86 replies to this topic

[ArmageddonKnight]

JJ's need finite fuel. They could then undo the recent changes and this bug wouldnt be present. it would also limit JJ's mainly to their primary purpose of being used for terrain manuvering and not poptardding. You could still poptardd but u would soon run out of fuel and not be able to do it anymore.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 08 October 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Magna Canus]

Doc Andrews, on 08 October 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

It'll tell you that at the highest level of 12 man organized play, this change has dominated the tactics of two maps and become a factor in a third.

Well I guess in such cases LRMs might be useful again. From what I know of 12 man organized play (which is admittedly limited knowledge) just about anything is min/maxed, used and abused, and so meta-washed that having a bottle cap in one side of the map is a big thing. The same physics dont apply to non 12 man play, or at least on a drastically smaller scale which is why for a lot of people this is absolutely not matterial.

Edited by Magnakanus, 08 October 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[SgtMaster]

JJ's are still broken, i am still getting motion sickness even from 1 mounted JJ... still useless...

[Nihtgenga]

Anybody not seeing the advantage of this 1JJ-exploit must either be blind or joking. Most mechs do not have the ability to even see a nearby enemy (e.g. 300m, so outside the "low signal" indication) with ECM. Being able to park an ECM-equipped sniper undetected somewhere is definitely an advantage, but that's ok with JJ - what is not ok is requiring only one instead of many. It allows those to either pack more punch (higher weapon load) or even use much heavier mechs for that purpose. Even if detected by LOS, LRMs will not be useful against such snipers unless the LRM-mech gets supported by a BAP/ECM carrying second mech that counters the snipers ECM, because of the Torso/Arm-movement restrictions of the chassis.

Maybe not an immediate neckbreaker, but especially in premade groups it is an edge you get over the enemy.

[Kaijin]

ArmageddonKnight, on 08 October 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

JJ's need finite fuel. They could then undo the recent changes and this bug wouldnt be present. it would also limit JJ's mainly to their primary purpose of being used for terrain manuvering and not poptardding. You could still poptardd but u would soon run out of fuel and not be able to do it anymore.

Well, if MWO was adhering to canon, I'd quote this:
"Jump jets work in a similar, albeit more limited, fashion to the fusion rockets installed on Aerospace Fighters. Inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber buried deep inside the 'Mech, an electron beam superheats a reaction mass and expels the expanding gases through nozzles located on the back of the 'Mech or in its legs. Reaction mass is commonly provided in the form of air forced into the reaction chamber by a system of turbo-compressors, but most 'Mechs have a small amount of alternate reaction mass, usually in the form of hydrogen, water or mercury, in order to facilitate operation in a vacuum and to reduce the wear on the jets from superheated oxygen when in an atmosphere that contains it[2]. The reaction mass provided by an atmosphere is effectively infinite, but the supplementary reaction mass carried on-board is limited by the number of thruster assemblies installed unless additional tankage is added to the 'Mech"
http://www.sarna.net...Jet#cite_note-2

And given that matches rarely last longer than 12 minutes, I doubt the alternate reaction mass is gonna run out.

Of course, MWO doesn't adhere to canon, so anything is possible. I for one am opposed to limited JJ fuel.

[Kaijin]

Nihtgenga, on 08 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Being able to park an ECM-equipped sniper

The only ECM mech with jumpjets and arm-mounted weapons is the Spider, which at most is going to have 1 ER PPC to be plinking away with. Because up/down torso movement is so limited, it takes arm mounts to bring weapons to bear from high places. Now a premade team of a Catapult and an ECM Spider could be dangerous.

I hopped up to the top of a peak on Crimson training grounds in a Cat C4 with 4 LRM10s and could bring my LRM pods to bear on every target within range.

I am not against this tactic, as it adds something to an otherwise monotonous grind. But as previously stated, I agree with you about requiring more than one JJ to pull it off.

Edited by Kaijin, 08 October 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[El Death Smurf]

make the mountain and any other JJ exploitable land mark an out of bounds dead zone. problem solved. JJ are still fine (useful for getting to hard to reach areas as well as completely nerfing jump sniping)

[Burke IV]

Doc Andrews, on 08 October 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

It basically gives the team that gets up there first a massive dead spot all around the center of the map, unless that want to take an unavoidable DoT, get bogged down behind buildings, etc. In short, whichever side exploits the mountain/single JJ synergy is usually the winner.

I think its more of a mapping issue than a JJ issue. Big mountain in the middle, surprise! players find unexpected way to get to the top on it. I have no feelings on the JJ issue but sniper spots really ought to be hotfixed out.

Edit: why not hard cap hight by weight? That way a spider could still get up the mountain but larger mechs wont be able to.

Edited by Burke IV, 08 October 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[shellashock]

Kaijin, on 08 October 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

The only ECM mech with jumpjets and arm-mounted weapons is the Spider, which at most is going to have 1 ER PPC to be plinking away with. Because up/down torso movement is so limited, it takes arm mounts to bring weapons to bear from high places. Now a premade team of a Catapult and an ECM Spider could be dangerous.

I hopped up to the top of a peak on Crimson training grounds in a Cat C4 with 4 LRM10s and could bring my LRM pods to bear on every target within range.

I am not against this tactic, as it adds something to an otherwise monotonous grind. But as previously stated, I agree with you about requiring more than one JJ to pull it off.

