22 replies to this topic

[Stinkeye]

There is something I just don't get about these two mechs. I run the same load out as the Champion Spider in my Cicada 3C but it is 10 tons heavier. My build has an extra one ton of ammo but that leaves 9 tons of extra weight for an increase in armor of only 30 points over the spider (that is 0.8 tons of armor).

I don't know can anyone square that circle? Add to all of this the amount of punishment you can take in a Spider and really many chassis are completely pointless .

My rant is due to my last game where I was in my Cicada 2A and was up against a champion spider, which just stood in front of me. So I shot it with three alphas of 6 Mlasers into its chest and it was still yellow. Another Champ spider showed up and I cheesed it and ran for back up. I then chased this spider around cooking it in the back as it ran in straight lines...well after enough shots for to cook it about five times I was blown to hell. So I just watched the match. A dragon nailed it with a gauss in the chest and I saw 60 LRMs dropped on it, still up and kicking. Almost makes me want to buy some spiders.

[Grimlox]

If you can't beat 'em you might as well join 'em.

[operator0]

The Spider hit box is bugged. The devs have admitted it and the community has proved it in another thread. The only reliable way to kill a Spider is a Streaktaro. The devs have mentioned that light mech hit boxes have gone under a review and the next patch will have the results of that review in it. I don't know if that means they fixed it, or they put a band aid on it. If you buy a Spider right now because of it's invincibility shield, you may be disappointed next Tuesday with your purchase.

Edited by operator0, 09 October 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Stinkeye]

But what about the same load outs and tonnage difference?

[IllCaesar]

I noticed that too with my Cicada, although I don't run an XL in it (yet). One could argue the case for the Cicada, but until the Spider's hitboxes are fixed, its tough to justify anything other than maybe the CDA-3M and X-5

[MonkeyCheese]

More tons for heatsinks if the weapon loadouts are the same.

[Mehlan]

operator0, on 09 October 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

The Spider hit box is bugged. The devs have admitted it and the community has proved it in another thread. The only reliable way to kill a Spider is a Streaktaro. The devs have mentioned that light mech hit boxes have gone under a review and the next patch will have the results of that review in it. I don't know if that means they fixed it, or they put a band aid on it. If you buy a Spider right now because of it's invincibility shield, you may be disappointed next Tuesday with your purchase.

Please link this hitbox thread you refer to.

Edited by Mehlan, 09 October 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Stinkeye]

MonkeyCheese, on 09 October 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

More tons for heatsinks if the weapon loadouts are the same.

Nope same amount of heat sinks. The Spider requires a 255xl to go to speed cap while a Cicada requires a 340XL to pack the same loadout. This also shows that the engine sizes are all borked as well.

[Straylight]

Stinkeye, on 09 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

The Spider requires a 255xl to go to speed cap while a Cicada requires a 340XL to pack the same loadout.

The Cicada requires a larger engine than the Spider to reach any given top speed, and engine mass scaling is non-linear: unlike most of a battlemech's required systems, the mass of an engine required to reach a target speed scales exponentially as the mass of the battlemech increases.

This results in a break-even point of top speed for any given tonnage of 'mech, above which increasing the engine rating produces diminishing returns for overall combat effectiveness as the mass of the engine starts to cut into the 'mech's capability to bear a useful payload into the fight.

Assuming XL engines, the Spider hits its break-even point at 159 kph, while the Cicada does so at 127 kph. Thanks to engine rating caps in MWO, this means that a Spider running its maximum-possible 255XL engine is still below the threshold, while a Cicada reaches its threshold with a 315XL.

Conclusion: your Cicada is actually too fast for its tonnage. Reducing its engine rating will increase its overall performance. Be aware that the realities of the hardpoint system skew the theoretical data somewhat, though: The CDA-3C has a terrible layout.

[Asyres]

Straylight, on 09 October 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

The Cicada requires a larger engine than the Spider to reach any given top speed, and engine mass scaling is non-linear: unlike most of a battlemech's required systems, the mass of an engine required to reach a target speed scales exponentially as the mass of the battlemech increases.

This results in a break-even point of top speed for any given tonnage of 'mech, above which increasing the engine rating produces diminishing returns for overall combat effectiveness as the mass of the engine starts to cut into the 'mech's capability to bear a useful payload into the fight.

Assuming XL engines, the Spider hits its break-even point at 159 kph, while the Cicada does so at 127 kph. Thanks to engine rating caps in MWO, this means that a Spider running its maximum-possible 255XL engine is still below the threshold, while a Cicada reaches its threshold with a 315XL.

