.

Mechs are doing way too much damage and generating way too much heat with a heat cap system that is completely unnecessary.

[St4LkeRxF]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 December 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

12 or 13 heat is still hotter than a regular PPC, which cannot be fired "all day with no kind of drawback." Reducing the heat of an ERPPC by two is not going to allow effective ERPPC builds that are heat-neutral. It's going to allow ERPPCs to be an actual choice, whose benefits are commensurate with their drawbacks.

ERPPC isn't that hot as you think, problem is that we have many maps that are hot and are not good for weapon that have extreme long range which in a way favours more heat efficient PPC.

Even on hot maps you can use ERPPC effectively if you make every shot counts, and have decent team that wont let you to end up surrounded.

[Lefty Lucy]

St4LkeRxF, on 13 December 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

ERPPC isn't that hot as you think, problem is that we have many maps that are hot and are not good for weapon that have extreme long range which in a way favours more heat efficient PPC.

Even on hot maps you can use ERPPC effectively if you make every shot counts, and have decent team that wont let you to end up surrounded.

You mean if you make yourself a huge liability to your team because you cannot fully participate in the fight.

The ERPPC is exactly as hot as I think it is. It generates 3.75 heat per second, which would require over 20 double heat sinks to keep cool with 1.4-out-of-engine-dubs. For a single ERPPC.

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

The problem is Heat Neutral Energy builds existed. Not a complete energy build, but the Thug was a completely cool running PPC Toting Mech! it could fire both PPC and both SRM6 and stay in the negatives on heat running! I tried this on the Prettybaby... not the same by a long stick.

Hell, the Hellstar is a pretty-damned-close to heat neutral build with 4 Clan ERPPCs.

[St4LkeRxF]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 December 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

You mean if you make yourself a huge liability to your team because you cannot fully participate in the fight.

The ERPPC is exactly as hot as I think it is. It generates 3.75 heat per second, which would require over 20 double heat sinks to keep cool with 1.4-out-of-engine-dubs. For a single ERPPC.

All this was with http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8292ff7d24c663

[Joseph Mallan]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 December 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

You mean if you make yourself a huge liability to your team because you cannot fully participate in the fight.

The ERPPC is exactly as hot as I think it is. It generates 3.75 heat per second, which would require over 20 double heat sinks to keep cool with 1.4-out-of-engine-dubs. For a single ERPPC.



Hell, the Hellstar is a pretty-damned-close to heat neutral build with 4 Clan ERPPCs.

i know!

Unlike many players, I like Powerhouse builds that can melt off the enemy's face!

[Joseph Mallan]

St4LkeRxF, on 13 December 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

All this was with http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8292ff7d24c663

Not to be disrespectful but that wasn't a lot of damage AND there were a lot of Assists provided with equally good damage done. Your accomplishment is good, but not amazing.

[St4LkeRxF]

I only point out that ERPPC can be good if team support you, and they can't go back to where they were and that is to be equally good for sniping and brawling

[Lupus Aurelius]

St4LkeRxF, on 13 December 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I only point out that ERPPC can be good if team support you, and they can't go back to where they were and that is to be equally good for sniping and brawling

And why not, the AC's are. That's a silly premise, the issue was never that, it was PPC boating, not ERPPC boating. Ans the Dual ERPPC / Gauss combo was the second issue, and with the travel speed changes and Gauss firing nerf, that is effectively nerfed as well. A non ballistic mech should be able to use dual ERPPCs just as effectively as a ballistic mech using Dual AC5/UAC5/'AC10. The Awesome was specifically designed as a ERPPC/PPC platform.

[MavRCK]

bump

[Joseph Mallan]

RandomLurker, on 06 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

The problem is heat dissipation. A lower cap+higher dissipation would still prevent heavy alpha, but would make high heat weapons like ERPPC viable over time.

