40 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

I have well over 4,000 drops. You could count on one hand the amount of times I've ever questioned whether or not a player was hacking, and I have never been able to definitively say that they were hacking.

The devs have done a fine job handling the troublemakers.

In my opinion, 99/100 times, the "Aimbots" that people are complaining about can be attributed to skill, knowledge, and/or dumb luck.

[Red Jenny]

This discussion has been there in every remotely pvp game. While there might be a possible demand for anti cheat tools the reasoning wheather there is a need for it is rather complex. What would you call a possible hack in this game?

- wall hack:

what would be the possible reason behind having such a thing. The advantage would be negligible in the current state of the game as far as matchmaking is concerned

- aim bot:

Aim Bot accusations are most likely the most common thing in any game that involves shooting pvp in any form. Yet most of them are false. How do I know? I have played dozens of p2p and f2p games; And while I generally suck at them there are people out there who have insane hand eye coordination and a very good movement memory. So the reasoning here would be: I cannot do it, so I cannot imagine some else can do it.

- "lag hack"

A lag hack in my terminology is a hack that abuses the way a game handles client side lag. For example if you fail to send a package with position, movement fire aim etc. the game just asumes everything stayed the same and gives out that information to the other clients until you correct your data by sending your new data which might render any shot taken at you a miss. Detecting and diversing this from normal lag is kind of impossible so even if you Q.Q report the player there will be messurement to validate your claim.

- bypassing the games internal management (infinit ammo, rocket fuel etc)

This kind of hacks can accure everywhere a server relies on data given out by the game clients without checking it itself. Most likely not the case in MWO

I personally have never ever suspected someone in this game a cheater. No matter how I bad I was slaughtered and in my honest opinion a "report player" button does a game more harm than it benefits it. Have you ever read those "report xyz please" chat messages in LoL, WoT and so on?

People are clicking those buttons every time someone wipes the floor with them. EVERY TIME. What does it do? It puts pointless workload on the support staff:

report -> investigate -> falsify -> rinse and repeat

Classic example: Use an autoloader in WoT 1 out of 3 games: QQ you have rate of fire hack

[Modo44]

The game has an anti-cheat system -- the servers. The only feature really missing, is an easy way to report griefing (not just cheating) in-game. However, that won't get added until PGI grows enough to support a large enough, uh, support staff for the increased traffic such functionality would generate.

If you're talking about spyware on my system, please ****** off now. It is my main reason for not playing some popular multiplayer games. I have to have enough **** installed for work.

Edit: Wow, "b u g g e r" is apparently an offensive word in this part of the Internet. Canadians be trippin'.

Edited by Modo44, 15 October 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[Ghogiel]

T3PeS, on 15 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

- wall hack:

what would be the possible reason behind having such a thing. The advantage would be negligible in the current state of the game as far as matchmaking is concerned

It definitely seems plausible that it's possible to have a program that can read packet info and give enemy locations though. Though the server will probably never allow players to be walking through walls themselves unless the glitch out in the physics from a bug, in which case they are probably stuck. Collision seems to be server auth as well. Back when you were allowed to modify game files you could mess with the maps and art assets, you would still collide with what are the buildings, even though you changed the map on your client and couldn't see them. I doubt you can ever really remove them or shoot through them.

Quote

- aim bot:

Aim Bot accusations are most likely the most common thing in any game that involves shooting pvp in any form. Yet most of them are false. How do I know? I have played dozens of p2p and f2p games; And while I generally suck at them there are people out there who have insane hand eye coordination and a very good movement memory. So the reasoning here would be: I cannot do it, so I cannot imagine some else can do it.

The only aimbot ever purported to work was on lasers for obvious reasons. and due to lagshield back then, it hardly functioned XD.

I ONCE saw an atlas use LLs to headshot 4 players in a row. 2 being other atlases LOL.

That is the only time in 10000 matches I have ever seen anything remotely WTF.

Quote

- "lag hack"

server auth.

Lagging yourself will never give you an advantage as lag cuts you off from the servers sim and while people can shoot you, your simulation is not updated correctly, and while the servers is always correct, all other clients are getting your updated correct position, but you would be essentially shooting their ghosts (no HSR still compares to servers sim and rejects impossible things) while waiting for the server to move you to the correct position, it'll probably teleport you to your correct position XD. And then update the damage you have taken from all the other players.

I am sure everyone has experienced a lag issue where you freeze up for 10seconds then you just end up in the mech destroyed screen. So yeah that one don't work at all.

