86 replies to this topic

[Wip3ou7]

Think outside the box. I'm not talking about climbing to the top of the map every game. This can be used to get assaults with 1 JJ up and over walls in Canyon Network that they wouldn't be able to climb under the previous mechanics. You can also get scout mechs to the top walls of Terra Therma in many advantageous positions. Maybe it's hard for some people to use their imagination to apply this exploit to more feasible situations. I chose the spot that I did in the video to demonstrate that the height or slope doesnt matter because it can be performed indefinitely. An LRM spotter in a similar position would definitely provide a huge advantage. No one would ever see them and they have a clear view of the entire map.

If you can't figure out how to use this to your advantage, I feel bad for you.

This post was made for the devs, not the forum trolls.

Edited by Wip3ou7, 07 October 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Eddrick, on 07 October 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Interesting find. People have been screaming to give Jump Jets automatic forward momentum as a nerf to Poptarting.

Well unless they remove JJ's altogether you cannot stop us from poptarting, just eliminates the baddies from doing it as they are not as capable to adjust/adapt so easily. Same thing with the Gauss and PPC 'nerfs', only has the desired effects on the baddies.

As for the rock climbing, have at it. It is a massive waste of time to climb the highest peaks. Spend 2-3 minutes to crest said peak and then realize that the battle has shifted and is out of all your weapons effective range. Not sure how it is that OP has determined this as OP.


^^^Now that's OP.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 07 October 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Kaijin]

Otto Cannon, on 07 October 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

There are only two ways to go; either have no forward impulse at all which everyone hated so it got changed, or allow some lateral movement which will allow hill climbing regardless of how you do it.

Not really. It could be set up so only three or more jump jets provide forward impulse, requiring mechs that have them to carry closer to their full amount of them if they want to climb. With less than three, they could still momentum hop.

Edited by Kaijin, 07 October 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Wip3ou7]

xMEPHISTOx, on 07 October 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

As for the rock climbing, have at it. It is a massive waste of time to climb the highest peaks. Spend 2-3 minutes to crest said peak and then realize that the battle has shifted and is out of all your weapons effective range. Not sure how it is that OP has determined this as OP.

Read the post just above yours

Edited by Wip3ou7, 07 October 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Toong]

I don't see the problem. It took you 3 minutes to get to the top, and even when you get there, enemy 'mechs can fire at you just as easily as you can fire at them. And since you have nowhere to run that wouldn't require another minute to get back into position, I don't see how this makes jump jets OP.

[Otto Cannon]

Kaijin, on 07 October 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Not really. It could be set up so only three or more jump jets provide forward impulse, requiring mechs that have them to carry closer to their full amount of them if they want to climb. With less than three, they could still momentum hop.

True, but why? I don't see any pressing need to do that given that more jets still give you an advantage when normal jumping and you wouldn't 'realistically' need more than one to hop up hills. You would just be arbitrarily penalising mechs with less jj for no actual gameplay reason.

I'm fine with rewarding extra investment in more jumpjets with a proper jumping distance increase, just not basing hill-hopping ability on that too.

Remember we're talking about mechs which in canon can climb without jets anyway if they have hands.

[OneEyed Jack]

Wip3ou7, on 07 October 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Anything that provides more efficient functionality than is intended, is by definition "over-powered".

You said it yourself: "more efficient".

You have in no way offered a suggestion in which this wasting of time is even as efficient as not carrying JJ's at all, but you persist in thinking the opportunity to waste time is somehow OP.

Having a large slow mech waste time this way is rarely going to offer an advantage that's not outweighed by the disadvantage that a large, slow mech was wasting time instead of helping and/or getting to where the fight is actually taking place. And scouts could pretty much already get to nearly all of those places.

I file your logic in the same trash bin as posts about Boar's Head being OP.

[Hexenhammer]

Because this....

Wip3ou7, on 07 October 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

http://youtu.be/-2-72JjTiXQ <--- VIDEO DEMONSTRATION

Regardless of weight , speed or number of jumpjets, any mech with a single jumpjet can climb a surface of any incline or height by repeatedly tapping the jumpjet button. Because the forward momentum is applied nearly full force at the time of pressing the jumpjet (instead of forward momentum being applied gradually in the air linear to the upwards thrust). I can get a victor with 1 jumpjet to the highest point on any map. Buildings are 90 degrees up and so are still unclimbable but anything with less than a 90 degree slope can be climbed with a single jumpjet using the tapping technique. The tap climb can be used indefinitely, as you tap you constantly are forced forward and up in small increments and the JJ recharges fully between each tap, so you basically spend nothing (fuel wise) to climb a massive 85 degree mountain slope in your 85 ton mech which has no momentum and 1 JJ.

I think the solution is simple, as I said above, less forward thrust on initialization, more forward thrust the longer the JJ is held.

. ... Is a lot more sensational and will put more people in a panic than...

PGi I found a way to exploit the jump key mechanics. Here is a video on how it works. http://youtu.be/-2-72JjTiXQ.

[Wip3ou7]

Hexenhammer, on 07 October 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Because this..... ... Is a lot more sensational and will put more people in a panic than...

PGi I found a way to exploit the jump key mechanics. Here is a video on how it works. http://youtu.be/-2-72JjTiXQ.

What is sensational about any of that? All I did was describe the exploit and how to perform it, and then I offered a solution.

[RandomLurker]

So the OP is saying that JJ increase the mobility of the mech that's carrying them.

Say it ain't so.

