93 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

why is it all the time founders defending the current cbill earnings hmmmm, conspiracy perhaps. may i ask how much cbills have you saved up since starting also did you grind out your mechs or just purchase them, oh and another thing do you have any sort of booster/easy button such as premium or a hero mech?

C-bill earnings without premium are awful...
C-bill earnings with premium aren't good, they're just less awful. I feel like premium time payers should be getting 100% bonus. Heck they're basically guaranteed paying customers. Not to mention if you say "get premium time and avoid the grind" you're probably making more money any how when people start to get into it, buying camo's, paints, converting XP, getting hero mechs, etc. All because that damn grind isn't in your face, they're spending -more- money.

[Sephlock]

Primez, on 09 October 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

I just said something very similar to this in another thread but it feels it like it really fits well with what I quoted from you. "MWO has the potential to grow, this deal with or get out attitude needs to go."

So you're saying people with that attitude need to deal with it or get out ?

[MustrumRidcully]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

So founder and Veteran players help us new guys out you certainly have more push with the developers then we do.

Sorry, no, we don't really. We're all on this island...

Also, I'm a Founder, and I don't like the grind either. I started this game basically as a big whale and with all the wealth gains from the Founder Premium, min/maxing R&R and all that... and I spend most of it, and now that I am no longer willing to play whale, I realize that the grind has become pretty bad and there isn't much fun in working to new mechs.

[Bad Andy]

I don't know if most players are like me but I buy most of my mech with C bills, i own 38 mechs now. I spend MC mostly on Mech bays so less earning c bills slower equates to buying mech bays slower= I give PGI less money.

[Kardax]

Some people are forgetting its Free to Play with microtransactions and expect all the sweety things right here right now. Thats exclusive for players who spend money and generate INCOME for PGI.

Free gameplay requires more grind, which yields experience to proceed in mech trees anyway.

Edited by Kardax, 10 October 2013 - 12:59 AM.

[Stuii OCAU]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

why is it all the time founders defending the current cbill earnings hmmmm, conspiracy perhaps. may i ask how much cbills have you saved up since starting also did you grind out your mechs or just purchase them, oh and another thing do you have any sort of booster/easy button such as premium or a hero mech?

I think it's **** - stopped me being able to tweak mechs.
haven't played in 2-3 months now
if CW aint epic I'm out permanent

[Earl White]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

This is the part I dont understand, most of the veteran players have a large amount of mechs or cbills, yet a good number of them voice their opinion against a cbill increase, with the amount of players that dont use the forums, how many have left since their cadet bonus ended? you would think that the founder players of all people would support any move that would benefit the game they invested in before we had a shot at it..

A lot of founders or older players played this game before the famous c-bill nerf, and thus have giant banks of c-bills, they don't need to grind and so don't understand so well the plight of newer players.

Kardax, on 10 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Some people are forgetting its Free to Play with microtransactions and expect all the sweety things right here right now. Thats exclusive for players who spend money and generate INCOME for PGI.

Free gameplay requires more grind, which yields experience to proceed in mech trees anyway.

The only real microtransactions are mech bays, everything else is quite expensive compared to other f2p titles. While f2p titles generally require more grind, the progression speed differs wildly from game to game.

Edited by Earl White, 10 October 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[Ransack]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

So founder and Veteran players help us new guys out you certainly have more push with the developers then we do.

Nope. You are wrong there. They WANT you new guys. They stopped listening to us months ago and started focusing on the "New User Experience".

No, I do not like the lower earnings one bit.

[Primez]

Sephlock, on 09 October 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

So you're saying people with that attitude need to deal with it or get out ?

No I am saying they need to help provide solutions to fix the problem. Problem being how to make this game less grindy. If your unwilling to be helpful to advance fixing a problem they why are you in this thread? I beleive and alot of players suggested the solution that cbill earnings increase would fix that issue I agree with them. What solutions or ideas can you provide to fix the problem?

Kardax, on 10 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Some people are forgetting its Free to Play with microtransactions and expect all the sweety things right here right now. Thats exclusive for players who spend money and generate INCOME for PGI.

Free gameplay requires more grind, which yields experience to proceed in mech trees anyway.

Yea but the grind is way above other F2P games, in this game the grind to fun ratio is really far off. In league of legends it takes about 1 week to get a hero with grind. Once you purchase that hero you can be competitive with them. In MWO it takes about a week to get one mech, which isn't viable competitively when it comes to variants and XP trees, you need to purchase atleast 3 variants. This isn't even getting into the neccesary upgrades to be viable. So if you look at it from a competitive standpoint, 1 week grind for LOL=3 weeks grind for MWO.

