117 replies to this topic

[ssm]

GalaxyBluestar, on 04 November 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

(...) are we keeping BT athetics? have you seen the centurion? the stalker's legs are around the wrong way and there's hardly a smooth curve in sight, poor catapult. for style and entertainment there's been tweeks but the character of the originals still remain because they're centered at a market demanding more realisim for tanks but still a demand for old favorites which brings me to.

Centurion in MWO looks way better than any TRO artwork I've ever seen (why? see below). As for Stalker - even guys at Mektek reverted it's joints. It's obvious that whoever has drawn original artwork for Stalker didn't know a squat about mechanics and animation, because (let's be frank) Stalker on knee-joint legs would behave like giant wobbling male reproductive organ.

Quote

you're right because it was unofficially added in at mektek. fans building stuff for fans and lo and behold they knew very well about the reseen designs but guess what they chose... the popular design. these guys shut down once IGP/PGI got the IP proberbly because they'd end up being responcible to HG for the original marauders and such being let loose. LL too were going to introduce a marauder... and again it wasn't the reseen artwork because everyone knows and wants the original.

You're missing point there. It's true - guys at Mektek are fans, and so were people for whom they included Marauder model in theirs MW4 mod. But you completely misuse words like "popular" and "everyone", because you're really talking only about hardcores (like you). And even if they are main target audience for fan-mad mods, they ain't anymore for modern BT games (like MWO) and even TT game.

For entire Battletech franchise to thrive, we need new players - and nowadays artwork from 80's just doesn't cut it. Potential new players (and a lot of people like stompy robots) want their walking tanks to look like walking tanks, not stylised Japanese 80's Alien battlepods.

Quote

as i started MWO doesn't adhear to BT so for the sake of stylised tank entertainment to appeal to more than just the hardcores, which pgi have confirmed they're doing, they'll proberbly want something different for the game. the marauder is a great opotunity for that.

There is simple reason why MWO went for "stylised tank entertaiment" - Mechs are functionally walking tanks, and their esthetics should reflect this. I know that nostalgic hardcores love the looks of original unseen Marauder, but it doesn't look like military vehicle (as it should), but like something taken straight out of 30 year old Japanes Anime about gigantic aliens invaiding earth in stompy robots.

Why? Because <wink wink, nudge nudge> Marauder is taken straight out of 30 year old Japanes Anime about gigantic aliens invaiding earth in stompy robots.

[Alaskan Nobody]

ssm, on 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Mechs are functionally walking tanks, and their esthetics should reflect this.

I would bet (part of) the problem people have with the new design is fear that it is going to far in that direction.
Lets face it: Hawken's stuff looks like walking tanks - and the only design that stood out in my mind was the walking television

[GalaxyBluestar]

Shar Wolf, on 04 November 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

I would bet (part of) the problem people have with the new design is fear that it is going to far in that direction.
Lets face it: Hawken's stuff looks like walking tanks - and the only design that stood out in my mind was the walking television

well i can only speak for myself but i'm not worried about updates, the centurion was almost a redesign but it's cool and still resembles what it was. all the unseen need is a modern update, all the othermechs have had it and didn't loose their character even the new phoenix mechs! imagine what the unseen could get, what a revival! it's just HG stopping it from happening because they're the kind of ***** who are greedy for more cash through the court house rather than at the negotiating table. other compoanies made a buck being wise about licensing their property designs to others, everyone wins. HG are ***** who can't see a good buisness deal if it was used to hammer their face in.

ssm, on 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Centurion in MWO looks way better than any TRO artwork I've ever seen (why? see below). As for Stalker - even guys at Mektek reverted it's joints. It's obvious that whoever has drawn original artwork for Stalker didn't know a squat about mechanics and animation, because (let's be frank) Stalker on knee-joint legs would behave like giant wobbling male reproductive organ.