Quote

- bypassing the games internal management (infinit ammo, rocket fuel etc)

impossible in MWO as pretty much everything important is server auth. You can never fire ppcs faster, have no heat, infinite ammo or anything like that. You can't even zoom or target a fricking enemy as those actions are server auth too. Have at the game files all you want and make PPCs do 100 damage each and give yourself infinite JJs. Those XMLs are contained on the servers sim and will override your clients every time.

[FinsT]

Jents,

in my very humble opinion, you are completely free not to read the text wall the 1st post is. I even made a poll option with much respect for this choice you jents might want to make. I do respect your time.

Now please, do respect mine. Which means, if you did NOT read 1st post of the topic in its entirety, - then please do NOT make any judgements about feature i am suggesting. You chose not to read the text wall? Ok. But this means, you also chose not to have a right to judge said text wall. Seriously.

Now, few examples of what i mean.

Syllogy, on 15 October 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

...
In my opinion, 99/100 times, the "Aimbots" that people are complaining about can be attributed to skill, knowledge, and/or dumb luck.

Your non-argumentated opinion is not finding a confirmation in this topic. And, i fail to see how it relates to cheaters' cases i and some other people described in this topic, - sometimes in detail. 1st post, part 2 -> "case 1" - is describing a case which cannot be attributed to skill, knowledge, and/or dumb luck. As do some of the comments which other jentlemen have made in this topic.

T3PeS, on 15 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

... What would you call a possible hack in this game?
...
People are clicking those buttons every time someone wipes the floor with them. EVERY TIME. ...

1. Read part 2 of the 1st post in this topic, and you'll know what. It's described there in much detail, and it's my in-game, personal and recent experience.
2. Before making a comment which seemingly does some critics to the feature suggestion i made, - you'd do good to realize that the button i suggest can NOT be used when someone wipes a floor with 'em. It'll be totally impossible. Why? Details in the 1st topic, part 1. Read it, yes?

Ghogiel, on 15 October 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

...
The only aimbot ever purported to work was on lasers for obvious reasons. and due to lagshield back then, it hardly functioned XD.
...

Hello? Hello!? Do you doubt the detailed, 1st-hand testimony i bring in part 2 of the 1st post of this topic - in other words, is "case 1" and "case 2" i described in detail be not "purportful" enough for you? Or, perhaps, you didn't read it? Again, you have complete right not to read anything; but man, just imagine how YOU are presenting yourself to me, saying what you just said, - given what i SAW myself, in the game, as described by case 1 and case 2 of the 1st post (part 2). Or better, i'll tell you straight: you look funny to me saying what you just said. Sorry, but it's true!.. ><

This is the LAST time i point out to any commenters that before judging a suggested feature, it is much needed to at least learn WHAT is actually suggested, - with all significant details. If one wants not to look funny... or worse, while commenting.

Best wishes, jents.

Edited by FinsT, 15 October 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Ghogiel]

FinsT, on 15 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Hello? Hello!? Do you doubt the detailed, 1st-hand testimony i bring in part 2 of the 1st post of this topic

Yes. This is the internet after all.


Video or it didn't happen.

[FinsT]

Oh! I definitely didn't expect you'd be so strict about this... Because if i'd invent the thing in all that detail - what exactly would be my reason to do so? Can't see any. Besides, it took several hours to write and correct the 1st post of the topic, and quite some more time reading people's comments and adressing them. I hate cheaters quite much, and this is the driving force; but if i've seen none, then why would i spent all the time here?

Unfortunately, i do not have video capture software installed on my PC. But, if this is what it'd take to convince some folks - like, you, - i don't mind installing such software and using it if/when i see next cheater in the game. I'll have to find it 1st, though. Can you suggest a good free one? It could possibly help me to reduce/eliminate the search. Note, fraps upsets my (rather strict) antivirus software with some of its functions last time i tried it (~year ago), so fraps won't do.

Edited by FinsT, 16 October 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Ghogiel]

FinsT, on 16 October 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

Can you suggest a good free one?

arguably better than fraps>

http://www.bandicam.com/downloads/


The reason why I require at least video evidence is you'd be the first person to ever capture video of someone cheating in MWO. I am very skeptical of such claims. Every other client side auth game out there, from CSS and COD have videos of cheaters, but never seen any for MWO, don't think I have ever seen video of it done in any server auth game if I think about it.

[FinsT]

Thanks! I'll give it a good close look.

Oh, and one of posters in this very topic said he has a video of a cheater in MWO. May be try to PM him or something if you're curious? If he'd put the video he got on youtube and put a link here or something like that, i'd surely be interested to see it, too.

[Ghogiel]

I have a video of bigfoot kissing the lochness monster. This is the internet remember.

He shouldn't link it on the forum, as it breaks ToS of the forum for various reasons.