Edited by Primez, 10 October 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Wilhelm Fraek, on 09 October 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Its a good thing my mouse only has one button i bet i could use a jager too. If there was another mechwarrior game for 50-60 I would but you see there are not a whole lot of options with big robots involved. There is a big difference between a game with content asking players to give some $ if they want more, compared to this where there is no content and they want money everytime they add to it. by the time CW comes around there is either going to be no one here but the white knights or PGI starts making some changes and starts keeping new players

"Nothing astonishes men so much as common sense and plain dealing"

Ok, first off you have a one button mouse? I thought those died off with Macs. You do know you can get cheap laser mice with two buttons, plus a clicky scroll wheel at Walmart right?

Next, try a thought experiment. Try looking at what you get for free with MWO. Four trial mechs that cost nothing, and change monthly. Any mechs you have access to you can play in Pugs, 4 mans, or 12 mans. Several maps with different terrain and environments.

Yet you choose to focus on what you can't have. That is a great way to wind up bitter and disappointed, and not just in MWO.

I think you are just here for the social aspect, IE "debating". Try getting on TS, and I think your perspective will change. FTR no need for a ridiculously expensive headset. I assume you have speakers, so you can buy a standalone mic very cheap. By cheap, I mean cheap. My wife is in grad school, my son is in private school and I work for the city govt, so I am not rich.

Primez, on 10 October 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

No I am saying they need to help provide solutions to fix the problem. Problem being how to make this game less grindy. If your unwilling to be helpful to advance fixing a problem they why are you in this thread? I beleive and alot of players suggested the solution that cbill earnings increase would fix that issue I agree with them. What solutions or ideas can you provide to fix the problem?


Yea but the grind is way above other F2P games, in this game the grind to fun ratio is really far off. In league of legends it takes about 1 week to get a hero with grind. Once you purchase that hero you can be competitive with them. In MWO it takes about a week to get one mech, which isn't viable competitively when it comes to variants and XP trees, you need to purchase atleast 3 variants. This isn't even getting into the neccesary upgrades to be viable. So if you look at it from a competitive standpoint, 1 week grind for LOL=3 weeks grind for MWO.

One week to get a hero huh? You mean a hero that someone else might choose to play with first and thus you can't use it?

Also, this isn't a game where your K/D ratio is what's important. Have you noticed the bonus XP/C-bills for winning by capping? So stop running with crappy pugs, get with a team that knows once you get 10 kills, finish capping so the whole group gets bonus XP/C-bills and worst case you gank the last two guys.

In a pug, I am lucky to get 30-50K in a match if we win. I've lost 4 mans and got that much. Get a good scout wolfpack going and 100K plus a fast win isn't out of the question.

Stop grinding and start playing. I mean damn, what's the problem? Have to get Basic on two mechs you don't want, big deal. No need to get Endo and DHS if you are just going to sell them. That's one reason you are broke.

Do you sell the mechs? Do you strip them first? If you don't want to keep it, then why upgrade it and waste all that money? It's a grind remember? Strip them so the next time you need some MLs to round out a mech, you have them and don't have to buy them. Have 5 Std 260 engines laying around? Sell 2-3 of them for some quick cash.

Or if you aren't having fun, go play something else till CW comes out. This entitlement attitude is something I don't get, you guys seem to think you deserve the game you want to play, and who cares if it makes the devs money or if anyone enjoys it. Who cares if the Founders who helped make this game possible get screwed in the process? (Note I am not one.)

Complaints are one thing, but whining is just pathetic.

[Sabazial]

There's no way you could be tired of the grind after just completing your cadet bonus and playing the game for 24 hours, move along folks nothing to see here.

[TearlessWyvern]

Ok WOW. This blew up quick. Now to make my 2nd appearance.

First off, I am new. This isn't just a new account. I've watched all of the tutorials and have been catching on really quickly (plus I LOVE mech games). I leaned about this, now two days ago, from my outfit's website (for those of you who are familiar I'm with ODAM).

As far as PS2 grind, you have to play as a team and you'll get certs quicker than you can spend them. When it's slow, yeah it's a grind, but that's rare. Only a few guns (mostly vehicle) from each category are 1000+. And as far as 100 cert items? I can get one every day or two depending on my in-game activity and play time.