I saw a suggestion recently to make this part of the SHS/DHS balance- one for high cap/low dissipation (as current), another for low cap, high dissipation. Sounds like it would solve multiple balance problems at once to me.

Actually it does not prevent me from having a 48 point alpha (2 Large, 2 Medium, AC20) And it did not stop my 61 point alpha D-DC. 16 double sinks would have made my 2 Large, 2 SRM6, AC20 Atlas a cold running beast to contend with.

[Almond Brown]

Tombstoner, on 13 December 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

stuff

If you want to scale PPC's to a fire rate of 4 seconds correctly. multiply heat and damage by the ratio of the new over old fire rates or 4/10. new heat and damage is 4/4. it is also the same damage/heat potential as TT but with more pew pew. exactly as intended, but someone did it wrong. you can't simple change the fire rate without perverting the cost functions.

stuff

No offense but, having the same "potential" is simply BS. What you propose is that to get the 10 points of damage my PPC's should provide every trigger pull, I may have to fire the weapon 3-4 times, assuming even 1 miss in that cluster(frak) of shots, I now am carrying a "potential" 10 point damage weapon with NO chance to hit a target with one trigger pull to achieve that 10 points.

You want to do the funny maths? OK, but you had best divide the weight and range factors by 4 as well. Otherwise that 4/4 makes that PPC a joke to ever carry at 3 slots and 7 tons for a "potential" 10 point damage weapon.

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 February 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[Damocles69]

At15 heat using anymore that 1 ERPPC in a viable build really isn't possible. Try 14 and if that is still hot try 13. Incremental change>massive balance swings. We already know 12 heat is to cool and 15 is to hot. Let's Goldie Locks this shizz and find the number berween 12 and 15 that is just right.

[Tombstoner]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Having the same "potential" is BS. What you propose is that to get the 10 points of damage my PPC's should provide, I may have to fire the weapon 3-4 times. Assuming even 1 miss in the cluster(frak) I now am carrying a potential 10 point damage weapon with NO chance to hit a target with one trigger pull to achieve that 10 points.

You want to do the funny maths? OK, but you had best divide the weight and range factors by 4 as well. Otherwise that 4/4 makes that PPC a joke to ever carry at 3 slots and 7 tons for a "potential" 10 point damage weapon.

The math is for scaling weapons correctly so you preserve the relation ship between TT damage,TT armor values: in effect time to kill. then balance as MWO needs. There function will be exactly the same. except for the rate for fire and potential to miss. but that is exactly what your for scaling for... the pew pew rate.

The way PGI did it fubared inter and intra weapon balance and TTK. since inter weapons damage is the same, tonnage, range and size needs dont need to be changed at all. don't focus on the 10 damage its an abstract value defining the relation ship of the PPC to other weapons. since they all scale the same that relationship is preserved. the time to penetrate armor is the same. if armor values are also not change from TT. then rebalance for MWO needs.

This scaling technique is common in chemistry and other fields.

[Khobai]

Erppcs are too hot because their heat is too high. No other reason. Simple fix is to lower their heat and reduce their pinpoint damage by giving them a splash damage component.

[NRP]

Wow, this is an awesome thread! I can't believe I missed it back then.

The ERPPC is the poster child for "over nerf". The very same issues are going to be front and center again when the Clan mechs go live. Many of them have ERPPCs in their default loadouts.

People seem to have an irrational amount of hate for/fear of PPCs/ERPPCs, yet they seem to be perfectly happy with Ballistics Warrior Online.

[Trauglodyte]

The ERPPC is fine. People that complain about it are bad and have absolutely zero weapon/heat discipline. There is nothing to discuss here.

[Gorgo7]

Trauglodyte, on 06 February 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

The ERPPC is fine. People that complain about it are bad and have absolutely zero weapon/heat discipline. There is nothing to discuss here.

Awesome 9M, stock build.
3 ERPPC, 20 DHS.
Try it some day. It'll change your outlook, smart guy.