He should upload it to youtube with the title of Mechwarrior online cheat, or aimbot, hack etc. And tag it too. Which will make it easy to find amoungt the 4 other videos that are either blatant virus/scams or just actual MWO trailer video from last year with a misleading title LOL.

[FinsT]

Ah, yes, how SILLY of me not to think about ToS. Yep, i can see how such a link would clearly be unwelcome in this forum, to say the least. My apologies! ><

Oh, if we talk internet videos, - there is one with a small UFO "docked" to a skyscraper. Very real. Shot from a hovering in place chopper some ~200 meters from said skyscraper. For a couple seconds, UFO stays "docked", then moves out, quickly getting high speed, passes very close to the chopper - a few meters, - and zips away. Voices, noise, camera, emotions, visual - all very real. As real as it is very hard, if at all possible, to spot anything which would hint it's a masterpiece of special effects (which i know it is).

So what? I wasn't talking about "the internet" when i said that there is a guy who said he has a video of a cheater in MWO. Because i was talking about the particular person, - and one which sounds reasonable enough that there are some chances that he might actually be spot on and correct.

[Ghogiel]

FinsT, on 16 October 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

So what? I wasn't talking about "the internet" when i said that there is a guy who said he has a video of a cheater in MWO. Because i was talking about the particular person, - and one which sounds reasonable enough that there are some chances that he might actually be spot on and correct.

Yet has provided zero evidence to back up his claims.

And he said ping spoofing, like lol really?

[Escef]

FinsT, on 14 October 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

- introducing a hidden feature into match maker, which would force match maker to spend a solid time (say, as much as 3 minutes) trying to put the cheater into a match which only has other people with "PGI cheater score" being equal-or-higher than 1.0. This will result in two effects for the cheater: 1st, substantially slower search for games (he's cheating the game, so why should we care?), and 2nd, isolating cheaters much to themselves (they wanna cheat? Let them HAVE the same from their own kind in return!). For community, this will result in possibly massively less cheaters present in regular games, which is mightily good;

So, make cheaters feel that they really DO have to cheat to compete? Yeah, not liking that, it just makes them feel their cheating is justified. They're going to think everyone else is doing it, and a lot of the people they play with will be cheating because you are grouping all the cheaters together.

[FinsT]

IRT Ghogiel:

He said, yes. I guess he possibly meant not ping packets themselves, but some sort of actions' delays calculations being somehow spoofed. In general, the main conceptual problem with this sort of hacks is, - as far as i can tell, - that the server can't "run" the game all by itself, since it needs players' inputs (obviously), and since internet connection is never precise - there is always some fluctuations of latency for vast majority of game clients, - the server has to compensate for this, using procedures which have some sort of "predictive power". Such procedures are created, typically, having humanly possible input of controls in the game's client. By sending humanly impossible inputs of specific designs, or humanly possible but so unusual that developers didn't expect 'em to happen, - it might be possible to make one quite unhittable, for example.

This might actually be a reason behind the fact that i can always kill a spider in testing grounds with 2 hits to the front torso, but was unable to kill a spider with dual AC/20 alpha into his back torso, while it was running some ~40 meters ahead of my jager (he didn't notice me going in while taking a turn into a narrow path between two buildings in River city map) - and some other similar cases. By the way, there is a video, and it was linked on this forum (ToS violation or not), in which an AC/20 shot visibly hits a spider (there is clearly visible explosion), but his armor doesn't take a dent from it - despite clearly taking damage out of some of laser fire shortly before and after. I commented in the topic mentioning it, but at the time was primarily thinking about possible glitches with Spider's hitboxes.

Should i put a link, or would you just use search?



IRT Escef:
A good point! Indeed, i didn't think about this. But then, what would you propose? To let them rampage the general population?

Tough situation... Any ideas?

Edited by FinsT, 16 October 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[bloodnor]

all hit detection is server side so cheating is not really possible
. with the added benefit of bad hitboxes people assume the worst .

tired of seeing the cheating card pulled out by people who cant take to loose

Edited by bloodnor, 16 October 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[Ghogiel]

FinsT, on 16 October 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

IRT Ghogiel:

He said, yes. I guess he possibly meant not ping packets themselves, but some sort of actions' delays calculations being somehow spoofed. In general, the main conceptual problem with this sort of hacks is, - as far as i can tell, - that the server can't "run" the game all by itself, since it needs players' inputs (obviously), and since internet connection is never precise - there is always some fluctuations of latency for vast majority of game clients, - the server has to compensate for this, using procedures which have some sort of "predictive power". Such procedures are created, typically, having humanly possible input of controls in the game's client. By sending humanly impossible inputs of specific designs, or humanly possible but so unusual that developers didn't expect 'em to happen, - it might be possible to make one quite unhittable, for example.

