144 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 09 October 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

I think this must depend on your ELO or something. I only PUG and for the past few days i've been working up Commando's and on average my matches have 4-6 lights/team. One game today we even had 8 on my team, and i think i've been the only light once.

And still you won't post any screenshots of these matches with 8-12 lights in them.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

And still you won't post any screenshots of these matches with 8-12 lights in them.

Why should i have to? Because you (and others) seem to think i have some kind of "nerf lights" agenda even though i play lights?
Even if i spent the time doing it no doubt i'd get replies like "Photoshop" or i "picked only the rare matches with a high number of lights".

[Vodrin Thales]

Alistair Winter, on 08 October 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Do you ever miss that feeling of dread when you see the most deadly battlemechs in the BT universe? Like that feeling when you're playing Doom 2 and you run into a Cyberdemon and all you can think is "Ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod, don't panic, don't panic, don't panic! Fear is the mindkiller!"

Play more 12 mans. There are several teams that will put the fear of god back in you with their assault mech gunnery. Certain pilots in an Atlas are almost instant death for a light or medium pilot, and the highlanders and victors can be even worse because they will flat out one shot you.

Wolfways, on 09 October 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Why should i have to? Because you (and others) seem to think i have some kind of "nerf lights" agenda even though i play lights?
Even if i spent the time doing it no doubt i'd get replies like "Photoshop" or i "picked only the rare matches with a high number of lights".

You need to understand because many of us are not seeing the same thing. In my pug drops more than 4 lights are rare, and 1-2 are common. We are just wondering why you are seeing so many more light mechs.

[oldradagast]

There are few things as magnificent in the game as a well-played assault that is able to spread damage while still destroying everything in its path. I still respect the Atlas - and any assault mech - but fear has to be earned these days. An Atlas standing isolated, tossing LRM's, is a target, not a threat. But one that's hammering out streams of AC rounds while sweeping you with lasers and missiles is still scary.

[oldradagast]

AC, on 09 October 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

I wish that there was a ranking system that would unlock heavier chasis for purchase as you progressed. This would eliminate the noob+atlas combo that is a common scenario, plus it would create a large sense of accomplishment as you unlock each new tier of mech. It would also give the grind a purpose.

I have to disagree with this. Lights are the hardest chassis to play well and the most unforgiving of errors. Starting players in a light mech without other choices would make certain they didn't keep playing after being alpha-struck into oblivion a few times. Also, older players like me like the reflexes to really do well in light mechs. Anything over about 100 kph is a chaotic mess for me, so mediums are my "fast" mechs.

Tonnage limits would reduce the number of assaults, and proper tutorials and more trial mechs would encourage new players to do something other than buy an Atlas and stand in a corner, sniping or tossing LRM's with it.

[Odanan]

FupDup, on 08 October 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

A big part of it is because there's just so many of them everywhere. Assaults here are practically standard infantry around here in MWO.

Amazing signature, FupDup!

[Odanan]

Alistair Winter, on 08 October 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

But I still want to bump into an Atlas on the battlefield and just gasp "MY GOD!"

That's because I'm not playing anymore.

Alistair Winter, on 08 October 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

TL;DR - Blah, blah, nostalgia. Games were so much better when I was young. Since Wolfenstein, FPS games just aren't what they used to be.

After the FPS games started to make billions in the consoles, the gender was destroyed.

Wolfenstein 3D, Doom 1 & 2, Duke Nuken 3D, Quake, Half Life 1 & 2, and Call of Duty (the first) and Portal 1 & 2 were the best FPS games ever.

EDIT: forgot some great multiplayer FPS games, like Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 and Battlefield (1942, Vietnam and 2).

Edited by Odanan, 09 October 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[NRP]

DaZur, on 09 October 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

If everyone can own the biggest gun for a nickle and a gum-wrapper... and run it with top-tier accoutrements with absolute impunity and callousness... what the point of running anything else?

I just don't see this though when solo PUGing. I see a pretty diverse mix of mechs/classes. If anything, I don't see enough Assaults (on weeknights - weekends seem to have more). What I do see is a buttload of Orion LRM boats and a buttload of lights (mostly Jenners and Spiders). The ubiquitous light packs (especially the troll MG spider) is what motivated me to build a Streaktaro, which is turning out to be a pretty solid Medium mech. Just about every time I run an Assault, I'm the only one on my team.

Anyway I find the whole tone of this thread troubling. Some people seem to be suggesting that newbs shouldn't be allowed to pilot Assaults until they are somehow deemed "worthy", and furthermore that mediocre pilots be discouraged from driving "upper echelon" mechs through either an arduous skill grind or a draconian economic tax.

To me, it all smacks of thinly veiled elitism.

[HammerSwarm]

focuspark, on 08 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Atlas is just a really big mech. This is a multiplayer first-person-shooter, not a novel. Mechs are only (or should be) as scary as their pilots are skillful; and there's no way to know a player's skill until they've killed you.

