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What Medium To Buy?


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#21 Koniving

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 12 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

I'm torn between the Trebuchet and the Kintaro 19 right now. Why no lovin for either of these?


Kintaros are pretty good at the moment. The Trebuchets though have the same problem they always have had. They're an eyeball shorter than an Atlas with a huge CT and arms that don't update to add/remove missile pods. They need a hitbox overhaul.

Actually most of the mechs do, but Trebs need it the most.

Scores below.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2013 - 02:42 PM.


#22 CrashieJ

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

BJ-1

#23 Kjudoon

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:52 PM

That's a lot of good info K. Actually everyone I do appreciate it. Right now, I am a lousy shot, so I prefer LRMs but think those SSRMs are going to find their way into my builds as an anti-spider kit. It seems the KTO-19 is a better buy than a newer XL engine for the JM to get only 10kph when I have maxed the armor out already. Something different to improve for now.

The size issue does worry me a little, but after seeing how painfully slow a JM is versus how fun a Jenner is (particularly with my 2xLRM5 loadout) the KTO is going to be a good change.

BTW, my biggest purchase mistake was a BJ-1, before I knew better and blew all my Cadet bonus on it. :huh: has a sad. LRMS, si. Sniper... muy pelegro! Particularly when you lag and can't shoot.

#24 juxstapo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Op, if you haven't already, I'd also recommend going Blackjacks. The hunchback has them beat in damage soaking ability and the existence of missile variants, (but the damage soak still isn't phenomenal, have to play a medium properly regardless). The BJ's stomp the floor with arm mounted energy and ballistics, jets, a bigger engine variant, and the ability to rock an AC/20 or Gauss in conjunction with an XL engine, (and with that lovely pitch too!)

#25 Wintersdark

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 12 October 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

That's a lot of good info K. Actually everyone I do appreciate it. Right now, I am a lousy shot, so I prefer LRMs but think those SSRMs are going to find their way into my builds as an anti-spider kit. It seems the KTO-19 is a better buy than a newer XL engine for the JM to get only 10kph when I have maxed the armor out already. Something different to improve for now.

The size issue does worry me a little, but after seeing how painfully slow a JM is versus how fun a Jenner is (particularly with my 2xLRM5 loadout) the KTO is going to be a good change.

BTW, my biggest purchase mistake was a BJ-1, before I knew better and blew all my Cadet bonus on it. :huh: has a sad. LRMS, si. Sniper... muy pelegro! Particularly when you lag and can't shoot.


Honestly, when people are new I always recommend they use lasers first. LRM's seem like an easy way to go because they're guided, but they are a surprisingly difficult weapon to use effectively. When firing indirectly (you don't have line of sight to your target) it's really hard to know if you can even hit your target or not. Even when firing directly, larger LRM launchers have an abysmal hit rate against fast moving targets unless you're also running TAG.

But if you're running TAG and holding it on your target to improve LRM tracking speed, you could as well be equipping lasers.

Also, passive defenses exist for both LRM's and SSRM's: ECM and AMS. Thus, it's entirely possible to have your primary weapon systems rendered useless due to passive defenses, which can really suck. ECM in particular can be hard and soft countered, but this really adds a lot of complexity to these weapons.

Now, the reason I recommend lasers is that the beam duration allows you to correct poor aim - you can drag the beam onto your target as it's firing and still do some damage. Also, lasers are "hitscan" weapons, there's no projectile travel time to account for.

Lasers are really the easiest weapons to use effectively.

#26 Kjudoon

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

First trip out. Very disappointing stock engine WAY too slow.

Second trip: did 16 points damage, a spotting assist and died 2:11. A big improvement.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 October 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#27 Kjudoon

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:23 PM

After 10 matches 9 of which I died inside of 5 minutes regardless of caution, blob protection or being bigger and more heavily armored than my opponant, the KTO is now my biggest purchase mistake ever. Can't get a loadout that doesn't overheat even in chain fire, moves slower and manouvers worse than my JM with similar armor but none of the speed or punch needed to get out of any jam or kill any target. Shoulda bought the XL 300 for the JM.

