117 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

Menetius, on 10 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

You mean like this?



Do you see why Studio Nue had a problem with the original design of FASA's Marauder?

Studio Nue never had a problem with FASA's design nor did they have a problem with the way TCI did the design in the first place. FASA used TCI's key art from their scale model kits. It was Harmony Gold that had a problem with the design and claimed they owned the copyrights when they didn't.

[Blue Footed Booby]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 October 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Studio Nue never had a problem with FASA's design nor did they have a problem with the way TCI did the design in the first place. FASA used TCI's key art from their scale model kits. It was Harmony Gold that had a problem with the design and claimed they owned the copyrights when they didn't.

This is a matter of some debate. I've also seen folks say that both companies had licenses to the design, but FASA got it via a channel the original rights holder didn't actually have authority to use. The wiki page about all this seems different every time I re-read it. It's bizarrely hard to find any actual official word, like translated court documents. It's a lot like trying to figure out if Varg Vikernes was actually convicted of arson, or just murder.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 11 October 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Farix]

Basic breakdown.

Studio Nue in conjunction with Big West created the Macross television series and subcontracted the animation production to Tatsunoko Production. Harmony Gold comes along and licensed the animation from Tatsunoko Production while FASA licensed the images of the mechs from Studio Nue/Big West. A dispute occurred between Tatsunoko Production and Studio Nue/Big West over control of the IP and Studio Nue/Big West ends up winning. Meanwhile, Harmony Gold sues FASA over the images and the two settle out of court with FASA, unable to finance a legal battle, giving up on the images.

So the legal question come down to whether Harmony Gold license of Macross is still valid and if so whether it is an exclusive outside of Japan.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Blue Footed Booby, on 11 October 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

This is a matter of some debate. I've also seen folks say that both companies had licenses to the design, but FASA got it via a channel the original rights holder didn't actually have authority to use. The wiki page about all this seems different every time I re-read it. It's bizarrely hard to find any actual official word, like translated court documents. It's a lot like trying to figure out if Varg Vikernes was actually convicted of arson, or just murder.

If Studio Nue had a problem with FASA's design then why did they do the art for the Japanese edition of Battletech, which includes the Marauder?

http://www.gearsonli...ttletech/mecha/

TCI licensed the designs from Studio Nue with a stipulation that they couldn't name what show(s) the mechs came from and created their own art. FASA entered into a shared license with TCI and used TCI's art for the Unseen. Due to the nature of shared licenses this put FASA on equal footing with TCI in regards to their relation to Studio Nue/Big West i.e. FASA is an original license holder.

In regards to Harmony Gold, if you read the filing they did against Hasbro recently, you will see that they claim that they own the art and the designs to the mechs from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeda. The problem is that in 2002 and 2006, the Japanese courts ruled that Studio Nue/Big West owns the designs which voids that part of the Harmony Gold license from Tatsunoko as Tatsunoko doesn't have the authority to license to something they do not have.This was upheld in a US court case where Big West took Harmony Gold to court in 2002 to file an injunction against HG blocking all things Macross into the US. Big West won that case, so HG is fully blocked from creating derivatives of the Southern Cross and Macross designs, in addition to stopping the blocking on imports from Japan to all things Macross.

http://www.animenews...macross-lawsuit

This is why when Robotech: Shadow Chronicles was done it doesn't have any of the Macross/Southern Cross characters and mechs. HG lacks the ability to create derivative works of those designs. It can, however, create derivatives of the Mospeda designs since Tatsunoko owns Mospeda wholly.

[LauLiao]

Don't you love how EVERY Battletech fan was a lawyer on the case and has intimate inside knowledge?

[James The Fox Dixon]

LauLiao, on 11 October 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Don't you love how EVERY Battletech fan was a lawyer on the case and has intimate inside knowledge?

Don't you love how people that don't know all the facts like to troll threads like this? Especially since the people that do know are trying to pass along the facts regarding the Unseen.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 11 October 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Menetius]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 October 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Studio Nue never had a problem with FASA's design nor did they have a problem with the way TCI did the design in the first place. FASA used TCI's key art from their scale model kits. It was Harmony Gold that had a problem with the design and claimed they owned the copyrights when they didn't.

Then why did Nue seek legal action against TCI? Or have I been misinformed?

Also, TCI's design was taken from Macross under the false pretense that they had previously acquired cooperative rights to the design, when in reality, TCI was never in a legal position to do so in the first place.

... or have I been misinformed again? I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly curious as to the reason behind all this piffle.

On a side-note, I'm probably the only one in the entirety of the BT fanbase that never liked the marauder's unseen design in the first place.

Edited by Menetius, 11 October 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Firenze]

Im so sorry guys but the Reseen marauder is head and shoulder a better design than the original. It has much more bulk and menace than the original, and looks like a hunter. The original looks too alien honestly.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Menetius, on 11 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Then why did Nue seek legal action against TCI? Or have I been misinformed?

Also, TCI's design was taken from Macross under the false pretense that they had previously acquired cooperative rights to the design, when in reality, TCI was never in a legal position to do so in the first place.

... or have I been misinformed again? I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly curious as to the reason behind all this piffle.

On a side-note, I'm probably the only one in the entirety of the BT fanbase that never liked the marauder's unseen design in the first place.

Studio Nue never had a legal action against TCI. TCI's license was for the art, that would be redone to appeal to western audiences, but would never state where the art or the model kit originated from which series. By the time the FASA v Playmates and HG v FASA happened TCI was out of business due to the rising costs of the kits and the gap in the exchange rates shrinking between the USD and the Yen.