Conclusion: your Cicada is actually too fast for its tonnage. Reducing its engine rating will increase its overall performance. Be aware that the realities of the hardpoint system skew the theoretical data somewhat, though: The CDA-3C has a terrible layout.

The cicada seems to play best in that 300-320 range. Something like a 340XL 6ML 2A is basically a big, flightless Jenner.

And yeah, it doesn't help that the 3C has horrible hardpoints.

[Straylight]

Asyres, on 09 October 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

The cicada seems to play best in that 300-320 range.

The math agrees with you. So do I; I run a 320XL in my 3M, and I don't feel inadequately armed with 12.5 tons of payload nor too slow to be useful at 130kph.

Quote

Something like a 340XL 6ML 2A is basically a big, flightless Jenner.

This is a good example of those diminishing returns in action; given roughly equal top speeds and the same weapon load, the Jenner is smaller, more agile, jump capable, and 5 tons lighter.

Cicadas are scout 'mechs, yes, but I don't think Cicada pilots should be trying to outrun Jenners and Spiders in a drag race. What they should be doing instead is building toward a "force recon" approach; scout out enemy positions, report back, and then attack the position to pin enemy assets in place long enough for reinforcements to arrive. They also make excellent Light hunters themselves, able to not only bring enough firepower to bear to scare enemy Lights off, but fast enough to harass them all the way back to their own lines.

[MonkeyCheese]

Stinkeye, on 09 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Nope same amount of heat sinks. The Spider requires a 255xl to go to speed cap while a Cicada requires a 340XL to pack the same loadout. This also shows that the engine sizes are all borked as well.

Straylight, on 09 October 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

The Cicada requires a larger engine than the Spider to reach any given top speed, and engine mass scaling is non-linear: unlike most of a battlemech's required systems, the mass of an engine required to reach a target speed scales exponentially as the mass of the battlemech increases.

This results in a break-even point of top speed for any given tonnage of 'mech, above which increasing the engine rating produces diminishing returns for overall combat effectiveness as the mass of the engine starts to cut into the 'mech's capability to bear a useful payload into the fight.

Assuming XL engines, the Spider hits its break-even point at 159 kph, while the Cicada does so at 127 kph. Thanks to engine rating caps in MWO, this means that a Spider running its maximum-possible 255XL engine is still below the threshold, while a Cicada reaches its threshold with a 315XL.

Conclusion: your Cicada is actually too fast for its tonnage. Reducing its engine rating will increase its overall performance. Be aware that the realities of the hardpoint system skew the theoretical data somewhat, though: The CDA-3C has a terrible layout.

Exactly go slightly slower in your cicada and pack better weapons or be more heat efficient, remember I never mentioned speed in my earlier post, my cicadas have always performed well at 130ish kph, although until real tonnage matchmaking and different speed caps come the fast cicada has its uses.

Also stay far away from the 3c.

[BUDFORCE]

Grimlox, on 09 October 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

If you can't beat 'em you might as well join 'em.

Meh, I have given it some serious thought.

Just get that light mech with its in build lagshield, and large laser and zip around the map with my "godmode" causign anoyance and havoc accross the battlefield.

It would probably be quite fun.

But, call me many things but I am not a hypocryte, they need to sort those spiders out.

[627]

3C is not that bad and you can put an ERPPC on it.

My 4 Cicada engines are 315, 320, 330 and 340 any you feel that difference in every step (ok maybe 315 to 320 not so much but it's there) especially 315 to 340. Not only top speed but agility and movement.

Besides that, Cicadas are not very good at light hunting, maybe without the X-5. Mostly because of your turn rates and overall size you're in a disadvantage.

On the other hand, i had the most fun with the 3C with a ERPPC and 4 MGs (after MG buff but before PPC nerf, though). Just don't solo a spider, especially if there are more of it and you're alone. 1on1 is hard enough, 2 lights and you're dead they don't even need wonky spider hitboxes, they'll just outmaneuver you.

Edited by 627, 09 October 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[Alex Warden]

Stinkeye, on 09 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Nope same amount of heat sinks. The Spider requires a 255xl to go to speed cap while a Cicada requires a 340XL to pack the same loadout. This also shows that the engine sizes are all borked as well.

you see that from the wrong perspective... the ciacada is SPECIALLY designed to be a MEDIUM mech that runs faster than most LIGHT mechs... thats why it has a HUGE engine and only light weaponry... other 40ton mechs are much slower but better armed...

i only run my Cda 3M with an xl300 and maxed armor + LPLS and MLASers, and exclusively use it with our light groups as tank/supporter for them. but basically the cicada has no real purpose

Edited by Alex Warden, 10 October 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Shadey99]

I have played a large portion of games in my Cicadas (3M, 2A, X-5). I've also run hundreds of Cicada builds. Oh & I've mastered Spiders as well... HSR issues aside... The CDA-3C & SDR-5K are extremely alike, the only difference being where the energy hard point is. Stock these two mechs would be equally fast and the the 3C would slightly outgun the Spider, but the Spider would be more agile (JJs).

