532 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I wonder if I should redo my heat efficiency charts for the current stats and mechanics... The old ones are still in my sig.

Okay, here they are: http://mwomercs.com/...rts-2011-11-10/

Spoiler

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

The only thing that is imho penalizing energybased Mechs (and some Weaponsystems like ac2) is the current "Ghost Heat" implementation.
While i admit i find it very good as a mean of prohibiting "abuse" (if you may call it that way) of the relatively open Mechlab modifications. I would advocate a perk system for chasis underlining their intended purpose e.g. :

Catapults (except K2) are primary designed as Long Range Missile carriers, acting as field artillery of sorts.
why not give them a Perk like: increases the Weapon Limit for Ghost Heat by 2 if using LRM.

Warhawk Prime (4x ER PPC)
(i know there is none atm) but the stock variant is not playable by the current rules set.
By all means yeah sure it can alpha once and after that either retreat and cool off, or fire in a 3-4 sec staccato a single ER-PPC.
None then less it basically disqualifies the chassis as usable in its stock configuration ...
I am well aware that none of us (at least i hope so) want a return of alphastrike warrior, but the whole Ghost Heat mechanism needs tweaks to allow mechs in their designated role.

[Karl Streiger]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 11 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Warhawk Prime (4x ER PPC)
(i know there is none atm) but the stock variant is not playable by the current rules set)

you can semi alpha or you can fire in chain - that is not not useable in my eyes

Although that is not a quality of Ghost Heat or weapon heat - but the heat system of MWO in general (still the heat dissipation of a 10sec cylce - in case of the DHS even worse)

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

Karl Streiger, on 11 October 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

you can semi alpha or you can fire in chain - that is not not useable in my eyes

Although that is not a quality of Ghost Heat or weapon heat - but the heat system of MWO in general (still the heat dissipation of a 10sec cylce - in case of the DHS even worse)

:-) I guess you nevertheless understand what i meant :-)

It is a whole lot of additions to a imho simple system (BT TT HEAT even if yo take solaris VII rulesset) that in it self is consistent. The whole Heatsystem is currently at best a workaround and no way something worth calling a system.

The idea with the Targeting computer (thats why i picked the Warhawk :-) ) seems to me as a good idea and in it self rather true to the universe canon.

The inheret Problem is what you already said, the heat dissipation is true to TT values more or less, but the rate of fire increased drastically. Therefore the whole system goes haywire.

Just to clearify:

Personally i think Homless Bill's Idea is superior to the current penalty system.
Though i doubt that PGI will implement it, therefore the crutch with chassis perks.

Edited by Peter Thorndyke IV, 11 October 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 11 October 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

The inheret Problem is what you already said, the heat dissipation is true to TT values more or less, but the rate of fire increased drastically. Therefore the whole system goes haywire.

Just to clearify:

Personally i think Homless Bill's Idea is superior to the current penalty system.
Though i doubt that PGI will implement it, therefore the crutch with chassis perks.

Bill's general concept is solid, good read for anyone: http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780

And, agreed, the heat system, convergence, and basically omni mechs as far as fitting are the crux of the issue, but like you stated, PGI is less than likely to implement them. Which leaves us all having to argue balance based on current heat systems.

You can not keep the TT heat dissipation rates while tripling rate of weapon fire, that's why it is so amusing when someone says that " ERPPCs are the same heat as in TT". Under the current system, no, they are not. Nor are any other weapons, but the issues show up more extreme for the high heat energy weapons than for the low heat ballistic weapons. I'm sure no one wants a 10 sec recycle time on all the weapons, so obviously, it you are going to more than triple firing speeds, you have to adjust heat dissipation rates, or you have to adjust weapon heat levels, or both. That is why increasing the ERPPC to 15 heat under the current system is just horribly unbalanced, the original TT system, you fired them every 10 seconds, your DHS were actual DHS that all dissipated .2 heat per second. Not that TT was perfect, but they had a couple decades to work out balancing.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

So Lupus, I'm hoping you're ready to make this post the first post in the next ask the dev's, you've already got my vote.

[JohnnyWayne]

PPC and Ballistics have the same area of effect - none "aoe" or one location. Otherwise the damage would spread and that has been demented by PGI. Oh and there were always many Cataphracts and jagers.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 11 October 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Homeless Bill]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 11 October 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Personally i think Homless Bill's Idea is superior to the current penalty system.