[CrashieJ]

I'm thinking of this equation;

#JumpJets * BaseSpeed / Tonnage = strength of forward momentum

where a spider with 4 JJs can accelerate forward and upward faster than a Highlander with one JJ.

because I'm sick of the bickering and right now I'M THE ONLY ONE MAKING SENSE

[Sephlock]

Not only is this not new, it's pretty obvious.

... but now PGI is going to devote their energies toward "fixing" things instead of... oh, i don't know.

CW?

Knockdown?

MOAR DAKKA?

[Lexx]

As it is now the first jump jets is 3 times more effective than any jets added after it. It makes no sense to me that the first jump jet would provide so much thrust with every jet added providing a negligible improvement. One jump jet shouldn't even be able to get a mech off the ground in most cases.

I made a suggestion thread about this over a month ago, but it pretty much got ignored. If you look at the stats of most mechs, there are a few that add less than the maximum (like the Shadowhawk, Anvil, and Gunslinger), but none of them only mount only one jump jet.

As mechs get heavier, so do their jump jets, with the tonnage required for one jump jet doubling at 60 and 90 tons. It doesn't make sense to me that a 20 ton mech should get the same benefit as a 55 tonner from each jump jet. What I suggested is that all jump jets should give the same amount of thrust. As it is now the first jump jet provides 3 seconds of thrust and each jet added only provides one more. I think all jump jets should provide 2 seconds of thrust each.

A 20-30 ton mech could still get off the ground with one jet, but 35-45 would need 2, and 50-55 ton mechs would need 3 jump jets minimum just to get airborne. They go from .5 to 1 ton at 60 tons, so a 60-70 ton mech would only need 2 jets to get off the ground but a 75-85 ton mech would need 3. They are 2 tons each for mechs 90-100 tons, so a 90 ton mech could get airborne with 2 jets. A jumping 100 tonner (if we ever get one), would need 3 minimum.

I think this fix would stop most mechs from being able to get so much benefit from a single jump jet, as well as add good reason to mount more. Spiders would literally fly around with the 8-12 jets some can mount, but I think that would actually be a lot of fun and bring more players into the game.

[OneEyed Jack]

gavilatius, on 07 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

The amount of forward momentum is already pretty minimal, so you'd either be having Spiders doing Hulk jumps....



... or jumping Heavies and Assaults would go back to just bouncing up/down.

The OP would still be in full-blown tin-foil hat made, because his issue isn't with the amount of time wasted doing it, but the possibility of it happening at all. If you didn't remove the possibility, all you would do would be increase the time wasted.

[nemesis271989]

OneEyed Jack, on 07 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

The amount of forward momentum is already pretty minimal, so you'd either be having Spiders doing Hulk jumps....



... or jumping Heavies and Assaults would go back to just bouncing up/down.

The OP would still be in full-blown tin-foil hat made, because his issue isn't with the amount of time wasted doing it, but the possibility of it happening at all. If you didn't remove the possibility, all you would do would be increase the time wasted.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL... I was laughing at that like crazy. That's a secret interview of a spider PILOt....

[CrashieJ]

OneEyed Jack, on 07 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Reasonable Stuff

most of the mechanics PGI implements is nothing but a waste of time, so... what are you getting at?

---
firepoking aside, the equation can be modified where spiders and highlanders can jump within reason of Physics.

also, aren't spiders SUPPOSED to be the jumping Junebugs of the battletech world?

[Kaijin]

Sephlock, on 07 October 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Not only is this not new, it's pretty obvious.

... but now PGI is going to devote their energies toward "fixing" things instead of... oh, i don't know.

CW?

Knockdown?

MOAR DAKKA?

They have thus far devoted their energies to "fixing" things. I'm just not sure they ever test their fixes. But surely whoever coded jump jet behavior isn't doing all the work on CW?

I've long held that MWO jump jets are unsatisfactory both in height achieved and distance traveled, but one jump jet shouldn't be able to do much more than the brief levitation needed to make a quick turn.

[Doc Andrews]

It'll tell you that at the highest level of 12 man organized play, this change has dominated the tactics of two maps and become a factor in a third.

The worst/best example is the new map. The insanely high mountain in the center. If you get up to the top in a single JJ Victor/Highlander, the advantage is insane. Most mechs don't have a vertical arc that can reach that high unless you're horizontally so far away that you're doing almost no damage. So we're talking about, effectively, one way LoS.

It basically gives the team that gets up there first a massive dead spot all around the center of the map, unless that want to take an unavoidable DoT, get bogged down behind buildings, etc. In short, whichever side exploits the mountain/single JJ synergy is usually the winner.

I won't say if this is right, or wrong. But that's just the way it is.

If these are the mechanics that PGI intended to single-handedly undo all of the prior terrain/climbing fixes that they've made, mission accomplished.

If this is an unintended side effect, just know that we're seeing it used commonly in matches between the top 3 or 4 clans in Europe right now. And (not speaking for any particular clan here, just a general assumption) we'll continue to use it until it's changed or made illegal, because to do otherwise would be encouraging losing play.

Simply put: It's most likely an unintended exploit, but until PGI comes out and admits it, expect it to be used a lot in 12 on 12, and potentially ruin the (whatever amount of) fun in PUGs.

[Xendojo]

This is just another example of PGI making and then implementing a bad design decision.

[Sephlock]

Kaijin, on 08 October 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

They have thus far devoted their energies to "fixing" things. I'm just not sure they ever test their fixes. But surely whoever coded jump jet behavior isn't doing all the work on CW?

I agree with you in spirit, but what is the alternate explanation for non "fixing things" things not getting done ?