The fact that light mech engine caps are 1.4xStock engine and the largest engine a light could ever mount using that formula is a 345XL in a Jenner (to reach 159.7 kph). Theoretically a Cicada could mount a 425 XL if it existed (and wouldn't be bigger than the Cicada), so instead it would max at a 400 XL that is nearly as big as it is. The size of the Cicada unfortunately works against it beyond stock. Which is sad for what in TT is one of the fastest mechs of it's time... And even the base for a IS omnimech design..

Btw slow(er) Cicadas can be useful, just not in their standard role. The 3M makes a good Gauss, LB-10X, AC10, AC5, UAC5, or AC2 platform using stealth from the ECM to get into position. The X-5 makes a surprisingly effective LRM mech. Both 3M and 3C can even do a Ac20 build, though standard engines in 40 ton mechs is painful...

[Zakie Chan]

Every time I blow a 20 on one with my wang it makes up for every frustration they cause.


Nothing is sweeter than 5 component destructions + kill for one derping 1337 spider pilot

[627]

Shadey99, on 10 October 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

I have played a large portion of games in my Cicadas (3M, 2A, X-5). I've also run hundreds of Cicada builds. Oh & I've mastered Spiders as well... HSR issues aside... The CDA-3C & SDR-5K are extremely alike, the only difference being where the energy hard point is. Stock these two mechs would be equally fast and the the 3C would slightly outgun the Spider, but the Spider would be more agile (JJs).

The fact that light mech engine caps are 1.4xStock engine and the largest engine a light could ever mount using that formula is a 345XL in a Jenner (to reach 159.7 kph). Theoretically a Cicada could mount a 425 XL if it existed (and wouldn't be bigger than the Cicada), so instead it would max at a 400 XL that is nearly as big as it is. The size of the Cicada unfortunately works against it beyond stock. Which is sad for what in TT is one of the fastest mechs of it's time... And even the base for a IS omnimech design..

Btw slow(er) Cicadas can be useful, just not in their standard role. The 3M makes a good Gauss, LB-10X, AC10, AC5, UAC5, or AC2 platform using stealth from the ECM to get into position. The X-5 makes a surprisingly effective LRM mech. Both 3M and 3C can even do a Ac20 build, though standard engines in 40 ton mechs is painful...

Lol, faster Cicada?

As much as i want MOAR speed, i don't see how you'll fit bigger engines up to an XL400. Hell, gettin' 4ML and 2 Streaks in that X-5 with a XL340 was hard enough with some serious armor shaving... but man that would be fun to run with the locusts at double the weight...

[Shadey99]

627, on 10 October 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

As much as i want MOAR speed, i don't see how you'll fit bigger engines up to an XL400. Hell, gettin' 4ML and 2 Streaks in that X-5 with a XL340 was hard enough with some serious armor shaving... but man that would be fun to run with the locusts at double the weight...

The Cicada will never get quite that fast a 400XL only takes a Cicada to 162 kph (178.2 kph) and leaves you with 2.5 or 4.5 tons left for armor and weapons... More reasonable is the 380XL for a speed of 153.9 kph (169.29 kph), would let you max armor, and then you would have ~3 tons left for some guns.

However the Cicada always suffers form the law of diminishing returns when it comes to engines. The Spider with no speed cap could take a 340 XL and reach 202 kph with speed tweak (With like .5 tons for weapons) and the Jenner could take a 345XL for 175.7 kph with speed tweak. This means the Cicada could never catch a Spider, but could devote itself to having no guns and slightly outpace a Jenner.

[AC]

Asyres, on 09 October 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

The cicada seems to play best in that 300-320 range. Something like a 340XL 6ML 2A is basically a big, flightless Jenner.

And yeah, it doesn't help that the 3C has horrible hardpoints.

The 3C doesn't have horrible hard points, it's just that PGI decided to give the spider excessive hard points in addition to jump jets so the spider is the default mech of choice. If they had gone with 2-3 ballistics points, then the Cicada would still have had a purpose.