58 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

DirePhoenix, on 12 October 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

One of the stipulations of the agreement was that they can't discuss the details of their agreement beyond that FASA wasn't going to use those licensed images. However, if they can't discuss those details, then they can't tell anyone else that something is or isn't part of the agreement that they can't discuss, so...


(so how can you enforce parts of an agreement that you can't discuss with people that weren't part of the agreement? You can't.)


...so if someone else makes new images of a "Marauder" that isn't copying art already licensed by someone else or used for something else, no one can stop them from using them.

A simple solution to the problem would be for Topps and PGI to license the art for the mechs from Studio Nue from another Macross series.

For example, this Glaug is from Macross M3 Dreamcast video game.



Looks similar to the original Glaug but different enough to ensure that HG stays away.

There are other versions of the Variable Fighters as well that look completely different from the VF-1 that HG has access to.

The VF-11 Super Thunderbolt would make a great replacement for the Crusader.



Then there is the VF-25 Messiah for the Wasp or Stinger.

The point is that Studio Nue did make derivative versions of the classic mechs and HG can't do {Scrap} about it. There is the ADR-03-MK II & III Destroid "Cheyenne" that is an updated version of what BT calls the Warhammer.

[DirePhoenix]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 October 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

A simple solution to the problem would be for Topps and PGI to license the art for the mechs from Studio Nue from another Macross series.

For example, this Glaug is from Macross M3 Dreamcast video game.



Looks similar to the original Glaug but different enough to ensure that HG stays away.

There are other versions of the Variable Fighters as well that look completely different from the VF-1 that HG has access to.

The VF-11 Super Thunderbolt would make a great replacement for the Crusader.



Then there is the VF-25 Messiah for the Wasp or Stinger.

The point is that Studio Nue did make derivative versions of the classic mechs and HG can't do {Scrap} about it. There is the ADR-03-MK II & III Destroid "Cheyenne" that is an updated version of what BT calls the Warhammer.

I would rather not have ANY outside licensed art from anything used for anything in the entire BattleTech Universe.

These mechs are important enough to the franchise that they shouldn't have anyone else's art that was made for something else standing in for them. The franchise has good artists now that can make images for these mechs that will be our own. NOT some recycled art from something else.

Battletech art for Battletech. Macross art for Macross. The community needs to let go of those old images or else the franchise will never be able to move on with images of our own for these mechs that have played a key role in the history of the franchise.

[CrashieJ]

the redesigns are actually pretty ******* good. and can put the past licences to shame.

seriously guys, we need to learn to let go.

[James The Fox Dixon]

DirePhoenix, on 12 October 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I would rather not have ANY outside licensed art from anything used for anything in the entire BattleTech Universe.

These mechs are important enough to the franchise that they shouldn't have anyone else's art that was made for something else standing in for them. The franchise has good artists now that can make images for these mechs that will be our own. NOT some recycled art from something else.

Battletech art for Battletech. Macross art for Macross. The community needs to let go of those old images or else the franchise will never be able to move on with images of our own for these mechs that have played a key role in the history of the franchise.

If the Battletech artists had actually did GOOD replacement art I would agree, but the reseen are some of the worst designs I've ever seen.

[Barantor]

I know that it and the warhammer are pretty iconic, but if they can't get a redesign different enough then we should just let it go.

There are hundreds of other BT mechs that would love to get their moment in the sun and have never been in a MW game.

The Guillotine. - 4L, 4P and 5M in service in timeline.

The Grasshopper. - 5H, 5N, and 5J still around.

The Black Knight. - (yeah it has seen the sun, but still very cool IS mech)

The Grand Dragon. - (already have the dragon, just different variants and maybe a few different bits)


These are just the more common ones of the time and would fit in well with the existing heavies. There are loads more mediums, assaults and lights left as well.

[DirePhoenix]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 October 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

If the Battletech artists had actually did GOOD replacement art I would agree, but the reseen are some of the worst designs I've ever seen.

Here's the thing though: Those reseen images in the 2003 TRO: Project Phoenix? Those images are owned by Topps, Inc. They're licensed to Catalyst Game Labs. PGI does not have a license from Topps to use any of their artwork in MWO. All of the mech art in MWO is new art created exclusively for MWO.

That means PGI has to create new art for every mech anyway.

Also, I'm not convinced that all the designs are bad, but the artists interpretations in that TRO are definitely less than stellar. Because here's the horribad 2003 Marauder (by Chris Lewis):



And here's the same design interpreted by FD (Alex Iglesias), who is also MWO's lead artist:



...which is definitely more palatable. The artists make all the difference. Topps/CGL had no issues from HG with these designs (which have been used for a decade), which also shows that it's just the Macross imagery and nothing else.