Just from this, it does seem like "Founders" (whatever that means) are defending the C-bill rates. Let me clarify: The game, at least to me, is more than just the matches. It's buying your own mech, customizing it, and making it your own. It's the strategy of properly outfitting it, and not just the in-match strategy. Since PS2, it's been hard to play match-based games. It feels repetitive. Coupled with the unrealistic grind it's just flat out not fun. An open world would have been better, but the grind is still pretty up there. Plus the game is already match based so don't think I'm saying "make it open world" (save that for a new game ;D).

Again, I'm not asking for a "mech give-away". I know full well how these types of games work. But a grind this bad isn't going to make me spend $7+ for MC. I'm just going to leave. As I said, PS2 has less grind, and I was MORE than willing to spend money on it, despite not really needing to. For me, it's not just getting that item, it's supporting the company. If the company truly embraces the FTP spirit rather than use it as a lure (like SWTOR), I'm happy to support them. Otherwise, I say "see ya!"

Why does this grind coercing not work for FTP? Because I have no real ties. A subscription game forces one to grind because they've already paid for the subscription and don't want to waste it (this also causes the game addictions we hear about now and then). FTP allows us to come and go as we please (which is beautiful). And if the game isn't enjoyable, we do the latter.

Now maybe the current maps and game modes would get stale eventually, but I would be happy to deal with that for a while if I could just earn C-bills at a quicker rate. And, again, buying credits isn't just about getting the item for me. There's a principle too. FTP insinuates that the game can be enjoyable and allows the player to acquire most (but not all) items without spending a dime if they choose to do so. By maintaining such a huge grind, this option is revoked and the player is coerced into spending money. This in not truly FTP and borders on PTW. And I do not support a developer who does this. If you want to be FTP, you need to stick to that. If you want to be PTW, then you need to say that. PS2 has been a cash-cow for SOE, and no one really has to spend money to enjoy it. That means that all of that money comes from people who are either A. Impatient (not in a negative way but, yeah) or B. True supporters (I myself am both. I want to support them but I use those credits for big items. Maybe I'm just being smart?). And these supporters want to see the development continue and show appreciation to the company for providing a true (and awesome) FTP title.

Now I have no clue when this title was released, but from a similar post from May I know it's now brand new. And I'm shocked that this is still an issue. Again, if you take one thing away from this, let it be:

Throw us a bone and we'll throw one back.

Thanks again for listening.

[Almond Brown]

Myk, on 09 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Right, because playing in a trial mech is EXACTLY the same as a fully fit DDC.

I've yet to meet a founder I can respect.

You presume any Founder would give a **** about needing your respect... LOL

[Sandpit]

Otto Cannon, on 09 October 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

I don't like the grind either, but you won't catch me making another account so I can pretend to be a new player and complain about it.

You have proof of this where..........?

See? Things like this are just... I don't get it. You have absolutely no proof and just want to discredit someone. This response is no different than any troll or {Noble MechWarrior} post.

The c-bills do seem to discourage new players. I don't personally see the grind as that bad but it seems more and more that new players want instant gratification. We have arguments on these forums over having to spend 10 minutes in a match as opposed to 5.....

I personally think if they would simply add a "mech designer" where players could make theoretical builds and variants without spending anything it would help. Players would have a goal to work towards. They would know how much to earn and specifically what they were playing towards.

So for example:

A player jumps into the mechlab. They can select any mech, tinker with different loadouts and variants while looking over stats. They come up with a design they like and have a cost of what it will take to earn all of the components and such for that specific build. They then know what they're grinding for, have a goal, and get to tinker in the cool features of the mech lab without having to spend xxx amount of c-bills just to see what endo or dhs will do for their mech.

There should also be no need for a player to use any kind of 3rd party software to do this. It should be allowed in the game which keeps players IN the game. It keeps them logged in and immersed in the game. It allows them to experiment without cost. Now keep in mind they don't actually purchase any of the stuff so they don't actually have the mech but they at least have something to DO besides grind, come up with a goal, and have the fun of the mech lab at their disposal.

[Primez]

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Also, this isn't a game where your K/D ratio is what's important. Have you noticed the bonus XP/C-bills for winning by capping? So stop running with crappy pugs, get with a team that knows once you get 10 kills, finish capping so the whole group gets bonus XP/C-bills and worst case you gank the last two guys.

No one mentioned K/D ratio, please read the post that you quoted. If anything W/L is more important because that is more directly tied to your elo and also it affects how much cbills you get.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

In a pug, I am lucky to get 30-50K in a match if we win. I've lost 4 mans and got that much. Get a good scout wolfpack going and 100K plus a fast win isn't out of the question.

