38 replies to this topic

[Tynan]

Compared the larger balance issues this is relatively minor, but I'm wondering what other people think.

Generally speaking, the game as it stands seems to pretty heavily favor high, fixed hardpoints--Stalkers, Jags, Cats (K2s anyway) over low-slung arm mounted weapons. Theoretically, the actuators on the arms allowing for a greater range of movement should be the tradeoff, but by and large that doesn't seem to be the case.

What it comes down to, I think, is that most fixed-arm mechs simply have to great a range of torso twist movement. Stalkers have always felt like the exception, with some nice fat blind spots, but most of the others don't seem to pay quite enough of a price (IMO anyway) for their otherwise optimal weapon mounting (especially catapults, those things are like owls).

Thoughts?

[Mr 144]

I think it should go the opposite route...back to the way mechs worked in the beginning...

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Arms just no longer have the range of motion to be 'worth it'. I'd rather not nerf torso twist at all...in fact, the more the merrier...newbs can't drive though, so PGI is progressively limiting and discouraging articulated movement on every level.

[Tynan]

I agree that's the direction they're going...it's just awful because it's such a good opportunity for chassis variance, but with short articulation ranges and huge twist angles (125 degrees, really?) the only thing that really stands out after a certain point is whether the hardpoint placement is high or low.

[Mr 144]

Big twist doesn't bother me at all. The 'pult use to be 168 degrees (140 + 10% Pilot Skill, doubled with elite), which was an awesome unique trait (and no, I never ran one). Like-wise, you would be hard pressed to find a 4SP pilot who doesn't make use of the unparalled 150 degree torso + the 40 degree arms...

Increased twist and arm articulation is a boon to good pilots...gimping everything down to the ranges they've done serves no purpose other than making piloting boring to 'master'. There is no SIM left in this game.

[PEEFsmash]

Assaults and Heavies have too fast and too broad of torso twist. You need to give them weaknesses.

[General Taskeen]

As a side note to Twisting.

I would prefer all (fully actuated) arms to be able to fire 90 degrees while facing forward. That is how it worked in Mech Warrior 3 and Mech Warrior 4, which is actually how its supposed to work.

In Mech Warrior 3, at least, don't remember if this happened in MW4, but if one of your arms was aimed 90 degrees, any of your weapons on the opposite arm and torso automatically could not fire, so you didn't have to worry about setting up even more weapon groups. That was an incredibly, amazing touch in my opinion and was a staple for making Mech Warrior have that more immersive "simulation" feel.

Either PGI hasn't figured it out, or they haven't got to it yet. Another hurdle is including a side camera, someway, somehow, which those older engines could handle very easily.

Edited by General Taskeen, 12 October 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Mr 144]

PEEFsmash, on 12 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Assaults and Heavies have too fast and too broad of torso twist. You need to give them weaknesses.

sure....gimp the speed, not the range. I have no problem with that, but when you have the original mechs all having 40ish degrees of arm movement and 90ish degrees of torso...and the newer mechs all having 20ish degrees of sway with poor arm hardpoints....that's a poor balancing choice that only effects some of the class.

@General Taskeen Yep MW3...perfect arm use imo. The thing that will really blow your mind...is with a MW3 arm system, even the Awesome could be nice, as it's relatively plywood shaped, so twisting and pointing 90 degrees off woulf increase it's survivability 10 fold

Edited by Mr 144, 12 October 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Mech efficiencies are partly to blame. The majority of them increase the mech's mobility, which helps to bolster the weaknesses of the heavier classes, while doing little to help the lighter classes (twist speed, for instance, is useless on any light, or the Cicada, since they already turn faster than the camera, assuming you're using a reasonable sensitivity).

Take an Atlas, for instance. You would think it would be heavily armed and armoured, with limited mobility, but with Elite efficiencies, it can aim its torso 96 degrees, and its arms 136 degrees to either side, while turning 20% faster than normal.

[Alistair Winter]

Yeah, we definitely need to nerf the Catapult's torso twist. It's far too OP at the moment, which is why we're only seeing Catapults and almost no Jagermechs or Cataphracts.

[MadCat02]

Tynan, on 12 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Compared the larger balance issues this is relatively minor, but I'm wondering what other people think.