PGI should have a small rule about mech sizes not being bigger than mechs heavier than it.

Huge mistake. Selling it immediately. Don't think I'll ever bother with a Medium mech again at this rate.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 October 2013 - 07:26 PM.


#28 Wintersdark

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:45 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 12 October 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

After 10 matches 9 of which I died inside of 5 minutes regardless of caution, blob protection or being bigger and more heavily armored than my opponant, the KTO is now my biggest purchase mistake ever. Can't get a loadout that doesn't overheat even in chain fire, moves slower and manouvers worse than my JM with similar armor but none of the speed or punch needed to get out of any jam or kill any target. Shoulda bought the XL 300 for the JM.

PGI should have a small rule about mech sizes not being bigger than mechs heavier than it.

Huge mistake. Selling it immediately. Don't think I'll ever bother with a Medium mech again at this rate.

Before selling it, what build are you using? You're not running the stock build are you?

#29 Kjudoon

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:56 PM

too late. Sold it after yet another embarassing inability to turn that pig around in under 5 seconds to avoid getting blown to pieces. I was infuriated with how poorly it performed.

It was the stock Std 275 engine. Top speed 81. when I've driven the trial atlases, I got about the same control function: horrible. My JM moved with more nimble feet and that's not good. AND standing next to JMs, they were smaller. That's messed up! Lighter mechs should NEVER be bigger than a heavier mech. NEVER.

I tried 4x LRM5s and 4xSSRMs with 3MLs I also split the difference between missile platforms. Oh good lord. Extremely slow fire rate. I was lagging up to 2 seconds to fire a first volley and it did not even respond to half the fire commands hotlinked to the mouse or keyboard configs.

My best round I survived because I let everyone go in front of me, and then waited way in the back and dropped LRMs while they all brawled. 5 kill assists that game. With the amount of shots I was taking, I should have done more than 115 damage too. I could not hit lights or anything closer than 500m it seemed at times and the trigger delay was crazy. I wondered if I had bay doors, but didn't seem to. Most rounds, I died first on my team and usually under 4 minutes no matter what I tried. I couldn't stay with the front lines, or maneouver out of trouble.

I dunno. It was a worse experience than with the BJ.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 October 2013 - 07:58 PM.


#30 Kjudoon

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

My latest foray into Medium mechs has me very depressed about buying any more mechs. Some things I've realized about my style of play.

1. Speed. Speed speed speed. If it can't break 100, I can't stand it.
2. Gotta have all three hardpoints. Or at least, if not all three, Missiles must be there for LRMs.
3. Gotta be mostly symetrical. I hate hardpoints of the same type split between arm and torso unless equal on both sides.

Basically, that leaves me with only a few choices. The Jenner, Spider, Commando fit me best.

I thought the Kintaro would have worked, but it's handling is worse than a heavy for some reason. Maybe it's PGI, but I don't know. The Cicada doesn't carry missiles save for a premium variant, and the Trebuchet is supposed to have the same problems as a Kintaro (big and easy to kill). Hunchies have one variant I like, but way too slow.

Heavies all fail the speed requirement with the best being a Quickdraw... but those are ligher armor than even the Kintaros and Hunchies so WTF??? Dragons, awkward hardpoints and a CT the size of the Pyramid.

So ultimately, I dunno. I want to play a Medium... but I just can't find the mix to make it work, or the money to upgrade it to be worth playing unless I spend more than a few hours in a mech that actuallly works like my LRM Jenner.

So very frustrated. I'm really hating the hardpoint system.

#31 MisterPlanetarian

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:34 PM

Heres a decent Kintaro 18 loadout.

Theres a reason as to why people recommend the hunchback. Kintaros need ideally an XL340 or 350 engine to work, DHS and Endo Steel. Your main weapons will be either SSRM2's or SRM 4's. You can't really use them for another role.