Lupus Aurelius, on 11 October 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Bill's general concept is solid, good read for anyone: http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780

It makes all that writing worth it to know it's still showing up these days. If you like that idea but recognize that they're never going to touch convergence, you might take a look at its hotter sister (no, I don't feel bad about that pun). I'm not a huge fan of Ghost Heat, but it could sure be a lot less ******.

[Lightfoot]

Heat Scale and DHS 1.4 together is too much heat nerfing. It invalidates Mechs like the AWS-8Q and many energy reliant Assault and Heavy mechs. There is no need for an Assault class mech that carries only medium lasers.

If the mech can carry a Ballistic weapon then they can work out a config that is competitive with Heat Scale and DHS 1.4, if Energy-only they are very gimped.

The other result of DHS 1.4 plus Heat Scale is that I have skipped many of the recently released mechs based on their ability, or lack their of, to carry Ballistic weapons which is all MWO can do competitively now. I am not alone in this.

Since PPCs and ERPPCs have been restored to their Battletech heat values, DHS must also be restored to full DHS 2.0 to support them. It really only affects Energy reliant Assaults who are going to invest in 17-22 DHS and thus it should be balanced since these mechs can not carry any or few ballistics due to heatsink space requirements.

Right now MWO is just hobbling along by nerfing Energy weapons to auxillary add-ons and the Battletech Mechs are not balanced without working Energy weapons. If MWO is going to just be GunWarrior forever, give every mech a Ballistic hardpoint even if they did not carry Ballistics in Battletech. If you want all MechWarrior mechs to work, give us DHS 2.0.

[JohnnyWayne]

I, as a heavy pilot, also have 18 - 19 DHS loaded for my Marauder and it still overheats insanely easy. I probably should add coolshot... But thats also something I actually don't want...

I want to mention, that DHS are not double because lights would be op then (they sort of are already). But currently lights don't even load more than the eninge heat sinks and won't do then either. Thats just a dummy argument.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 12 October 2013 - 05:59 AM.

[CrashieJ]

mechs should have perks in their design

make them different

not just a reskin

[RolfS]

MWO is playing like a broken record at the moment. Get rid of ghost heat and 1.4 dbl heat sinks guass delay and all the othe nonsense preventing alpha striking mechs. Dakka-Dakka mech fights are dull and uninspiring.

[Lightfoot]

JohnnyWayne, on 12 October 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

I, as a heavy pilot, also have 18 - 19 DHS loaded for my Marauder and it still overheats insanely easy. I probably should add coolshot... But thats also something I actually don't want...

I want to mention, that DHS are not double because lights would be op then (they sort of are already). But currently lights don't even load more than the eninge heat sinks and won't do then either. Thats just a dummy argument.

QFT

Lights already have all the DHS 2.0s they need with the 10 engine DHS in an XL, so full DHS 2.0 would not buff them very much if at all. They would rather have more speed/weapons and run hot frankly, and this is not news to anyone.

Energy based Assaults and large Energy weapons is where DHS 2.0's are necessary. I think the massed PPC alphas are blocked pretty well by Heat Scale and the game would improve 10 times if players with energy configs could manage their heat in battle instead of just peck away and shutdown all the time like they do now.

Edited by Lightfoot, 12 October 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

Homeless Bill, on 11 October 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

It makes all that writing worth it to know it's still showing up these days. If you like that idea but recognize that they're never going to touch convergence, you might take a look at its hotter sister (no, I don't feel bad about that pun). I'm not a huge fan of Ghost Heat, but it could sure be a lot less ******.

:-) Fully aware of that suggestion, nevertheless, the Targeting Computer seems still a lot better.
(though, you are right about rather trying to push the current system in the right place, instead of trying to advocate a much better idea that nevertheless will probably not even be considered)
Especially since it would allow a really good way of inserting the Targeting Computer as a meaningfull Asset instead as spare crits and tons, as the Command Console currently is.

For what reason else would you need an Targeting Computer in a mech currently?
Right.
NONE ! The targeting is anyways pinpoint accurate as long as convergence is achived, basically making any mech we pilot currently being equipped with a Targeting Computer equivalent.

[KAT Ayanami]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 11 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

The only thing that is imho penalizing energybased Mechs (and some Weaponsystems like ac2) is the current "Ghost Heat" implementation.
While i admit i find it very good as a mean of prohibiting "abuse" (if you may call it that way) of the relatively open Mechlab modifications. I would advocate a perk system for chasis underlining their intended purpose e.g. :

Catapults (except K2) are primary designed as Long Range Missile carriers, acting as field artillery of sorts.
why not give them a Perk like: increases the Weapon Limit for Ghost Heat by 2 if using LRM.