I average 90k-140k in pug matches if I win. You solution to winning is to group up with other players like you mentioned TS above. I'm sorry but forcing players to group to win more is not good game design. It should be designed for the individual thats why we have things like ELO.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Stop grinding and start playing. I mean damn, what's the problem? Have to get Basic on two mechs you don't want, big deal. No need to get Endo and DHS if you are just going to sell them. That's one reason you are broke.

Since winning is important, you need to remain viable and to be viable you need the necessary upgrades. If you look at STD compared to DHS there is a huge difference. The community as a whole agrees almost 90% of the time you need DHS.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Do you sell the mechs? Do you strip them first? If you don't want to keep it, then why upgrade it and waste all that money? It's a grind remember? Strip them so the next time you need some MLs to round out a mech, you have them and don't have to buy them. Have 5 Std 260 engines laying around? Sell 2-3 of them for some quick cash.

I do sell excess equipment, I don't sell mechs I end up getting mech bays. Less Cbill earnings = less mech I purchase = less mech bays = less MC. From my personal play it's hurting PGI more then helping them. Not to mention all the new players who just up and quit.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Or if you aren't having fun, go play something else till CW comes out.

Here you go again telling me to get out or deal with it. Thats not helping fix the problem of a dwindling playerbase, grind to fun ratio. If you could provide solutions or suggestions that would be great instead just being in the way to people who want to fix the game and make it thrive.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

This entitlement attitude is something I don't get, you guys seem to think you deserve the game you want to play, and who cares if it makes the devs money or if anyone enjoys it.

Did you play before 12v12 and the income nerf? Because all these new players are just asking for the same deal. They are not entitled they are just asking for the equal chance other players got. If anything the entitlements went to people who played before the income nerf. The reason why people care is because they want this game to succeed and not fail.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 October 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Complaints are one thing, but whining is just pathetic.

Whining about whining is pretty pathetic too.

Edited by Primez, 10 October 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Sandpit, on 10 October 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

You have proof of this where..........?
You have absolutely no proof and just want to discredit someone. This response is no different than any troll or {Noble MechWarrior} post.

I don't need proof to hold an opinion and comment, I'm not trying to convict someone in a court of law. Where's your proof that I'm wrong? See? Your response is just as bad as any troll according to your own logic.

Quite frankly, if you can't see from the way the OP was written that it's highly unlikely to be a new player you're not very perceptive. PGI have said that they only really listen to new players posting for the first time rather than regular forum users, which encourages people to make fake accounts just for a chance to be taken seriously. That's strong grounds to be at the very least suspicious of this type of post even if it was better written in a more convincing way.

Edited by Otto Cannon, 10 October 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[TearlessWyvern]

Otto Cannon, on 10 October 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I don't need proof to hold an opinion and comment, I'm not trying to convict someone in a court of law. Where's your proof that I'm wrong? See? Your response is just as bad as any troll according to your own logic.

Quite frankly, if you can't see from the way the OP was written that it's highly unlikely to be a new player you're not very perceptive. PGI have said that they only really listen to new players posting for the first time rather than regular forum users, which encourages people to make fake accounts just for a chance to be taken seriously. That's strong grounds to be at the very least suspicious of this type of post even if it was better written in a more convincing way.

I'm sorry but you are quite wrong in assuming I've played this before. And you know what happens when you "assume"? Now if the developers don't want feedback from new player and want their game to die a slow, sad death, then so be it. But I'm pretty sure that they want that feedback and that you are entirely wrong. I'm very disappointed to see so many seasoned members complaining and convicting instead of contributing. I would like to see a Dev come in and share their take on the issue.

Belphegore, on 10 October 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

There's no way you could be tired of the grind after just completing your cadet bonus and playing the game for 24 hours, move along folks nothing to see here.

I have the gift of foresight. From other, similar posts as well as seeing the rate for my self, I know I will become exhausted quickly and would rather spend that time doing something else.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Primez, on 10 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

No one mentioned K/D ratio, please read the post that you quoted. If anything W/L is more important because that is more directly tied to your elo and also it affects how much cbills you get.


I average 90k-140k in pug matches if I win. You solution to winning is to group up with other players like you mentioned TS above. I'm sorry but forcing players to group to win more is not good game design. It should be designed for the individual thats why we have things like ELO.


Since winning is important, you need to remain viable and to be viable you need the necessary upgrades. If you look at STD compared to DHS there is a huge difference. The community as a whole agrees almost 90% of the time you need DHS.


I do sell excess equipment, I don't sell mechs I end up getting mech bays. Less Cbill earnings = less mech I purchase = less mech bays = less MC. From my personal play it's hurting PGI more then helping them. Not to mention all the new players who just up and quit.