The hesitation to use other designs comes from the community, as most of them before 2003 were definitely hardcore-"original"-artwork-or-nothing-else (when the artwork itself was not original to either HG or FASA), and then went nuclear when they were presented with 2003's sub-optimal artwork. We as a community need to let go of those old images and accept something created in-house specifically for Battletech/MechWarrior for these mechs.

We can use new designs. We can't use the Macross designs. It doesn't have to look like the image above (and technically it can't look exactly like that if it appeared in print). But all it has to do is keep true to the text descriptions. For a Marauder: It needs to be reversed-legged, gun-pod arms, and a dorsal cannon (which implies a horizontal torso instead of a vertical torso).

Edited by DirePhoenix, 12 October 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

James The Fox Dixon, on 12 October 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

If the Battletech artists had actually did GOOD replacement art I would agree, but the reseen are some of the worst designs I've ever seen.

In all fairness, I'd argue that the general design of the MAD-4X that they did for XTRO:SW1 (which is just shy of a year old at this point) isn't bad...


I'd be interested in seeing it with the classic MAD-3R loadout (and, yes, the AC/5 would be over the right shoulder (in place of the launcher opposite our view) rather than centered ).

Moreover, they could hybridize the 4X design with the TRO:PP design (pictured in DirePhoenix's post), "FD-ize" the result, and create a MWO Marauder that way...

[Walks_In_Circles]

An Orion has the hardpoints to equip 2 ER PPCs and an AC10 which is essentially a Marauder. Beggar's can't be choosers, but it works surprisingly well. The marauder was a fast footed heavy support mech and with an XL, the Orion fills those shoes.

[Strum Wealh]

Hrothmar, on 12 October 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

An Orion has the hardpoints to equip 2 ER PPCs and an AC10 which is essentially a Marauder. Beggar's can't be choosers, but it works surprisingly well. The marauder was a fast footed heavy support mech and with an XL, the Orion fills those shoes.

The classic MAD-3R Marauder loadout is x2 PPCs, x2 Medium Lasers, and x1 AC/5 (which is also a loadout that the MWO Orion can emulate) with a Standard Engine.

The closest to what you're describing is the MAD-9S (Light (not XL) Engine, x2 ER-PPCs, x2 ER Medium Lasers, x1 LB 10-X, x1 Flamer, and a BAP).

[Walks_In_Circles]

True. Specifically I'm referring to a build using the Protector which only has 3 energy hardpoints. The marauder was also known to carry ER PPCs after the introduction of double heat sinks. My fondest memories of the Marauder were in using this layout, so that's what I based the build on.

[RandomLurker]

Noone noticed this guy? One of my favorite IS mechs.



It's basically a Marauder redesigned into a Timberwolf copy. The lore even says so, and the looks even match up.

[James The Fox Dixon]

DirePhoenix, on 12 October 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Here's the thing though: Those reseen images in the 2003 TRO: Project Phoenix? Those images are owned by Topps, Inc. They're licensed to Catalyst Game Labs. PGI does not have a license from Topps to use any of their artwork in MWO. All of the mech art in MWO is new art created exclusively for MWO.

That means PGI has to create new art for every mech anyway.

Also, I'm not convinced that all the designs are bad, but the artists interpretations in that TRO are definitely less than stellar. Because here's the horribad 2003 Marauder (by Chris Lewis):



And here's the same design interpreted by FD (Alex Iglesias), who is also MWO's lead artist:



...which is definitely more palatable. The artists make all the difference. Topps/CGL had no issues from HG with these designs (which have been used for a decade), which also shows that it's just the Macross imagery and nothing else.

The hesitation to use other designs comes from the community, as most of them before 2003 were definitely hardcore-"original"-artwork-or-nothing-else (when the artwork itself was not original to either HG or FASA), and then went nuclear when they were presented with 2003's sub-optimal artwork. We as a community need to let go of those old images and accept something created in-house specifically for Battletech/MechWarrior for these mechs.

We can use new designs. We can't use the Macross designs. It doesn't have to look like the image above (and technically it can't look exactly like that if it appeared in print). But all it has to do is keep true to the text descriptions. For a Marauder: It needs to be reversed-legged, gun-pod arms, and a dorsal cannon (which implies a horizontal torso instead of a vertical torso).

Sorry, but both of those mechs look awful and are not Marauders. It looks like an armed worker mech/industrial mech.

Strum Wealh, on 12 October 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

In all fairness, I'd argue that the general design of the MAD-4X that they did for XTRO:SW1 (which is just shy of a year old at this point) isn't bad...


I'd be interested in seeing it with the classic MAD-3R loadout (and, yes, the AC/5 would be over the right shoulder (in place of the launcher opposite our view) rather than centered ).