Warhawk Prime (4x ER PPC)
(i know there is none atm) but the stock variant is not playable by the current rules set.
By all means yeah sure it can alpha once and after that either retreat and cool off, or fire in a 3-4 sec staccato a single ER-PPC.
None then less it basically disqualifies the chassis as usable in its stock configuration ...
I am well aware that none of us (at least i hope so) want a return of alphastrike warrior, but the whole Ghost Heat mechanism needs tweaks to allow mechs in their designated role.

How about we take your catapult example (non-k2 variants) and we make the energy hard points smaller so they cannot mount so many ERLLs.

Ghost heat and other items like the delay on the Gauss are making this more complicated that it needs to be.
If you now add perks, this will blow out of proportion.

Limit the hard points like in MW4 (like many have suggested) and you will only see dedicated mechs boating some weapons (like 3 ppc Awesome).

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

KAT Ayanami, on 14 October 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

How about we take your catapult example (non-k2 variants) and we make the energy hard points smaller so they cannot mount so many ERLLs.

Ghost heat and other items like the delay on the Gauss are making this more complicated that it needs to be.
If you now add perks, this will blow out of proportion.

Perks would be a rather simple addont to the existing mechanics, while Slot sizes would require a complete owerhaul of the mounting system and the weapons, plus a complete rework of the Mechs (adding a Size x slot instead the universal Weapon mount)

I can't really see the point why chassis Perks would blow it up out of proportion.

It would allow a immersing description of each chassis, making each one unique and at the same time allowing to correct some of those rather hilarious effects of Ghost Heat.


P.S.

The more i have to think about it the more (as much as i don't like it) this whole Ghost Heat thing makes sense.
Maybe we have to look at it from a simple engineering principle.
We are talking about a Cooling System (ok described by a number of heat sinks), it is designed to acomplish the cooling of the mech with a maximum of ... whatever the designer was thinking about. With a sudden unproportional stressing of the system eg. it is designed to handle ( just for example ) 25000 W of Heat within its specs, suddenly you tax it with 50000 W it wont perform a linear 50% efficiency drop, it will be more likley to go below 25% Efficiency.

I hope the note makes sense

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Real DHS would certainly benefit my mediums without making them OP. It may improve Heavies a bit too much, but I;m sure they can find another kludge for that.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 14 October 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Real DHS would certainly benefit my mediums without making them OP. It may improve Heavies a bit too much, but I;m sure they can find another kludge for that.

Actually, they said that actual DHS would make the Jenner too powerful...well, that was before ghost heat.

[Karl Streiger]

Lupus Aurelius, on 14 October 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Actually, they said that actual DHS would make the Jenner too powerful...well, that was before ghost heat.

The Jenner is neighter effected by Ghost Heat nor does it get any additional benefits by giving the DHS the full 2.0 dissipation.
Thats why I think that statement is very biased.
JR7-F
Because - nobody with a little idea how mechlab and heat works now that - this Jenner got his biggest benefit from the 10 DHS in engine that work wit 2.0 rating. At best you are able to mount 13 or 14 DHS - for reduction of Speed or Armor - and even with 2.0 rating those additonal 2-4 heatsinks wont really change anything.
if there were really concerned not to make the Jenner to powerful they the ghost heat should have started at 4 instead of 6 MLAS (the Awesome can't work with its 3 PPC so why should the Hunchback?) and the engine heatsinks as well as the additional heatsinks had the same rating - for example 1.7
That would nerf heatsinks for all mech but energy boats like the AWS-9Q (this Mech would not be effected when heatsinks are nerfed)


Anyhow - with 1.7 Dissipation and 1.7 capacity - they work as at 3.4 regarding TT standard ~ 170%
The ERPPC does 37,5 heat regarding TT standard - 250%
So considering the TT standard the heat and the RoF does not fit the heat system - but that is nothing new right?

[MustrumRidcully]

Lupus Aurelius, on 14 October 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Actually, they said that actual DHS would make the Jenner too powerful...well, that was before ghost heat.

Yes, they came up with the idea of a Jenner that could core an Atlas in 3 seconds.

What kind of Jenner build did they devise that could even overheat in 3 seconds with standard heat sinks, and make their way through the rearm armor and internals of an Atlas in 3 seconds?