Generally speaking, the game as it stands seems to pretty heavily favor high, fixed hardpoints--Stalkers, Jags, Cats (K2s anyway) over low-slung arm mounted weapons. Theoretically, the actuators on the arms allowing for a greater range of movement should be the tradeoff, but by and large that doesn't seem to be the case.

What it comes down to, I think, is that most fixed-arm mechs simply have to great a range of torso twist movement. Stalkers have always felt like the exception, with some nice fat blind spots, but most of the others don't seem to pay quite enough of a price (IMO anyway) for their otherwise optimal weapon mounting (especially catapults, those things are like owls).

Thoughts?

Shooting from the cover is a huge aspect of this game . Low armed mech without jump jets kinda stuck in mindles skirmish .

Perhaps low armed mechs could have faster torso twist.

As far as i know PGU dosen't give a damm on this issue .

Edited by MadCat02, 12 October 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Mr 144]

ANY mech that has no JJ capability, no ECM cpability, and articulated arms......should have AT BARE MINIMUM 90 degree torso + 40 degree arms. The problem of course, is they are in a rut of releasing JJ mechs like candy on halloween.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The only advantage of the Shadow Hawk is that shoulder mounted ballistic slot. When hill humping only that and the head will show. of course it also has JJs.

[Tynan]

I wasn't trying to pick on any particular 'mech (catapult's just the obvious high twist range), I was just thinking that given the generally low / terrible placement that articulated arm 'mechs need to have something going for them. When no arm / lock arm mechs can twist as far as the arms can reach on other mechs, what's the point?

Again, I realize this is a relatively minor issue, but there's a reason that the preferred mech-of-the-moment is almost always something with high hardpoints (poptarts excepted).

[RandomLurker]

General Taskeen, on 12 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

In Mech Warrior 3, at least, don't remember if this happened in MW4, but if one of your arms was aimed 90 degrees, any of your weapons on the opposite arm and torso automatically could not fire, so you didn't have to worry about setting up even more weapon groups. That was an incredibly, amazing touch in my opinion and was a staple for making Mech Warrior have that more immersive "simulation" feel.

You remember correctly. I used to laugh joyously at people that mocked my Nova (which couldn't twist, if you remember) and tried to flank me for an easy win, only to get a pile of MLasers in the face as they didn't bother to evade.

[OneEyed Jack]

PEEFsmash, on 12 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Assaults and Heavies have too fast and too broad of torso twist. You need to give them weaknesses.

Ignore PEEF. He won't be happy until anything bigger than a Light is unable to do anything but stand there and wait for him to blow through their backs once he's locked on.

Front line combat units able to defend themselves? Pish posh!

[PEEFsmash]

OneEyed Jack, on 12 October 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Ignore PEEF. He won't be happy until anything bigger than a Light is unable to do anything but stand there and wait for him to blow through their backs once he's locked on.

Front line combat units able to defend themselves? Pish posh!

It's called Role Warfare. No mech should be able to do it all. Highlanders can sit at base and do it all. They can be the best snipers, best fire support, best brawlers, best tanks, and they can 1v1 every single other mech in the game. That's wrong.

I think that isolated assaults should lose a 1v1 against a light. They should lose isolated against a medium as well. They are huge weapon platforms for dishing out damage at range or up close against other big mechs, and absorbing tons of damage. Assaults shouldn't also be so damn fast and mobile regarding their turn speed. Assaults shouldn't be the best at EVERYTHING that is mandatory in this game. (Scouting and capping and spotting are NOT mandatory activities, because you can choose to simply camp base with 12 highlanders).

Edited by PEEFsmash, 12 October 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Mr 144]

PEEFsmash, on 12 October 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

It's called Role Warfare. No mech should be able to do it all. Highlanders can sit at base and do it all. They can be the best snipers, best fire support, best brawlers, best tanks, and they can 1v1 every single other mech in the game. That's wrong.