Here you go again telling me to get out or deal with it. Thats not helping fix the problem of a dwindling playerbase, grind to fun ratio. If you could provide solutions or suggestions that would be great instead just being in the way to people who want to fix the game and make it thrive.


Did you play before 12v12 and the income nerf? Because all these new players are just asking for the same deal. They are not entitled they are just asking for the equal chance other players got. If anything the entitlements went to people who played before the income nerf. The reason why people care is because they want this game to succeed and not fail.


Whining about whining is pretty pathetic too.

Couple of things. K/D ratio is a common way to tracking personal performance. Most people here, including you, keep bringing up "viability". So if that doesn't mean personal performance, please tell me what it means.

Especially as it pertains to C-bills. You want to be the best? You want more money? What?

That's why you don't understand what I am talking about. I don't have a ******* clue what you are on about.

If you make 100K plus on average, then you have less of a grind than me. So why are you complaining and I'm not? FTR, married, kid, FT job with commute, 18 horses on 40+ acres at the In-law's place across the street etc so no I don't play 40 hours a week.

The reason I am not complaining is I have fun playing. Buying the Storm package is the first time in my life (over 45 and I owned a Commodore 64 so I have a history with video games) I've ever spent money on a F2P title. The Dead Linger remains the only game I've ever pre-ordered and that was as much because of the devs being cool as it looking like it will be an awesome zombie sandbox game.

So when I say this may not be the game for you, I am not, repeat NOT saying **** or ****. I am saying if you aren't having fun, "Why are you here?". Seriously, why are you here if you hate it so much?

If you just want to kill stuff and earn freebies, maybe PS2 is for you. I love how Wyvern says it's easy with a team, but then dismisses the idea of getting a team here.

Also, I am complaining about the whining. I am not bitching and crying about how you guys are ruining the game, and if you would just **** things would be better. That would be whining. I am trying to help you see a way to stay and have fun, or help you realize this game sucks poop thru a straw and you are wasting your time.

I seriously doubt if the devs will make massive, potentially risky, kneejerk reactions any more since it went so well with Ghost Heat etc, and the fact that major changes are coming down the pike. Oh and they seem to have sold a ton of those Boar's Heads for $30 apiece.

Anyway, it's obvious you don't want my opinion or advice, so I am out. Here's hoping you find the game you are looking for, and with luck it will be MWO and we will either drop together or blow the {Scrap} outta each other!!

[Nick Makiaveli]

TearlessWyvern, on 10 October 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

I have the gift of foresight. From other, similar posts as well as seeing the rate for my self, I know I will become exhausted quickly and would rather spend that time doing something else.

Have to address this. So in other words you don't see a future for yourself in this game because fighting in a mech doesn't interest you enough so your enjoyment would have to come thru earning achievements (which there are none) or the novelty of new mechs (C-bills too slow, MC too expensive).

So why not just say that and bail? You left the devs feedback, so why not just make a note on your calendar to come back in 3-6 months to see what happened with CW?

That's why some of us doubt your credibility. We predate the Intarwebz and know the difference between the WWW and the Internet, so we've seen our share of this kind of thing before. Reinventing the wheel is smart, but not original.

[Sandpit]

Otto Cannon, on 10 October 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

I don't need proof to hold an opinion and comment, I'm not trying to convict someone in a court of law. Where's your proof that I'm wrong? See? Your response is just as bad as any troll according to your own logic.

Quite frankly, if you can't see from the way the OP was written that it's highly unlikely to be a new player you're not very perceptive. PGI have said that they only really listen to new players posting for the first time rather than regular forum users, which encourages people to make fake accounts just for a chance to be taken seriously. That's strong grounds to be at the very least suspicious of this type of post even if it was better written in a more convincing way.

And yet again, you contributed nothing to this conversation other than accusing someone of something. My point to you was that you accuse someone of being something based on nothing more than "hey, i don't agree with them, lets discredit them so others will disagree with them as well." You are contributing to the toxic atmosphere of the forums and I called you on it, just as I do the other trolls, instigators, and white knights. If you cant' see that then you won't understand anything I just said anyhow. My entire point is, why not post something that actually contributes or at least gives your thoughts and ideas on the subject instead of "Look, he isn't really a new player so we shouldn't listen." when you have absolutely NO proof or reason to do so other than you just didn't like the look of them.

I guess I am just asking why you feel the need to even do that? You have no idea who the poster is, you offered no ideas, thoughts, critique, etc. but felt the need to take the time to basically attack the credibility of someone. You don't see how that does nothing at all to help the game, community, players, at all in any way?