Moreover, they could hybridize the 4X design with the TRO:PP design (pictured in DirePhoenix's post), "FD-ize" the result, and create a MWO Marauder that way...

I do like the style of the design and it does give the feel of it being a Marauder.

[Adridos]

Strum Wealh, on 12 October 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

I'd be interested in seeing it with the classic MAD-3R loadout (and, yes, the AC/5 would be over the right shoulder (in place of the launcher opposite our view) rather than centered ).

You're in luck, then. The design is taken from Shimmering Sword, who did a normal MAD-3R for fun (and later on another one as a commission from maxoconnor). The design got noticed and he was asked for permission to use it in the XTRO. Then it just took Plog to create the 4X version.

Here's the link:
Original: http://shimmering-sw...auder-293014614
Maxoconnor's: http://shimmering-sw...auder-309448707

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

HugoStiglitz, on 11 October 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

So, despite the fact that Russ and Bryan would want to put the Marauder in game, they can't due to Harmony Gold and their legal team, but what would you guys think if they decided to make a mech, lets call it the "Raider" make it 75 tons, give the stock variant 2xPPC 2xMLas and an AC/5, make it look like a Mad Cat/Timber Wolf but some small changes and without the missile packs, well actually change one to the AC/5.

What do you guys think? Would you like to see this in the game?

Quite wrong. Reseen designs are fair game. Warhammer and Marauder are still possible to be put in the game under the modeling based on the reseen designs.

And even if they use the reseen designs, they'd have to redesign the redesigns... so this is a redesigned-redesign going into the game at that point... Harmony Gold couldn't touch them.

[Farix]

Adridos, on 13 October 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

You're in luck, then. The design is taken from Shimmering Sword, who did a normal MAD-3R for fun (and later on another one as a commission from maxoconnor). The design got noticed and he was asked for permission to use it in the XTRO. Then it just took Plog to create the 4X version.

Here's the link:
Original: http://shimmering-sw...auder-293014614
Maxoconnor's: http://shimmering-sw...auder-309448707

You left out this link: http://shimmering-sw...auder-343280256

[Noth]

Jade Kitsune, on 13 October 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Quite wrong. Reseen designs are fair game. Warhammer and Marauder are still possible to be put in the game under the modeling based on the reseen designs.

And even if they use the reseen designs, they'd have to redesign the redesigns... so this is a redesigned-redesign going into the game at that point... Harmony Gold couldn't touch them.

It's not that Harmony Gold couldn't touch them, it is the fact that Harmony Gold would try. This would lead to PGI having to put up some legal fees and so forth. That can hurt the game. Such a tactic is also not an uncommon occurrence in the business world either. It comes down to whether PGI wants to risk it or not.

[General Taskeen]

RandomLurker, on 12 October 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Noone noticed this guy? One of my favorite IS mechs.



It's basically a Marauder redesigned into a Timberwolf copy. The lore even says so, and the looks even match up.

Yes, my Catapult-C1 (CPLT-H2) is built as a pseudo Rakshasa MDG-1Ar.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Noth, on 13 October 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

It's not that Harmony Gold couldn't touch them, it is the fact that Harmony Gold would try. This would lead to PGI having to put up some legal fees and so forth. That can hurt the game. Such a tactic is also not an uncommon occurrence in the business world either. It comes down to whether PGI wants to risk it or not.

You're not quite familiar with how it would work legally. HG would have to prove in its initial filing that the reseen art infringes upon their claimed ownership of the art of the Glaug and Tomahawk destroids. If they cannot prove in their initial filing to a judge that there is infringement the judge is obligated to throw out the case. Given the current legal climate against patent, copyright, and trademark trolls by the majority of the judges in the country; HG would have to include the art designs that they claim to hold and the comparison to the redone art in their initial filing.

A company cannot claim trademark or copyright to a word. For trademarks, the word must be associated with a specific image. For copyrights, you just can't claim copyright to a word, otherwise it will lead to stagnation of artistic works using the written word.

Another thing, copyright does not protect game systems i.e. the system used by Robotech or Battletech. Those are covered by patents.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 13 October 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[FinsT]

Bhael Fire, on 11 October 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

I just want a mech called the Marauder.
...
The Marauder must happen. It simply must.

And you are not alone. Just yesterday, one of my teammates said that he's in this game for Marauder, and if it'll be firmly and officially decided that it won't be in the game, - same day he'll quit. I asked him, what if they'll reconsider about it in the future, - and he said in such a case, he'd then return. "How strange; to drop the whole game just because of absense of 1 mech", i thought.

I don't know why, but Marauder causes some people to really love it. More than nearly any other mech.