totally agree with you. i mention the other mechs to say that originals can be updated and look cool without losing their niche apperance. sorry if i came across in a different way. i'm all for updated designs if originals are in-appropriate but there's really no need to suddenly jump on the reseen bandwagon, they were just stockgaps for mismanagement as far as models/ artsupply goes.

still i love the retake on the mech designs here and i'm sure with a little more creativity the unseens can be born anew.

ssm, on 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

You're missing point there. It's true - guys at Mektek are fans, and so were people for whom they included Marauder model in theirs MW4 mod. But you completely misuse words like "popular" and "everyone", because you're really talking only about hardcores (like you). And even if they are main target audience for fan-mad mods, they ain't anymore for modern BT games (like MWO) and even TT game.

true it was included by hardcores for hardcores, you're very right that it was aimed at an established niche group and not a marketplace demographic you humble me.

but what makes you think a radical overhall of the unseen wouldn't be popular? we both agree at how cool the new centurion is comparred to the old and the updates like that of the stalker's legs are a good thing. can't you imagine what really talented creative minds such as that of Flying Debris could do to spruce up the original warhammer, rifleman and marauder? i'm sure they'd be just as popular and would look far better than the reseen artworks.

ssm, on 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

For entire Battletech franchise to thrive, we need new players - and nowadays artwork from 80's just doesn't cut it. Potential new players (and a lot of people like stompy robots) want their walking tanks to look like walking tanks, not stylised Japanese 80's Alien battlepods.

gundams and transformers say hi we're still popular with generations of kids!

hell dragon ball and sailormoon from late eightes early nineties are coming back to inspire a new audience. there's so many old and unchanged material from decades ago creating new fans. i'm shocked at how many people in my agegroup {20's} are into the beatles! seriously age doesn't account for good designs, because they're like art and everyone appreciates different stuff.

there's plenty who love shakespear and not moder addaptions so be carefull when saying retro doesn't cut it. hell some ancient stuff is still making huge cash. hello kitty hasn't changed pikachu is still fav for a poke mascot. just look at entertainment today established stuff > than new stuff. it's how MWO came about, it's well established enough to warrent it coming back. so should the familliar designs that came with it.

ssm, on 04 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

There is simple reason why MWO went for "stylised tank entertaiment" - Mechs are functionally walking tanks, and their esthetics should reflect this. I know that nostalgic hardcores love the looks of original unseen Marauder, but it doesn't look like military vehicle (as it should), but like something taken straight out of 30 year old Japanes Anime about gigantic aliens invaiding earth in stompy robots.

Why? Because <wink wink, nudge nudge> Marauder is taken straight out of 30 year old Japanes Anime about gigantic aliens invaiding earth in stompy robots.

i agree with the first statements of course the old designs should be updated no question but they don't need to be thrown out onto the scrape heap and have something else shoved in it's place. that's like changing the teenage mutant ninja turtles into ninja cats or ponies because that will attract new bloods seeing how they're more popular. of course this doesn't happen, you play to the strengths of a record winner, an establishment, the mini the VW bug the fiat 500 all cashed in on that premise. PGI is already doing that with the PP.

yes 30 year old designs are so dead and buried. that's why the list goes on for the amount of stuff made originally in the 80's still popular today! iron maiden's still a blast they touried only a year or so ago still attracting new fans jeremy clarkson's being doing the same stuff for over 20 years and people young and old still enjoy topgear shenanigans.

new blood is more likely to be attracted than older people, they checked stuff out the first time round and won't return, new people aren't influenced by anything yet so they take things with a fresh mind, just give them the same updates as this whole game is based on and they'll be loving that thing which was oh so embarresingly a 30 year old anime robot.

and lastly. i'm tired of typing all this stuff, i've written more than my fair share of opinions, that's all this has really been... opinions. because there's one thing we can all agree on in it's entirety. HG SUCK ****!

night y'all

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 04 November 2013 - 10:55 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I am going to repost this here, as it was a reply on G+ to one of the MAD Redesign contestants who was getting concerned over a lack of MW:O Forum feedback:

Quite honestly, even if you were a graphical amadeus, the fact that you are attempting something that does not look like a macross pod is probably why you will not receive too many votes. It is so alien to the preconceived notion of what a MAD should look like, even though, by the books, yours fits it perfectly.