This might actually be a reason behind the fact that i can always kill a spider in testing grounds with 2 hits to the front torso, but was unable to kill a spider with dual AC/20 alpha into his back torso, while it was running some ~40 meters ahead of my jager (he didn't notice me going in while taking a turn into a narrow path between two buildings in River city map) - and some other similar cases. By the way, there is a video, and it was linked on this forum (ToS violation or not), in which an AC/20 shot visibly hits a spider (there is clearly visible explosion), but his armor doesn't take a dent from it - despite clearly taking damage out of some of laser fire shortly before and after. I commented in the topic mentioning it, but at the time was primarily thinking about possible glitches with Spider's hitboxes.

Should i put a link, or would you just use search?

Not necessary because I have first hand experience every day and video I have recorded demonstrating hit detection issues in MWO.




There is no cheating going on, this is a desyncing error from the server of some sort. Possibly due to the server taking a dump or network issues. It was filmed the weekend where many players across the board were reporting hit detection issues.

I could make an hour long montage of hit detection issues in MWO. But still no cheats.

[FinsT]

I hope you guys are right, and it's just desync on the server being a result of some internal errors - and not a desync which is provoked or caused externally.

IRT bloodnor: what makes you think i "pull the cheating card" because "i can't take to loose"? Me, i share this view:
- " Most players … do not like losing, and consider defeat as something shameful. This is a wrong attitude. Those who wish to perfect themselves must regard their losses as lessons and learn from them what sorts of things to avoid in the future. "

This was said by Jose Raul Capablanca, world champion in chess - in other words, one very smart guy. And i agree with him - it is wrong to be ashamed about losing; in fact, it makes sense to appreciate being defeated, since it teaches me something new every time - and winning often doesn't.

Edited by FinsT, 16 October 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[FinsT]

I have just found this moderator's post. It's recent, too. I was not aware about this strict position of this forum's staff towards the subject. It much surprised me, but, of course, i am to follow regulations anyways.

Sigh...

Accordingly, i'll cease any further discussion in here for now, unless (and if) it would be specifically told by the staff that i could continue with it. As the topic's creator, i express prior and complete agreement with whatever decision would be taken by moderators or PGI staff towards this topic (if any) - such as possibly closing it, or deleting it or parts of it, or restricting access to it to only PGI accounts, or any other action to the topic, which forum and/or PGI staff would need to do.

I only hope that whatever would possibly be done, the information in this topic would remain available for PGI staff who is adressing such issues; perhaps some bits of 1st post and/or further discussion, or perhaps poll results, would be useful in the game's development.

Edited by FinsT, 16 October 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Heffay, on 14 October 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

What is wrong with emailing support@mwomercs.com if you run across someone who you suspect is cheating?

I think an ingame function for it might be neat. Nothing elaborate. PGI can figure out its own metrics.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Quote

I could see cheater button being abused quite a bit....

Quote

False positives can destroy your efficiency though.

Duh, guys. Literally the only difference between what we have now and an in-game button as far as preventing false positives is that reporting via email is a colossal pain that most people don't go through the trouble of even for people who are actually misbehaving. There's a reason basically every other game has in-game reporting, usually with a number of pre-defined options (eg "profanity," "cheating," "spamming").

For that matter, the very forums we post on right now have a report button right on every single post, yet we don't have a huge problem with people getting banned because someone threw a tantrum and reported another poster for having a different opinion. Why do you suppose this is?

It's because the report system isn't hooked directly to a ban function. That would be dumb. Rather, the reports flag users for review by a human being, who uses the forum's built-in tools to go to the post the provoked the report, read the post in context, see the user's other posts to see if somebody just had a bad day, and check the reportee's "rap sheet" to check for past encounters with "the law."

Surprise surprise, other games use a similar system. The game logs data for all matches played by everybody, and if a player is reported the admins/GMs can check the log around the time of the report and SEE if the reported person TK'd, spewed obscenities into chat, or whatever else.

The problems of balancing true positives vs false positives and of minimizing work for staff can both be addressed using a tunable heuristic that doesn't flag a player for review until he/she accumulates some number of reports per matches played. That last part is key. Getting reported 15 times wouldn't get you flagged if in that time you'd played 68k matches. It would if you'd played 5. The exact numbers could be whatever the devs wanted.

Players falsely reporting other players can be addressed by tracking reports originating from a player that don't result in disciplinary action (ie false positives) and using a similar heuristic to take a guess--again erring on the side of caution--at who is doing it on purpose.

Detecting hacks directly is another ball game.