I think that isolated assaults should lose a 1v1 against a light. They should lose isolated against a medium as well. They are huge weapon platforms for dishing out damage at range or up close against other big mechs, and absorbing tons of damage. Assaults shouldn't also be so damn fast and mobile regarding their turn speed. Assaults shouldn't be the best at EVERYTHING that is mandatory in this game. (Scouting and capping and spotting are NOT mandatory activities, because you can choose to simply camp base with 12 highlanders).

while I'm not disagreeing with you, I would really like a reply.

Why do you think that piloting skills should be nerfed for heavier chassis? Twist and arm-snap speed I can understand as a balancing factor, but complete range of motion? This is what I cannot agree with. While tonnage vs tonnage may need balancing, going your way would only create a progression where piloting skill is only reserved for lights. Reduced twist/articulation speed based on tonnage would enable 'good' pilots in every class.

[PEEFsmash]

Mr 144, on 12 October 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

while I'm not disagreeing with you, I would really like a reply.

Why do you think that piloting skills should be nerfed for heavier chassis? Twist and arm-snap speed I can understand as a balancing factor, but complete range of motion? This is what I cannot agree with. While tonnage vs tonnage may need balancing, going your way would only create a progression where piloting skill is only reserved for lights. Reduced twist/articulation speed based on tonnage would enable 'good' pilots in every class.

I don't know exactly what you're saying. I'm not saying that piloting skill should be "nerfed." Twist and arm speed are the only two things I recommended. I think that twist RANGE for assaults is too much too, but that's the extent of it. Just like everyone is quick to say, "oh lights are supposed to scout and run around and...look at things" I say that Assaults are supposed to be absorbing and putting out damage at the things in front of them. They shouldn't also be so fast and maneuverable to be able to deal with every issue that might come their way, WHICH THEY CAN RIGHT NOW contrary to the popular forumbad belief. Top Highlander pilots are afraid of NOTHING other than themselves. Top Stalker pilots have a similar view, considering only other Stalkers and Highlanders...maybe 3Ds a serious threat. None of these guys fear a light mech picking a fight, not even an absolute top-tier light. That's bad for the game. Assaults shouldn't be for that. They should not be "do it all" mechs. The first step to limiting it is to limiting their twist abilities, both twist range and twist speed. Arm articulation rate is also so unbelievably fast on these 90-100 tonners that it blows the mind.

Want to give use to Medium mechs? Follow my proposed changes that make isolated Assaults weak to lights, and mediums can have a legitimate role protecting the slow, immobile, but powerful Assaults against Lights. Right now? You're better off in a Highlander and protecting yourself by 1-shotting any light that comes near.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 12 October 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Ghogiel]

So the general consensus seems to be nerf lights and assaults, buff mediums and then everyone can just take heavies.

gg

[Mr 144]

PEEFsmash, on 12 October 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

......

I agree with you only so far. Assaults vs. Lights is an easy kill for any 'good' assault pilot. I don't agree with a need for range of motion being arbitrarily limited on new mechs while old mechs still have full movement. This creates a skill-less newb enviornment for heavier chassis.

There is no reason why assault mechs cannot be walking turrets with large ranges of motion...both arms and torso. The speed at which they react is the sole mitigating factor in the ability to fend off lights, not the range of articulation. As long as the speed is slow enough to give lights the upper hand in close quarter enviornments, your 'goal' is achieved. Limiting range of motion only reduces the heavier classes into skinned standardized FPS shooters and looses the 'mech' alure imo.

Giving back the original range of motion heavies and assaults had, while decreasing speed serves two purposes. It gives llights and fast mediums a large advantage against them, as targeting them proves extremely difficult with both pilots being skilled. The increased range of movement gives the heavier chassis better abilities to continue trudging along while being picked apart (as opposed to the standard back against a wall mentality)....the heavier still looses to the lighter in isolation, but the heavier also has an ability to attempt regrouping or retreat.

I know you don't run heavies or assaults often, but arms are a complete joke on them. It's not about a 'buff'...it's about tweaking them back into their role...slow, high firepower, high armored, walking turrets. How is range of movement OP against lights if the tracking speed does not allow reliable targeting?

Stop with the nerf everything heavy, and throw the 'good' assault pilots a bone....something they can actually enjoy piloting...even if they can be picked apart by lighter chassis.

Edited by Mr 144, 12 October 2013 - 05:21 PM.