Artist's interpretation is why these two mechs are the same:

http://www.solaris7..../Bushwacker.jpg
http://www.striderss.../bushwacker.jpg

Yet for some stupid reason, people refuse to give the same leeway of artistic interpretation for the MAD and WHM lines.

What I find extra confusing is that these are the same people who were ok with the Hellhound redesign:

http://www.sarna.net...a/Hellhound.jpg
http://fc02.devianta...echa_Master.jpg

This one seems outright the most incorrect redesign because it no longer even vaguely looks like the Wolverine even though fluff wise it is, basically, the WVR IIC. Yet people have no problem with that? What the ever-living hell?


Basically, people are too caught up on preconceived notions of what it something "must" look like, when, in reality, all the art we have are artistic interpretations of mechs. Yes, the Officer Pod was a model before it was used by FASA, as was the Rifleman, Warhammer, and a couple others, but all the same in the context of the Battletech universe (and, honestly, for the HEALTH of the universe) we need to be open to alternative interpretations of the same mechs. Similarities among the designs for the same chassis should remain, I agree with that. It needs to be recognizably a certain mech.

However, there is zero reason to whine about a mech having some deviations from the original art. If you can recognize that it is a MAD, it does not matter if it shares some similarities to a Shadowcat (in the ART only, not the models!). Hell, I am sure you could draw artistic 1:1s between it and other mechs, as well, as all original BT art seems to draw on itself for inspiration. Probably to visually keep everything within the same setting with a similar feel.

That said, I also throw my hat in the pile that says "a PP TRO MAD is better than no MAD at all." Just because it is not the suetastic design (whether or not the design in question is open to a lawsuit) is not enough reason to dig in your heels and scream "no." As long as the essense of the design, the foreboding, hunched over, lanky daddy-long-legs of a mech is brought back, it does not matter if it is a carbon copy of the original or not.

To use your Mustang example, even that one was modernized in appearance when they went for a retro look. A retro look that was, ironically, made to cash in on people who grew up with the original look. The version before that? Actually a pretty damned popular seller (and worth quite a bit for street racing purposes, believe it or not!). Even sticking to the original mustang to new one comparison, the new one is notably sleeker. It has a beefier front end. Much more rounded. In addition it does not have certain things the original had, such as the door intakes, the bumper design is all wrong, and the lower front grill is totally changed.

Expect no less from a modernization of the MAD.

Edit:

Now as for my personal opinion of the PP TRO MAD designs? I think they more accurately reflect the rules of the mech. I do not think they are ugly. I just think they did not quite capture the essence or feel of the original. The original seems almost sloppy while the new seems very clean cut, if that makes any sense. SS version of it, for example, seems like a great modernization of the design and is visually distinctive enough from the original that it would be sue-proof.

http://memberfiles.f...0Oconnor2-1.png

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 November 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

What I find extra confusing is that these are the same people who were ok with the Hellhound redesign:

http://www.sarna.net...a/Hellhound.jpg
http://fc02.devianta...echa_Master.jpg

This one seems outright the most incorrect redesign because it no longer even vaguely looks like the Wolverine even though fluff wise it is, basically, the WVR IIC. Yet people have no problem with that? What the ever-living hell?

To the best of my knowledge the MW4: Mercs Hellhound is both apocryphal (as all video games are considered in the BT franchise if they do not directly contradict canon) and completely unrelated to the Conjurer in design. Its MW4: Mercs black market fluff implied a completely separate and original design by stating the Hellhound was a new (early 3060's) Jade Falcon design. The chassis structure is more than just cosmetically different. It sharing the original IS alternate name with the Conjurer seems misleading as that naming convention was dropped for all Clan 'Mechs and Omnimechs post 3055. On top of the matter of MW4: Mercs not being all too picky about who had access to Clan tech when it came to campaign enemies or any of the MW4 games for that matter. All the games had Nova Cats everywhere when only Clan Nova Cat themselves had significant access to the design. Clan Wolf-in-Exile got a few through trade with a smattering scattered about from losses during Operation: Bulldog to the Smoke Jaguars.

