47 replies to this topic

[Nik Reaper]

So , while most would agree that the 2xAc20 + a few extra med lasers or even 1 or 2 LL could fit on a 90t+ mech , and realistically it would dominate, what should be done to make it so that the ones using 1 ac20 don't get gimped and those using 2 + some other weapons + a lot of armor don't become the be all end all on the battlefield?

As far I can see only the penalty for firing both at the same time could be increased , so that after one alpha your at 70~80% heat (as those take up a lot of space so not too many dhs) so that it's still a somewhat skilled high burst damage... , at least without changing the weapon itself.
This post is much more likely to accomplish something if a passable idea is agreed upon than saying it would be so OP and such, because 2xAC20 mechs are cannon and are possible , and just need a good balancing factor , one most could agree to anyway.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dual AC20 on an Assault should be fearsome. Should be allowed. It is balanced by low speed and limited crit space. You can't have torso mounted AC20s with XL so speed would be limited b the mass required and the crit space limits. It would be a dangerous opponent, but isn't that what we want? A challenge?

[Kitane]

Hypothetical 95t Assault mech:

STD325, Endo-steel, 512/550 armor, 10 DHS
2 AC20 + 8t ammo, 2 MLAS, 1 AMS+ 1t ammo (or 3 MLAS)
64 km/h with speed tweak.

Downgrade to STD300 and 59 km/h and gain 5.5t to add JJs, heatsinks and/or moar MLAS.

A perfect pug stomper.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kitane, on 10 October 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Hypothetical 95t Assault mech:

STD325, Endo-steel, 512/550 armor, 10 DHS
2 AC20 + 8t ammo, 2 MLAS, 1 AMS+ 1t ammo (or 3 MLAS)
64 km/h with speed tweak.

Downgrade to STD300 and 59 km/h and gain 5.5t to add JJs, heatsinks and/or moar MLAS.

A perfect pug stomper.

FTFY

[Alistair Winter]

One part of the problem is that PGI hasn't been able to figure out how to balance certain classic BT tech for this game specifically. Assault mechs with multiple ballistics are a good example, but let's not forget the Clan mechs, which will probably be very different from how people remember them in other MW games.

Another part of the problem is that fans have very different expectations, making it difficult for PGI to make everyone happy. Some people want MWO to be a carbon copy of TT rules, and will justify any imbalance in the game with their battlecry "That's how things worked in TT." Other gamers never played TT or read BT novels, and want MWO to more closely resemble older MW games. A third group never knew BT before MWO, and don't care if it completely breaks commonly accepted BT lore. And a fourth group are very focused on the idea that balancing the game for competitive, elite level play is not only the key to improving the game for everyone, but a complete necessity for the long term success of MWO.

No matter what road PGI takes, they're going to step on some toes.

I personally think they will go with the secret fifth option, leaving all different groups equally ambivalent. Probably introduce the Annihilator and then reduce the AC20 ammo capacity as a balancing tool, making no sense at all and only partially solving the problem. But then, some people have accused me of being a bit jaded.

[Xeno Phalcon]

<Ac40 assaults lumber onto the field>


<Suddenly all jenners and spiders are using ERLL>

[Mechteric]

The problem isn't the Assault mechs themselves, but that right now many a PUG match has around 8 of them, with some lights and heavies mixed in. While tonnage limits would help somewhat, I think they need address why people aren't taking mediums as much (and I'll throw Quickdraw in here too). IMO its the mediums are just scaled too big, they're easy to hit, and they go down fast since they don't have much armor. I'd bet if all the other mediums (and QKD) were scaled down to about where the Hunchback is then maybe we'd have something.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 October 2013 - 05:26 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Xeno Phalcon, on 10 October 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

<Ac40 assaults lumber onto the field>


<Suddenly all jenners and spiders are using ERLL>

So we can use AC40 Assaults now then???

