128 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

It all depends on your ELO bracket. I can assure you wholeheartedly that in my bracket, you don't see much AC boating. You DO see lots of high-alpha damage, but you don't see it being done strictly with ACs. You also see lots of players smart enough to exploit the advantages of their weapons, whatever they might be, over the weapons the enemy is using to overcome them.

isn't elo a team balancing tool? hense a few highs and a few lows form a team vs and all avg team and a stomp ensues? so it doesn't really matter where your own elo is because you'll see all types of them from match to match. {pugging anyways}

[Rhent]

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

It all depends on your ELO bracket. I can assure you wholeheartedly that in my bracket, you don't see much AC boating. You DO see lots of high-alpha damage, but you don't see it being done strictly with ACs. You also see lots of players smart enough to exploit the advantages of their weapons, whatever they might be, over the weapons the enemy is using to overcome them.

Maybe your reading skills aren't in your ELO bracket, but thanks for stating that. It really helps your credibility.

I want you to think for a second, just sit down and think. Why has there not been a single mech over 70 tons that can dual Gauss or dual AC/20? Why would Piranha do that?

I do quite well with a dual UAC/5 dual LL build for instance. You don't base a build strictly off AC's short of going for a dual Gauss build. That being said, those mechs that add in AC's are going to do noticably higher DPS and final damage than those mechs that don't. Why? Piranha made heat the final limiter of damage in the game.

[Dymlos2003]

Rhent, on 09 October 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Maybe your reading skills aren't in your ELO bracket, but thanks for stating that. It really helps your credibility.

I want you to think for a second, just sit down and think. Why has there not been a single mech over 70 tons that can dual Gauss or dual AC/20? Why would Piranha do that?

I do quite well with a dual UAC/5 dual LL build for instance. You don't base a build strictly off AC's short of going for a dual Gauss build. That being said, those mechs that add in AC's are going to do noticably higher DPS and final damage than those mechs that don't. Why? Piranha made heat the final limiter of damage in the game.

why.does it matter?

Edited by dymlos2003, 09 October 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[Rhent]

dymlos2003, on 09 October 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

why.does it matter?

It matters because heat as the only limiter only works in TT. It does not work in a game where skill is involved.

[Dymlos2003]

Rhent, on 09 October 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

It matters because heat as the only limiter only works in TT. It does not work in a game where skill is involved.

so be skillful, don't blame your lack of skill on ACs

[Mister Blastman]

GalaxyBluestar, on 09 October 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

isn't elo a team balancing tool? hense a few highs and a few lows form a team vs and all avg team and a stomp ensues? so it doesn't really matter where your own elo is because you'll see all types of them from match to match. {pugging anyways}

Not in my bracket. I routinely see 5+ high to super-high ELO players on both teams, almost every game. It truly is a completely different playing experience when this happens.

[Rhent]

dymlos2003, on 09 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

so be skillful, don't blame your lack of skill on ACs

AC's aren't the problem and shouldn't be nerfed, I've stated that numerous times in this post. The issue is with heat being the limiter. Piranha painted themselves into a corner. At the rate they are going with various weapons nerfs, AC's are going to be next and they will be issuing pillows to everyone because they didn't do hard points &/or conversion as part of the weapon limiters in the game.

And dude, nice smarmy post. If you do that in the real world, you have zero social skills.

[Mister Blastman]

Rhent, on 09 October 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Maybe your reading skills aren't in your ELO bracket, but thanks for stating that. It really helps your credibility.

I think my reading skill are just fine. I believe your perspective is the problem.

I'm not worried about mechs over 70 tons dual-wielding gauss or AC/20s because they are special-purpose builds with large weaknesses. A dual-wielding assault with AC/20s would be at a distinct disadvantage in the current PPC+AC/laser metagame due to inability to close the distance and get in range. If they managed to do this, they might live for a little while but ultimately they'd be taken down quickly by everyone grouped together.

A dual-gauss wielding assault would be neat (Fafnir anyone?) but... it has huge weaknesses in both DPS up close (remember, they can't run because they are too slow) and liability with the gauss explosion.

It is a non-issue.

He who can boat the most ACs does not guarantee a win or huge advantage. If this were the case, then all you would see at the highest ELO bracket would be Illyas, DDs and 4Xs running around with craptons of ballistics. You don't. Many times you see mechs with only one projectile weapon on it with energy weapons filling the rest of the slots and occasional missiles to take up spare tonnage.