The hunchback and its 3 preferred variants(4G, 4P and 4SP) are flexible and powerful. It's also one of the smaller medium mechs. You won't be as fast as the Streak spamming anti light mech builds but you can definately do well as a relatively fast and agile support brawler. Hitting 90-98 kph is not at all hard with Speed Tweak unlocked.

Also: No medium makes a decent LRM boat. They can't fit enough ammo and big enough launchers to make it work. For that we have the Catapult and later the Thunderbolt.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 12 October 2013 - 11:35 PM.


#32 Wintersdark

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:53 PM

View PostKjudoon, on 12 October 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

My latest foray into Medium mechs has me very depressed about buying any more mechs. Some things I've realized about my style of play.

1. Speed. Speed speed speed. If it can't break 100, I can't stand it.
2. Gotta have all three hardpoints. Or at least, if not all three, Missiles must be there for LRMs.
3. Gotta be mostly symetrical. I hate hardpoints of the same type split between arm and torso unless equal on both sides.

Basically, that leaves me with only a few choices. The Jenner, Spider, Commando fit me best.

I thought the Kintaro would have worked, but it's handling is worse than a heavy for some reason. Maybe it's PGI, but I don't know. The Cicada doesn't carry missiles save for a premium variant, and the Trebuchet is supposed to have the same problems as a Kintaro (big and easy to kill). Hunchies have one variant I like, but way too slow.
I'd argue that you're not giving the Mediums a fair shake.

You can't run a small STD on a Kintaro and hope to have any success at all. A SSRM2/MLas Kintaro needs sufficient speed to engage lighter mechs where it's SSRM2 payload is effective. They can't fit a large enough Standard engine to work, so XL it is.

This is why I was asking what your build was. Many, many mechs have "requirements" like that - the Quickdraw/Dragon is similar: You run them with a large engine, because otherwise they're just crappy heavies instead of fast, solid strikers.

The Kintaro isn't particularly easy to kill - the trebuchet is worse - but for mediums, you need speed.

The hardpoints... PGI has some input, but generally speaking they all follow tabletop canon - that is, if the mech doesn't carry missiles in TT, it won't in MWO.

Quote

Heavies all fail the speed requirement with the best being a Quickdraw... but those are ligher armor than even the Kintaros and Hunchies so WTF??? Dragons, awkward hardpoints and a CT the size of the Pyramid.
What?! Armor is determined entirely by chassis weight. Quickdraws have more armor than any medium. You do know you can change the stock armor, right? You should always maximize armor on every mech, though in some cases you can pare bits off some places. Always start with max armor though.

Quote

So ultimately, I dunno. I want to play a Medium... but I just can't find the mix to make it work, or the money to upgrade it to be worth playing unless I spend more than a few hours in a mech that actuallly works like my LRM Jenner.

So very frustrated. I'm really hating the hardpoint system.

Without the hardpoint system, mechs would have no real identity at all. They'd just be bags you put weapons in.

Your problem is definitely that you're not giving the mechs a fair shake. Mechs are expensive, and upgrading them is too, but buying then selling them is just foolish. It's a huge loss in cbills, may as well keep them and come back to them later when you've got cbills for the necessary upgrades.

#33 aniviron

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:05 AM

Another Hunchback pilot recommending you try out the HBK line. The 4SP is very forgiving and a good way to learn the class; the only downside is that SRMs are bad and have been bad for months. When SRMs are good, this is an easy mech to pilot when you're new with lots of room to improve as you get better. The 4H is a super solid mech, really lends itself to a big ballistic (20 or gauss) plus five lasers for tons of pain in a small package. The 4P used to be the most devastating striker on the field until the ghost heat nerf; it's still a pretty punishing mech against an assault or light who underestimates just how much damage an alpha will do- will leg lights in one hit, and can punch through an Atlas' chest in one more.