[JohnnyWayne]

Fireing 2 AC20 at once could knock you over when kockdown is implemented again. Same could go for 2 lrm 20 + something else with recoil.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 10 October 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Ngamok]

I wanna go boom boom

[Joseph Mallan]

Ngamok, on 10 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I wanna go boom boom

In production in 3048!!!!

[Xeno Phalcon]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

So we can use AC40 Assaults now then???

Don't look at me I dont have any issues, People already focus down AC40 jagers on sight anyways.

[MustrumRidcully]

If ballistics are a problem on assaults, they should consider changing the damage drop off. An AC/40 is currently still dangerous at 540m, since it's still 20 damage at that range.

[mike29tw]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

If ballistics are a problem on assaults, they should consider changing the damage drop off. An AC/40 is currently still dangerous at 540m, since it's still 20 damage at that range.

There's really no reason why ballistic weapons have different damage drop-off model than energy weapons. AC20 hitting harder than AC10 at AC10's optimal range is absurd.

[MustrumRidcully]

mike29tw, on 10 October 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

There's really no reason why ballistic weapons have different damage drop-off model than energy weapons. AC20 hitting harder than AC10 at AC10's optimal range is absurd.

In general, the effective ranges of weapons in M:WO are inflated. The particular drop-off model for ballistics is yet another thing on top of that.

Range and speed tend to interact. If you can run out of range or into range within 10 seconds or within 5 seconds can make quite a difference (about 2 vs 1 alpha, for example). I wonder if with overall lower weapon ranges, existing speed differences would start mattering more.

[Nryrony]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

So we can use AC40 Assaults now then???

Don't care for AC40, I want quad UAC5 or UAC10, if I can't get those then an Axman or a Hatchetman...

[OldWateley]

AC could be better balanced by adding bullet drop outside effective range, it would better simulate the minus to hit found in TT, it would really better simulate actual ballistics. Would also make pin point shots more difficult. So only the AC2 or change fired AC5/UAC5 would allow for a rate of fire fast enough to really track your target at range based on trace fire.

[General Taskeen]

Lyoto Machida, on 10 October 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Wow...that is a crazy looking shot.

That's what it looks like when a King Crab ambushes and charges you with two massive Deathgiver AC/20's of doom. The claws are also hand actuators so it can grab onto you, hold you in place, and deliver damage at point blank range - there is no escape.




And about AC's in the thread. The main reason they are a concern is simply because PGI opts to put in full damage translation from TT. 1 Shell, 1 type of full damage. Instead they should have made more Dakka, like actual autocannons, that scales up in damage, and simply shoots bursts of bullets, cools down, then shoots another burst of bullets. For instance they could have made different types of manufactured AC/20's, one that shoots 8 Shells and scales up to 20 damage, shoots a little faster, and an AC/20 that shoots 4 bullets, but slower, etc.

They pretty much did full out damage/heat copy/paste from TT with everything but the MG and Flamer, which doesn't always work in real-time.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 October 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

I'm not an assault pilot and still wouldn't pilot them even with 4 balistic slots. I do think they need to bring those bigs in though.

[Nryrony]

General Taskeen, on 10 October 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

And about AC's in the thread. The main reason they are a concern is simply because PGI opts to put in full damage translation from TT. 1 Shell, 1 type of full damage. Instead they should have made more Dakka, like actual autocannons, that scales up in damage, and simply shoots bursts of bullets, cools down, then shoots another burst of bullets. For instance they could have made different types of manufactured AC/20's, one that shoots 8 Shells and scales up to 20 damage, shoots a little faster, and an AC/20 that shoots 4 bullets, but slower, etc.

In deed, even the B-Tech lore says that there isn't the AC5, its a rough category for weapons of its size that deal this amount of damage in a certain time while using roughly the same caliber.

So yes, there could be that one shot AC20, but there could also be the rapid-fire AC20 that works more like a machine gun.

Second issue is that the balance strongly shifted towards ballistics. Especially the energy weapons became too hot and heat-sinks too ineffective. And then there is the SHS vs DHS issue too..., Missiles are also not working properly (hit reg and range).