There IS a problem with the heat system... it should be a 30 PT scale with 2.0 DHS dissipation and medium lasers should be dropped by 1 pt as well as smalls. Pulse lasers need a buff too.

But the current broken scale doesn't kill energy weapons at all in the right hands. It instead benefits front-loaded energy damage.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 09 October 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[Fuerchtegott]

I can't see any problem between those 2 Jägermeistermechs here. ;-)

JM6-S 11 DPS at 600m over 3 minutes

JM6-S good 4 DPS at 600m for nearly 20s

Seems fine to me.

[Rhent]

Fuerchtegott, on 09 October 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I can't see any problem between those 2 Jägermeistermechs here. ;-)

JM6-S 11 DPS at 600m over 3 minutes

JM6-S good 4 DPS at 600m for nearly 20s

Seems fine to me.

The problem is the developers will see the switch of players to AC's and eventually we'll get another misguided nerf (to AC's) and more players quitting the game.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not in my bracket. I routinely see 5+ high to super-high ELO players on both teams, almost every game. It truly is a completely different playing experience when this happens.

Alpha strike warrarior GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Is there a button I can reset my elo with?)

[Mister Blastman]

mwhighlander, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Alpha strike warrarior GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Is there a button I can reset my elo with?)

[FupDup]

mwhighlander, on 09 October 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Alpha strike warrarior GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Is there a button I can reset my elo with?)

Yes. It looks like this:

[Zaptruder]

The main reason that the weapons will never be properly balanced... is because these devs refuse to iterate small and quickly, preferring instead to change multiple variables at once with long waits between each tweak.

They also prefer to tweak system wide variables rather than easy to change numbers, that often require reworking code extensively.

As a result, they'll never be able to fully utilize the feedback of their playerbase, while leaving multiple month gaps where players wait for things to be done, while the playerbase exploits the path of least resistance.

With no respect for the quality of life of players having to put up with months of obvious imbalance because of this complete failure of design philosophy, players become discontent and eventually move on (like I did).

[GalaxyBluestar]

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not in my bracket. I routinely see 5+ high to super-high ELO players on both teams, almost every game. It truly is a completely different playing experience when this happens.

you mean like this?



it happens sometimes and i agree it's hands on deck when well coordinated players gang up because they can do it very well. i just be a pug scraping cbills.

Mister Blastman, on 09 October 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

But the current broken scale doesn't kill energy weapons at all in the right hands. It instead benefits front-loaded energy damage.

BTW i'm officially the man of 1000 assists in the laser boat these days ;P

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 October 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

May i suggest either higher heat counts with faster dissapation or lower heat counts with slower heat dissapation, as for ballistics the ammo count is far to high, on my hunchback 4g before i sold it i ran around with 3 medium lasers and 42 shots, i dont remember ever run out. With lasers you cant just spam them in a fight or you overheat and die, ballistics dont have that issue. since the new set up ive seen more jagermechs,blackjacks,Ilya and now the occasinal atlas with x2 AC/5 but its just getting ridiculous.

If anything add muzzle climb for alpha strikes and long periods of firing.

What exactly would "muzzle climb for alpha strikes" do? The mech in question would have "blown his load" already...who cares exactly where the barrels are pointing afterwards unless there's an AC2 or something in there with fast cooldown.

[Karl Streiger]

Fuerchtegott, on 09 October 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

JM6-S 11 DPS at 600m over 3 minutes

do you have acmé ammunition bins? as far as i can tell - your mech is empty after 56 sec....
and now this guy come to play:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a2efb52115ffd07
not that much burst damage - but well rounded.

That is the problem with theory crafting math and statistics - i clearly can find one ore multiple modells of math that will underline my statement - ignoring other facts.

The current heat system is far from optimum - but neighter hardpoint limitations nor any kind of nerf Autocannons or buff heat will change this.
We have multiple weapons, with multiple behaviors as well as we have multiple kinds of gamers in MWO. To make all happy is nearly impossible - the best way - and i think we are on a right path is to make 50% of the player base unhappy with autocannons but happy with PPCs and make the other 50% unhappy with PPCs but make them happy with Missiles....or something like that.


I really want to see a test - of using high dissipation - making high alphas still impossible but making stock Mechs like the AWS-8Q viable.
On the same ground there has to be a shortage of ammunition - based on the current "income-meta" dealing as much damage as possible in the shortest ammount of time is good - to be able to deal damage until the match is finished is not.
So considering the quad AC 5 build - with 56 secs of staying abilitys.