The hunches are hard to get used to, but if you allocate your armor intelligently (all but 2-3 points should go in front, the hunch wraps around) and get used to keeping your cannons twisted away from your opponent, you're also rewarded with the overall smallest 50tonner around.

#34 Deathlike

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:16 AM

View PostKoniving, on 12 October 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

The only medium I recommend avoiding is the Trebuchet. The rest are pretty solid.


The 7K is the best of the buckets... finding the 2 most compatible with the player is an exercise in torture. Although, the 5J was better than I had imagined, but the 7M was majorly disappointing and the 3C was significantly worse than my experience in the Cent-D.

To the OP, the answer is this...

The cheapest medium is the Hunchback (XL is a bad idea, but that also means you aren't going to lose too much money in grinding them). The second cheapest is the Centurion... more sturdy than the Hunchy if you fear of losing your torso often, but you lose range.

BJs are not for beginners (it takes a true support mentality to use them).

Kintaros have like basically one good role.

Unless you are good as missiles, the Trebuchet will very likely give you the most trouble.

The Cicada plays very much like an overweight light.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 October 2013 - 12:16 AM.


#35 Kitane

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:31 AM

I've bought two Kintaros yesterday, 20 and 18.

I am running KTO-20 as a brawler with 275 STD engine with two SRM6 in RT and 4 MLAS. Like an overweight and slightly slower Hunchback 4-SP. Adding a third launcher would kill the heat efficiency and I was already struggling with heat. I was planning to add Artemis after eliting the mech to make up for two lost heatsinks. Maybe I will try the third launcher now with full unlocks, but I don't know yet.

The mech was slow, the slowest of my mediums. But it was surprisingly durable, even more than Hunchbacks and it could hold its own in a brawl. After getting hang of it, most matches ended up with a decent brawling and 2 kills.

The obvious thing to learn was the fact that a whole left of my mech was basically a massive shield, because everything was located in CT, RT and RA.

But just like with -4SP Hunchback, relying on SRMs gives me mixed feelings and it's difficult to match the killing performance of a ballistic/laser build.

I've reached the full elite unlock with 19 matches, with 1.53 K/D and ridiculously lucky 2.13 W/L ratio (I never play in a group, only PUGs)

----

KTO-18 (or rather ITANO-18) as a XL330 5SSRM boat is just ridiculous. There are many lights currently in the game and this monstrosity just cuts through them like a hot knife through a butter. It was fully elited after 15 matches with 4.33 K/D ratio and 1.5 W/L ratio.

Kintaros are pretty sweet after PGI fixed their CT.

Edited by Kitane, 13 October 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#36 Kjudoon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:09 AM

Well, I feel kinda stupid I reacting too quickly, but at the same time, wow! I was doing so bad it was humiliating. Killed by a Jenner in under 2 minutes at a Cap without causing much if any damage? That's bad.

I've started trying out the trial Centurion for now, and I'm surprised I actually like the way it moves. Far faster than the Kintaro 19 I had. Could it be a flaw in PGI's modeling of the mech or something else?

I don't think I'll be buying a new one till I can get one PLUS the big enough XL engine to go with it. So I lose a lot of CBills for now... And I am NOT a brawler pilot in any way unless forced (and suck at it). So that's what I'm going to have to keep in mind for the future.

I do appreciate all your advice, guys.

Quote

What?! Armor is determined entirely by chassis weight. Quickdraws have more armor than any medium. You do know you can change the stock armor, right? You should always maximize armor on every mech, though in some cases you can pare bits off some places. Always start with max armor though.


When I look at Armor ratings on the Mechlab this is what I find, and those numbers have been true:

Starting Armor
Kintaro: 352-358 Max 370
Trebuchet: 224-256 Max 338
Quickdraw: 256-286 Max 402
Hunchback: 320 Max 338
Jagermech: 192-256 Max 422

So as you can see, the Kintaro and Hunchie start out with better armor than two heavies, they can't max out as high, but even the HEAVIES can't reach their max unless they cut their loadout and/or engine sizes back that I've found. My JM comes in at a fat 368


Quote

Without the hardpoint system, mechs would have no real identity at all. They'd just be bags you put weapons in..