[Menetius]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 October 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Studio Nue never had a legal action against TCI. TCI's license was for the art, that would be redone to appeal to western audiences, but would never state where the art or the model kit originated from which series. By the time the FASA v Playmates and HG v FASA happened TCI was out of business due to the rising costs of the kits and the gap in the exchange rates shrinking between the USD and the Yen.

So wait... TCI never possessed the full IP rights to the Robotech Zentraedi Officer Pod?

Edited by Menetius, 11 October 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Menetius, on 11 October 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

So wait... TCI never possessed the full IP rights to the Robotech Zentraedi Officer Pod?

TCI (Twentieth Century Imports) possessed the full rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross Glaug Officer's Pod, but they couldn't state which series the mech came from. Robotech did not exist yet. There is also noticeable differences between the Glaug and the Marauder.

Glaug



Marauder



The Marauder has several differences starting with the cockpit design and the inclusion of a weapon below the glass. The Gauss Rifle is different in the details on the barrel and on the mount. The weapon arms are similar in shape, but have different details. The same is said of the main body and legs. Even the markings are different.

At the time, Japanimation wasn't in the US in a substantial numbers, so TCI (among other US companies) decided to westernize the mechs. This is why the Marauder art is more detailed and has the look of a blueprint compared to the art for the Glaug.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 11 October 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[LauLiao]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 October 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Don't you love how people that don't know all the facts like to troll threads like this? Especially since the people that do know are trying to pass along the facts regarding the Unseen.

Not sure how "factual" all the "facts" in this thread are since they all contradict each other.

[James The Fox Dixon]

LauLiao, on 11 October 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Not sure how "factual" all the "facts" in this thread are since they all contradict each other.

Funny, but my statements, that you quoted, are very factual and can be backed up.

[LauLiao]

I didn't quote any of your statements of "fact" and don't you think you're being a little defensive considering you don't even know if I was talking about YOU at all?

Edited by LauLiao, 11 October 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[S0lid]

How about that Redesign ?



Found them a while ago on http://www.deviantar...letech+marauder

[James The Fox Dixon]

S0lid I really like that redesign. It's hands down better than the reseen version.

[Menetius]

James The Fox Dixon, on 11 October 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

TCI (Twentieth Century Imports) possessed the full rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross Glaug Officer's Pod, but they couldn't state which series the mech came from. Robotech did not exist yet. There is also noticeable differences between the Glaug and the Marauder.

Glaug

[Snip.]

Marauder

[Snip.]

The Marauder has several differences starting with the cockpit design and the inclusion of a weapon below the glass. The Gauss Rifle is different in the details on the barrel and on the mount. The weapon arms are similar in shape, but have different details. The same is said of the main body and legs. Even the markings are different.

At the time, Japanimation wasn't in the US in a substantial numbers, so TCI (among other US companies) decided to westernize the mechs. This is why the Marauder art is more detailed and has the look of a blueprint compared to the art for the Glaug.

For the record, those changes are minimalistically cosmetic and claiming that the Marauder's design is 'different' from the Glaug's in a court of law would probably result in an ensuing discussion over the definition of 'Intellectual Property', the end result being a denial that the two models are fundamentally different.

Also, when I said Robotech, I was referring to the Macross franchise as a whole. My apologies for using the wrong terminology.

Edited by Menetius, 11 October 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[ssm]

Menetius, on 11 October 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

(...)

On a side-note, I'm probably the only one in the entirety of the BT fanbase that never liked the marauder's unseen design in the first place.

No, you aren't. For the good of the future of this IP, designs like unseen Marauder should be staked, decapitated and buried. Forever.

Edited by ssm, 11 October 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Menetius, on 11 October 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

For the record, those changes are minimalistically cosmetic and claiming that the Marauder's design is 'different' from the Glaug's in a court of law would probably result in an ensuing discussion over the definition of 'Intellectual Property', the end result being a denial that the two models are fundamentally different.

Also, when I said Robotech, I was referring to the Macross franchise as a whole. My apologies for using the wrong terminology.

The shape is similar, but the elements that make up the design are different. Copyright law only needs to have a 75% difference to pass the muster and all of the elements inside of the basic shape take it beyond the 75% requirement. Every shade line, detail, etc... count as a percentage of the overall design. For the record, the Marauder design is substantially different from the original Glaug design.

HG doesn't have a claim to the entire Macross franchise and they attempted it until Big West smacked them with the lawsuit hammer that forced HG to abandon their claim to all things Macross. Robotech isn't even worthy of being in the same sentence as Macross. There is nothing stopping PGI or Catalyst from going to Studio Nue/Big West and license Veritech fighters like the VF-11 or the VF-19 to replace the Wasp, Stinger, and Phoenix Hawk. Those designs all came from Macross 7.

[Chiasson Brinker]

I have that Matchbox Glaug. Neat toy, but it's droopy as hell. The arms don't stay level and the whole thing leans forward on the hips and ankles from the weight of the arms. The Marauder in its unseen form is a nice historical marker for Battletech, but now that the timeline for the tabletop game has been updated to the 3140's, the odds of any pre-3025 era Marauders still being in service with line units is slim to none. As to having a Marauder in this game? I'd vote for Anthony Scroggins' (Shimmering Sword) redesign as it most closely resembles the shape of the 3R Marauder.

Edited by Aidan Kell, 11 October 2013 - 07:02 PM.