I have to agree with you otherwise Devalis. All the kicking and screaming that the new MADs are not MADs is both counter productive to the mutual desired goal of keeping the MAD in the game and hypocritical when other designs get some multiple interpretations on the exact same load out that are just peachy. Your Bushwacker example was perfect, since the original 3058 cover art of the Bushwacker was very different from the art for it found inside the TRO. I like the PP designs being done in a way that fits the more established BT looks instead of the hodgepodge of BattleDroids and early editions.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 November 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[Alcor]

Sadistic Savior, on 09 October 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

It is just awful...it completely takes away the "alien-ness" of the Marauder. The marauder is supposed to look spindly. That is the point of the design and why everyone likes it. The one in your link is way too beefy.


Same here, but it will get neutered in the process. The same thing already happened to the Battlemaster and the Locust. This is what the real thing needs to look like:



It'd be more accurate in-game too, since the scale is more accurate and the cockpit hitbox would not be so easy to target.

Adridos, on 09 October 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

As far as Marauder redesign goes. It's fine... for a new mech. Not for a Marauder.

[KalebFenoir]

Karl Streiger, on 10 October 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

Well at least the reseen makes some sense considering the cockpit sizes....ever wonder how a pilot could fit into that thiny cockpit of the MAD?

The MAD series was supposed to have an encased cockpit. No front window; just a bunch of cams to give the pilot a view of the battlefield. I remember my friend telling me that, through the length of the BT book series, they gave the MAD something like 5 different ways to get to the cockpit; from below, above, the front, and oddly enough, through the back of the mech (like a rear hatch). Depended on who was making the thing apparently. *shrugs* that's heresay though.

The head is still there, for game purposes, but there's no big glass windows. Personally, I like that idea. Kinda makes me think of the Stalker's tiny little head turret nub. Huge body, almost unnoticable head.

I know I'd be happy with a Marauder of some kind on the battlefield. They could even hodgepodge it together; Cataphract legs (which were Marauder to begin with anyway), Catapult torso, Shadowhawk shoulder cannon for the AC, and dupe Cataphract arms (the ones with no hands). Make it move like a Catapult, and there ya go.

That's just me though.

[Lightdragon]

Menetius, on 09 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

I wasn't aware that the Marauder, Marauder II, and Marauder IIC were redesigned in the Phoenix TRO.

I like the newer design.

Posted this here instead of the "Mechs & Loadouts" subforum, since there's no news of it being in the game.

that redesign... looks...like..garbage

[Mech42Ace]

Adridos, on 09 October 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

TCI? Who's that?

Besides, Battletech never ripped off the artwork. They (FASA) bought it fair 'n square. Heck, Japanese courts have decided they should have won the legal battle about them. But FASA was broke at the time and HG abused that fact.

As far as Marauder redesign goes. It's fine... for a new mech. Not for a Marauder.

Exactly it looks good if it were a new mech but the original marauder was just awesome looking.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

GalaxyBluestar, on 02 November 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

i could easily blow this up into an argument which nobody wants so i'll just make my point clear and leave.

who love's the a-team? i know i do so let's whach some ateam.



oh god no.... no mr t equals no ateam

same goes for the marauder do you really want one of these...




oh sorry wrong mech although this shadowcat looks a lot like




yep even FD cannot save the reseen which is a poor mutation of a completly different mech.

everyone knows what a battletech-mechwarrior marauder looks like even newspapers report the design as a battletech mech:

The exam, which was sat by almost 6000 students, featured a doctored version of the artwork, in which a large robot - rather like BattleTech Marauder - appeared in the background of the artwork depicting events during the Russian Revolution.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2jYLMSenW
[/left]

that's because most people grew up with this:



or this:



along with MR T which is why i don't just enjoy the original marauder where ever the art came from, i enjoy it because it's unique it's not like anything else which is good. so if PGI takes on the reseen then MWO will be as popular and lucrative as the ateam movie. because nostalgia and money says MR T is best just like the original Marauder is best. i'd much rather play this game without the MAD than to see shadowcat wannabe running around with the name it doesn't deserve.

as mentioned earlier, it's not a bad mech {shadowcats are cool} it's just not a marauder.

why not this design

S0lid, on 11 October 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

How about that Redesign ?