It will deal ~ 487,5 dmg with that build in a minute - even without beeing a good pilot and supporting the team - that is a accepatble outcome. Even if your Mech got shot in the next second.
You can simple hop in your next Jaeger or Illya or CTF-4X an do the same.

Currently challenges of MWO:

• income meta - has to change
  
• it has to be team or nothing
  
• a artificial shortage of ammunition
  
  • if so - no way to exploit it
    
  • if so - and it is a real shortage - more heat for energy weapons
• tests with other systems
  
  • all DHS deal the same dissipation (1.7 like they do when you have 20DHS)
    
  • lower heat cap (although currently its a kind of canon)
    
  • increase dissipation
    
  • smoother heat and damage values
    
  • multiple the heat of each weapon with 50% you increase the dissipation
    
    • ER-PPC goes 23 heat - dissipation per DHS is 0.34
      
    • AC 5 goes 2 heat
  • ignore the lore - a AC 2 don't have to deal 2 damage per shot

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 October 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Reducing heat capacity to 30 and increasing heat drain to match the increased weapon fire rates would indeed be a huge step away from the high alpha meta, and it would make the stock mechs a lot more useful, but that alone won't be enough. Implementing various penalties for going over a certain amount of heat would help as well, but may not be necessary. Either way the current ghost heat system should be replaced by something that isn't an unintuitive collection of "special rules" that don't even fix the problem they were intended for, and low capacity high cooling speed would be part of a solution to the alpha strike problem.

There is still the issue of convergence to deal with, and I believe the system for fixing that is already largely in place.
The way the game is now, all weapons are by default aligned parallel to each other and when the player aims for something the weapons will turn to face the target. As far as I can tell, this doesn't take any time and there are no restrictions placed on this system, making it very easy to fire all weapons on one spot.
In order to turn the convergence system we have into something that's reasonably balanced, weapons would need to be aligned much slower, ideally with the speed gradually being reduced to an eventual minimum as the weapon nears it's intended alignment. The maximum speed should be set high enough to go from aiming into infinity to aiming at a facehugger in 1-2 seconds, and the speed reduction should be set high enough that it will take several times longer, preferably with a total time of 5-10 seconds, to get an accurate alpha strike. This lets players fire snapshots that will likely hit the target while making it impossible for any player to fire a full alpha on one section without taking a lot of time to aim and risking being hit and possibly killed first. There should also be a cap on how far a weapon can turn, preferably dependent on the specific mech and hardpoint, this allows mechs to have more unique handling and prevents abuse of the system by disallowing accurate point blank alpha strikes, which would otherwise be possible. In the event that certain heat penalties are implemented, they could be applied to the system to make weapon convergence even slower or less accurate if needed.
I would go into movement penalties as well, but I think that would only cause more turtling stalemates, and I think we've seen enough of those.

[culverin]

Oh look.

Another thread where the player base are once again discussing how to fix the symptom when we already know the cause.

• Weapon convergence makes alphas hurt, a lot.
  No amount of weapon damage nerf will solve this.
  This game is taking mechs, weapons and damage numbers from tabletop balance.
  Weapons to striking a single location together is the exact opposite mechanic to that balance.
  It sure as heck not have have quad PPCs strike the single location at long range.
  
• Lack of heat scale means you can alpha with quad PPCs.
  Balancing heat/weapon and DPS/time does not solve this.

Ghost heat and weapon damage/heat/DPS balances are giving a bandaid a gaping wound.

[Khobai]

Quote

The primary intention of heat system tweaking isn't to balance convergence so much as it is to just let people use energy weapons at a much higher rate of fire than we can now

The devs themselves have said that the heat system is primarily intended to limit alphastriking. The only reason alphastriking needs to be limited is convergence. So the heat system does directly bandaid convergence, or at least a symptom of convergence.

Its one bandaid after another slapped on to limit the effectiveness of convergence. But convergence is still way overpowered. Increasing heat on one weapon just makes players move on to the next best weapon that lets them converge: so now its autocannons instead of ppc/gauss.

-heat system that runs three times hotter than battltech
-beam duration on lasers
-double armor
-jumpjet shake
-ghost heat
-increasing heat on weapons

Edited by Khobai, 10 October 2013 - 07:20 AM.