Yes/No it's like the final game boss in Mech Commander 2 is an Atlas I believe and it's large and scary. It lays waste to your mechs and it has superior fire power. Due to a variety of factors the atlas enjoys little of that fear in this game.

One of which is ghost heat. Would I be more scared of an atlas if I knew they could have 4-6 heavy energy weapons, as many missiles as hard points?

Chassis need to be balance but because there is no BV and mechs are only being matched on pilot skill via ELO there is no other way to look at balancing them.

An atlas could be twice to 3 times as good as a hunchback if there was a battle value score to balance them.

[oldradagast]

NRP, on 09 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

I just don't see this though when solo PUGing. I see a pretty diverse mix of mechs/classes. If anything, I don't see enough Assaults (on weeknights - weekends seem to have more). What I do see is a buttload of Orion LRM boats and a buttload of lights (mostly Jenners and Spiders). The ubiquitous light packs (especially the troll MG spider) is what motivated me to build a Streaktaro, which is turning out to be a pretty solid Medium mech. Just about every time I run an Assault, I'm the only one on my team.

Anyway I find the whole tone of this thread troubling. Some people seem to be suggesting that newbs shouldn't be allowed to pilot Assaults until they are somehow deemed "worthy", and furthermore that mediocre pilots be discouraged from driving "upper echelon" mechs through either an arduous skill grind or a draconian economic tax.

To me, it all smacks of thinly veiled elitism.

Agreed. People should be able to pilot the mechs they want to play. If the game overly rewards certain mech classes or chassis, that's the fault of the game and forcing people to play sub-optimal mechs is not going to fix that problem or make those lesser mechs more fun. It will, however, drive people away from the game.

That being said, I don't feel there's any "best" mech right now. Assaults are still great, though not as overwhelmingly common in matches as they were months ago, and some chassis are still rather poor, but there's pretty good diversity in most matches from what I've seen. 12-man's are different, no doubt, but that's also a different world where people don't pick mechs based on fun as much as on power.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 09 October 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Why should i have to? Because you (and others) seem to think i have some kind of "nerf lights" agenda even though i play lights?

No, it's because your claim seems fantastic - I'm lucky if there's one other light in the match besides me, and all the 'mech diversity threads we have seen over the last year put lights at around 10-15% of the 'mechs in a match; a far cry from the 35-50% you claim to be average.

Assaults and heavies tend to be around 30% (assaults) to 40%+ (heavies) in those surveys.

Edited by stjobe, 09 October 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

TexAss, on 08 October 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I do get this feeling sometimes, but this is because of:

1. I dont pilot lights
2. I pilot mostly meds or heavies
3. I mostly (99%) tend to brawl things out
4. While I do have Assaults, my heaviest is a not-elited Stalker, so I don't have Atlai

And because of all this, I do get that feeling sometimes.
The only mech I'm confident with I can take an Atlas 1:1 is my Vic with JJs. His agility with his firepower is really strong.

It's just that with the mechs I pilot an Atlas is a hard nut to crack because of the massive firepower and armor.


With that said....man I CAN'T WAIT FOR TONNAGE LIMITS IN PUGS! Just too many of them walking around.

While 4 man and 8 man are going to have a weight limit, as I can't remember if its been implemented, I don't think we'll see weight limits on pug teams, until the population gets larger, I'm waiting two minutes and up, for matches at times, and weight limits could very well cause, can't can't find match over and over if alot of people happen to want to play assaults, limits won't force people to play heavies mediums and lights, what it will do is make people play some other game where they can play what they want when they want to.

When the active population is large enough it could be safely added, and as we don't know the active pop, we can only guess, until then making people wait longer, people allready complain alot about the ready button, it could have a negative effect on the game

[IllCaesar]

Yeah, I'm not afraid of the Atlas. The only time I've been killed by one was when I was already running in critical condition, or when I was completely abandoned by my teammates (like what happened last match).

I get afraid when I see somebody pilot a Highlander, or Victor, or an AWS-9M, because the majority of the time, they at least have an idea of what they're doing, which seems to be more than what most Atlas pilots are like. Most Atlas pilots don't know their role.

Hey,@everyAtlasonmyteamonTerraThermaever, I'm supposed to be hiding behind you and your 100+ armour-plated CT, you're not supposed to be hiding me in my Blackjack that weights less than half of your mech. I have 450 rounds of AC2 ammo, and I''ll be glad to dispense it at the enemy once I'm sure I won't get hit by a forty point alpha from across the way.

The majority of Atlas pilots, in my experience, have no balls at all. No, not that "they're playing a strategy of self-preservation for later in the match", they just have no balls. I mean, come on, you're the toughest mech in the game, and you're afraid of one Jenner and a Hunchback when you have four teammates behind you, really?