Eh, the spider can pull off two er ppcs if they have no armour and only one jj.
SDR-5D
As for the current JJ state, I am pretty indifferent. I think that the thrust should be going in the direction you are moving, but that is as far as I will go into the debate. I have next to no knowledge about canon use of JJ and I am not interested in expanding my knowledge about it just for one issue that I personally don't have that much of a problem with. Might be worth making one JJ barely have the height boost to be able to clear a small ledge to avoid the current exploitation though. Also like the idea of certain sniper areas becoming OOB zones if they provide a significant advantage that they enemy cannot counter.

Edited by shellashock, 08 October 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Kibble]

If someone on the opposing team wants to waste 2-5 mins jumping up a hill instead of helping their team fight mine I am all for that! Once less mech to worry about....especially a highlander

[Kaijin]

Have just completed a conquest drop on Crimson in which I hopped to the top of a high peak and rained down the death for a brief period. It wasn't long before the opposition figured out where I was, and they had enough arm-mounted AC2s, ER PPCs, and GRs to reduce me to near scrap in a hurry, so I say keep the high places open to mech travel. An assault up there with a GR would present an even larger target.

[BlackBeltJones]

Does this allow a mech to move to locations the movement restrictions prevented? Yes
Does it matter that the video example is 2 minutes of time wasted? No
Does this demonstrate the idea that an single JJ equipped mech could possibly get into locations it is not intended to? Yes
The principle here should be that a single JJ can move any mech a disproportionate amount, and that is not a good thing - now the degree to which this is a problem (at least regarding the example video) is minor but no matter how small the degree the principle does not change.

[Wip3ou7]

Again, think outside the box. This isnt about Crimson Straight or getting to high places. Like I said, for example; you can easily get an assault over any wall in Canyon Network in seconds with a single jumpjet now, where they previously could not.

ANYWAY....

I just had the luck of dropping a pug with a PGI developer in which I was able to demonstrate this Jumpjet exploit and he verified that this was not intended to be an ability of the JJs. In fact, his exact words were "Good find. Thanks for pointing this out."

Case closed.

Edited by Wip3ou7, 08 October 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[Sephlock]

BlackBeltJones, on 08 October 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Does this allow a mech to move to locations the movement restrictions prevented? Yes
Does it matter that the video example is 2 minutes of time wasted? No
Does this demonstrate the idea that an single JJ equipped mech could possibly get into locations it is not intended to? Yes
The principle here should be that a single JJ can move any mech a disproportionate amount, and that is not a good thing - now the degree to which this is a problem (at least regarding the example video) is minor but no matter how small the degree the principle does not change.

I agree with you in principle but on the other hand i really don't like the idea of maps turning into hot wheels tracks.

I am still salty about them taking out the ability to make risky (you were exposed as hell going up there, and once you opened fire EVERYONE knew where you were) but incredibly fun jumps to hide in treetops in World at War .

[Doc Andrews]

Magnakanus, on 08 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Well I guess in such cases LRMs might be useful again.

See that's what I told my peop's, but they're not willing to accept the meta-meta game yet.

Kibble, on 08 October 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

If someone on the opposing team wants to waste 2-5 mins jumping up a hill instead of helping their team fight mine I am all for that! Once less mech to worry about....especially a highlander

That would be fine, but it doesn't take that long, and on the two big maps where it really matters, the huge hill lets you react to a push on either side.

[Bad Andy]

I don't really think this is a big problem though as slow big mechs with few JJ's still climb much slower than the opposite. So what if you can get to the top of a crystal in tourmaline with 1 JJ in a victor if it takes you 40 seconds and it takes a spider 5?

Also just because you can climb tall surfaces in a big mech with 1 JJ doesn't mean you can easily get down. A light with max jj's can probably jump off the top of aforementioned crystals at high speed and land far away in safe cover with little to no fall damage. Your example victor is going to get about 10 yards then plummet like a rock and take significant leg damage, possibly landing in front of the enemy host.

[Magna Canus]

Bad Andy, on 09 October 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Also just because you can climb tall surfaces in a big mech with 1 JJ doesn't mean you can easily get down. A light with max jj's can probably jump off the top of aforementioned crystals at high speed and land far away in safe cover with little to no fall damage. Your example victor is going to get about 10 yards then plummet like a rock and take significant leg damage, possibly landing in front of the enemy host.

Well to be fair here with 1 JJ I would just jump off of the crystal and begin firing my JJ half way down to avoid leg damage.
We had some fun with a Highlander recently who was sitting on top of one of the crystals with his PPCs sniping. Our Jenner face hugged him so he could not back up into cover while we fragged him with ACs and missiles. The smoking ruins of snipers on high gives me a nice tingly feeling.

[Matthew Craig]

Sorry for not posting sooner, we agree this is not intended behavior and it will most likely be modified there was internal discussion and it wasn't felt urgent enough for a hot fix but it will be addressed.

[-Muta-]

It looks so nice from up there....

But my question is... How can you be useful to your team from up there? Unlike tourmaline you have no advantage whatsoever in Crimson Strat because that peak is way too far from where fights usually are.

Edited by Mutaroc, 09 October 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Monky]

Matthew Craig, on 09 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Sorry for not posting sooner, we agree this is not intended behavior and it will most likely be modified there was internal discussion and it wasn't felt urgent enough for a hot fix but it will be addressed.

I recommend having a 1 second or half second delay for the forward impulse to kick in. Should be workable and resolve the climbing issue.

Edited by Monky, 09 October 2013 - 09:12 AM.