This is true. Then again, I haven't played MW TT since that's all they were. I just wish there were more symetrical variants. I suspect this will change as more mechs become available.


Quote

Your problem is definitely that you're not giving the mechs a fair shake. Mechs are expensive, and upgrading them is too, but buying then selling them is just foolish. It's a huge loss in cbills, may as well keep them and come back to them later when you've got cbills for the necessary upgrades.


You're right... I didn't. I should have just backed off from that one and waited to get the money to make it work.

#37 Wintersdark

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 13 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

When I look at Armor ratings on the Mechlab this is what I find, and those numbers have been true:

Starting Armor
Kintaro: 352-358 Max 370
Trebuchet: 224-256 Max 338
Quickdraw: 256-286 Max 402
Hunchback: 320 Max 338
Jagermech: 192-256 Max 422

So as you can see, the Kintaro and Hunchie start out with better armor than two heavies, they can't max out as high, but even the HEAVIES can't reach their max unless they cut their loadout and/or engine sizes back that I've found. My JM comes in at a fat 368

Forget about their stock loadouts. Starting armor is totally, entirely irrelevant and utterly meaningless. You should never run a mech with it's stock loadout. Also, those that can't make full armor? I garauntee you're trying that with Single Heat Sinks. Don't ever, EVER run Single Heat Sinks. Not ever.

I say this as a very, very experienced player who knows wtf he's talking about:

Always, ALWAYS start with maxed armor. Always. You can pare a bit off - typically a little off the legs to get an extra ton available, sometimes off an arm or two when you're in a mech using them as shield arms. But your torsos? Head? Max armor. Always. Understand when others talk about mech builds, it's always under the assumption that you've already maxed armor.

When you buy a mech, feel free to play around with it's stock build, but understand this. Stock, non-champion builds in MWO are all horribly bad. You'll get pasted in them, every time. Before even beginning to rate the mechs performance, strip it completely, add DHS, max armor, then work out the engine, heat sinks and weapons with what space is left. ES if required.

See, for example, a stock JM6-S: 192 armor, 2AC5, 2AC2, 2ML, STD260, 16% cooling efficiency (7s to overheat) and 3 tons ammo total.
A modified JM6-S: Same weapons, an additional 2 tons of ammo (one for each type), basically the same speed, 352 armor, 33% cooling (14s to overheat). Not that this is a particularly good build, but it's a good example of how much you can improve the stock loadout.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 October 2013 - 09:30 AM.


#38 Redwo1f

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:14 AM

View PostKjudoon, on 13 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:




You're right... I didn't. I should have just backed off from that one and waited to get the money to make it work.


Yup, ALWAYS GIVE A MECH A CHANCE. Never be too hasty to throw it out. Some of my favorite mechs have been ones I didn't think I was going to like and only picked up because I wanted to elite/master another. A switch in load-out and some c-bills spent can make all the difference in the world.

#39 MisterPlanetarian

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

Impulse buyer reporting in. It really sucks, here are my two highlights:

*Got Myself a Raven 3L that's seen a grand total of 6 drops
*LRM Awesome because 60 missiles per volley was totally gonna last forever.

After these two I learned my lesson and have not made a stupid purchase since. I don't buy a mech unless I plan to master it. I Sold the awesome because I was never going to master it anyway and it was just collecting dust in my mechbay. Still have the Raven 3L because it might someday be useful once the regular ravens arent suicidemachines anymore.

#40 Kjudoon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:28 AM

Me= kitten.
You guys and common sense = Grumpy Cat.

Posted Image

Now I has a sad. But a happy cause I finallly upgraded my JM, so time to grind back up for a Medium that I'll figure out what to do with. Gotta learn em.

Edited by Kjudoon, 13 October 2013 - 10:30 AM.






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