Edited by MarsAtlas, 09 October 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[Escef]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

No, it's because your claim seems fantastic - I'm lucky if there's one other light in the match besides me, and all the 'mech diversity threads we have seen over the last year put lights at around 10-15% of the 'mechs in a match; a far cry from the 35-50% you claim to be average.

Assaults and heavies tend to be around 30% (assaults) to 40%+ (heavies) in those surveys.

Honestly, it really depends on the drop. I've seen drops where half the team was lights, I've seen drops where the lightest mechs were Jagers and 'pults. Do I have screen shots to back this up? No, of course not. Who screen caps something like that?

[CDLord HHGD]

When they introduce the drop weight restrictions, Atlas' should be more rare (as taking an Atlas might also mean taking a Locust or Commando).....

[DaZur]

NRP, on 09 October 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

To me, it all smacks of thinly veiled elitism.

Not at all...

I would never subscribe to limiting access. I don't want anyone dictating what mech I run any more than I'd wish it upon someone else.

That said, "part of the reason" we see a higher percentage of Assaults on the battlefield is the lack of repercussions...

Absolutely... buy that Atlas... stuff it with top-tier equipment... but don't drive it like you stole it.

Which is what we see routinely... A race to the top-tier equipment, completely disregarding the cost-to-benefit advantage mediums have in spades because there is no difference in the consequences of piloting a medium versus an Assault save the up-front cost.

If their was some sort of incentification to piloting mediums over assaults, in particular cost of ownership, folks would be less likely to make that leap to assaults and mediums would become the workhorse battlemechs and the assaults would be seen / used as the apex battlemechs as intended.

It's not heavy-handed elitistism... It's quality control.

For the record... I pilot a heavily or a medium dependant upon the role I choose for the evening. My FAtlas only comes out when I'm grinding....

Edited by DaZur, 09 October 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[focuspark]

HammerSwarm, on 09 October 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Yes/No it's like the final game boss in Mech Commander 2 is an Atlas I believe and it's large and scary. It lays waste to your mechs and it has superior fire power. Due to a variety of factors the atlas enjoys little of that fear in this game.

One of which is ghost heat. Would I be more scared of an atlas if I knew they could have 4-6 heavy energy weapons, as many missiles as hard points?

Chassis need to be balance but because there is no BV and mechs are only being matched on pilot skill via ELO there is no other way to look at balancing them.

An atlas could be twice to 3 times as good as a hunchback if there was a battle value score to balance them.

Yeah... but MWO is a multi-player, competitive game. MechCommander was a single player experience. Don't look to MWO for the same type of game play as you found in MechCommander.

[verybad]

There never was that feeling except in the TRO fluff for the TT. The Atlas is a non optimal 100 tonner whose main strength is it's armor, it's weaponry is suboptimal and the hardpoints keep it that way in the game.

I think you're imagining a thing that never was. In the TT, an Awesome is a lot scarier than an Atlas in most cases.

Edited by verybad, 09 October 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[HammerSwarm]

focuspark, on 09 October 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Yeah... but MWO is a multi-player, competitive game. MechCommander was a single player experience. Don't look to MWO for the same type of game play as you found in MechCommander.

Yes/no That mission in mech commander you came upon an atlas with injured and depleted mechs. That oh snap an atlas was because you were already wounded. Yes the atlas was bigger, and badder, but it was also because you were so ill-equipped to fight it. Also the relative scarcity of atlases in that game gave you some, can I do this I have never done this butterflies.

We can replicate some of all of that, if tonnage limits were in atlases would be less popular, with tactic atlases could be the last line of defense, etc.

Also ghost heat sucks the fun out of some OP assault builds that were foreboding. Run up on a 6 LPL boars head no thank you, Run up on an overheat machine? sure why not?

[IllCaesar]

cdlord, on 09 October 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

When they introduce the drop weight restrictions, Atlas' should be more rare (as taking an Atlas might also mean taking a Locust or Commando).....

I doubt it. Imagine you have a 4v4 match with a 250 ton weight limit. Which option sounds better, two Atlas' and two Commandos, or one Atlas, one Jagermech, one Centurion, and a Jenner? Two Atlas', a Locust, and a Spider or one Atlas, two Centurions and a Hunchback? I know which side I'd place my bets on.

Medium mechs don't exist because they're such an amazing class - they exist because they're economical. Sometimes you can't field twelve Atlas'. Well, realistically speaking. There would be limiting factors, such as money. Now money isn't a problem for MWO, since you're not paying for expenses. However, limiting factors will still make you begin to look at a mech and make a cost/benefit chart, or in this case, weight/value. The Centurion is outclassed by the Atlas in just about every way, but is the Atlas so good you would drop an entire additional teammate for it? You'd probably be nuts to do that.

Again, which would you think would win - A Cataphract, two Jagers, and a Centurion, or two Commandos and two Atlas? My money is going to be on the most balanced team. Think of it like your favourite team sport - you can't reliably win even with the best offense if you have the worst defense.