Found them a while ago on http://www.deviantar...letech+marauder

you guys need to be trying for this marauder... beautiful more so than the first ones

[kosmos1214]

im with the guy abuve me here its fine to redisine it its another to do its 1/2 asses im not hateing the redisine its fine but its just not a marauder where as this one from divent art looks like the marauder

[dwwolf]

Phoenix redesign fails on one significant part ...its not sleek frontally and that is a hallmark of the marauder design.

[Kavoh]

All this talk about how if the MAD is going to be redesigned at all it should just be left out because it "is not the same mech" even with only small changes... yet here we are with a Timber Wolf that only resembles the iconic mech I have known for so long that hasn't changed for decades, because of a tube like torso (even then its more of a sharp point now) being placed on a completely different and alien body only resembling the original because of the direction the limbs bend... Yea I am a bit salty yes, but it just goes to show that even if they said they would base it off the original Battle Pod design and not the pheonix resculpt, it would look ridiculously different after they got through with it anyway.

[Tezcatli]

So here's what we do. We all go out and buy lotto tickets. If one of us wins. We take HG to court. If the lawyers don't think we can win. We drag it out so that HG begins to lose money and force them to allow MWO to use the designs. Maybe even give a little profit to compensate them for the use. :3

[LordKnightFandragon]

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

The fans have not been kind to that TRO.

The marauder redesign was one of the harder hit with the mighty HateHammer.

I will warn you though, starting a discussion about it is frequently a good way to start a flame war.

yeah, I can say I think the Feenix redesign of it is hideous, that gun doesnt belong mounted on the side likethat.....looks more like a messed up Hollander....

[Gryphorim]

Can we get a poll made up? Prefer Unseen, Reseen, or Shimmering Sword's reseen.

[Lyoto Machida]

Harmony Gold is sorta on my way home from work...I should just drive over there randomly one day and see if I can talk to someone there about this matter lol.

Personally, I'd love to see Alex's re-interpretation of the Unseen version of the Marauder but I'd settle for Shimmering Sword's version as well. Just anything to get that mech in the game (and the Warhammer).

GalaxyBluestar, on 02 November 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

i could easily blow this up into an argument which nobody wants so i'll just make my point clear and leave.

who love's the a-team? i know i do so let's whach some ateam.



oh god no.... no mr t equals no ateam

Never saw the new A-Team movie but while Rampage wasn't Mr. T, he was no slouch in real life either...







He didn't have anything for Lyoto the Dragon though...

[Silversynch]

This thread may be a little dead (And controversial) but...

I vote we take that design from the Deviantart guy and move the gun to the left torso like PP TRO. Add a few more differences to ward off lawyers... And done. One original Marauder, ready for PWN'ng the enemy. You know the minmaxies will take every chance for a ultra or gauss in that slot.

[kosmos1214]

Silversynch, on 28 November 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

This thread may be a little dead (And controversial) but...

I vote we take that design from the Deviantart guy and move the gun to the left torso like PP TRO. Add a few more differences to ward off lawyers... And done. One original Marauder, ready for PWN'ng the enemy. You know the minmaxies will take every chance for a ultra or gauss in that slot.

yah we need this mech if we can find a way to get it in and looking deasent

[Uncle Totty]

Farix, on 10 October 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

I was about ready to say that it looks very similar to the Marader done by Shimering Sword. Then I learned that it was also created by Shimering Sword as well.

I want THIS I game.