32 replies to this topic

[Cragger]

Lately having taken a break from World of Tanks to play MWO during the x2 weekend and PGI finally fixing the Avast issue I've noticed something that has puzzled me. A fundamental difference in how the public game players act in MWO compared to World of Tanks.

In World of Tanks at the beginning of a game most of the time the players fairly evenly distribute themselves around the map. Sometimes they do not and usually pay the price in a defeat for no doing so but isn't common.

However, here in MWO it is almost standard that every game I will see almost all the players on my team (I don't group up much and just do a random battle now and then among other things) will almost always clump up into one huge ball all following the first player to leave the spawn. And then the other team when composed of grouped lances will more evenly distribute themselves into a even battle line pin and envelope the big ball of fail and then proceed to tear them apart.

Clumping up into on huge ball is a serious tactical error in any situation because when you do so you easily allow a opposing force to encircle you and hit you from all directions while you at the same time cannot effectively return fire as your own forces are blocking each other's line of fire.

When MWO first when public back in 8 v 8 players usually spread out more and didn't over concentrate into one area yet now in 12 v 12 players not immediately going into the Big Ball of Defeat is extremely rare. What has changed that has both caused and continued to reinforce this behavior among non grouped players in matches?

At a fundamental level the players of MWO and the players of WoT are presented with the same tactical situation. Yet in one they generally instinctively make the correct tactical choice of covering the flanks and making a flexible battle line yet in the other, this game, the instinctive crowd mentality is to clump into a big ball or column a very poor tactical choice for an engagement.

If you have any insight as to what maybe within MWO is the source of this behavior vs. WoT then please do speak up as it can only help the game community, help new players, and perhaps even help PGI to possibly make some adjustments to break this self defeating pattern.

[Hex Pallett]

The first mistake you made is comparing WoT with MWO. They are COMPLETELY different. I can guarantee you that if you use any WoT tactic in MWO, you'r team will be CONSUMED one by one.

Also, grouping is the most basic tactic known by any MWO player. A well coordinated group will know how to focus fire using different weapon combinations and locations to chew through targets one after another. There should be reasonable distance between team members to allow maneuvering and concentrating different lines of fire, but "evenly distributed around the map"??

Death. The only possible result is your team will one after another enter the other team's lance's field of view, ant get totally minced by concentrated fire.





With that said, it is not uncommon to see noobsquads snuggling so tightly together that no one can fire without shooting teammates in the back, thus get consumed in whole. But that's just skills.

Edited by Helmstif, 14 October 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

Helmstif, on 14 October 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

The first mistake you made is comparing WoT with MWO. They are COMPLETELY different. I can guarantee you that if you use any WoT tactic in MWO, you'r team will be CONSUMED one by one.

Also, grouping is the most basic tactic known by any MWO player. A well coordinated group will know how to focus fire using different weapon combinations and locations to chew through targets one after another. There should be reasonable distance between team members to allow maneuvering and concentrating different lines of fire, but "evenly distributed around the map"??

Death.

The problem is your average dumbpubbie lacks the high level thought processes required to differentiate between "a group" and "a ball of useless mechs that can't do anything because everyone is too close together to be able to respond to anything that happens that isn't in the same ******* grid square"

[Cragger]

Helmstif, on 14 October 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

The first mistake you made is comparing WoT with MWO. They are COMPLETELY different. I can guarantee you that if you use any WoT tactic in MWO, you'r team will be CONSUMED one by one.

Also, grouping is the most basic tactic known by any MWO player. A well coordinated group will know how to focus fire using different weapon combinations and locations to chew through targets one after another. There should be reasonable distance between team members to allow maneuvering and concentrating different lines of fire, but "evenly distributed around the map"??

Death. The only possible result is your team will one after another enter the other team's lance's field of view, ant get totally minced by concentrated fire.





With that said, it is not uncommon to see noobsquads snuggling so tightly together that no one can fire without shooting teammates in the back, thus get consumed in whole. But that's just skills.

I am not comparing the games I am comparing the players instinctive behavior when presented with extremely similar situations.

World of Tanks and Mechwarrior online are both two teams in vehicles operating on a relatively 2 dimension field of battle set in a first person real time shooter style. The weapons have changed, the vehicles have changed, and the damage system has changed but they are far more similiar in base game play then you wish to admit.

In both maximizing the guns in play on targets with the minimal amount of guns being able to be in action against you is clear way to take down your opponents fast then they can take your team down. A player in a tank or a mech can only fire on one target at a time and if you position yourself and your team into a place were you are blocking each other's fire and allowing the other team to freely move around then you are doing that job for the enemy.

Yet for some reason instinctively players in WoT know leaving 2/3rds of the map uncovered is a bad idea and move to prevent that. Yet in MWO players congregate into one big blob leaving most of the map uncovered. I am curious to why this is.

Edited by Cragger, 14 October 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[627]

Maybe that tight grouping appears because of the maps... you see this often in frozen or river city because those "streets" are really narrow and no one wants to get lost so they stay together. you don't see this that much on the larger, more open maps.

But what you see is "takin mobile cover" aka hiding behind a friendly assault. and if that thing stops, you run into it.

[Sephlock]

The trouble is that no one wants to be the first one to leave the group, not knowing if anyone will follow or if they'll just get picked off.

[FerrolupisXIII]

it's easy to move off as a lance and flank. though sometimes your other 8 get rolled by the aforementioned Deathball. though usualy my mates and i are good enough to hold up the enemy team long enough on our own if the opposite happens, and hopefully the rest of the team gets a nice flank in. *shrug*

[Darth Futuza]

Sephlock, on 14 October 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

The trouble is that no one wants to be the first one to leave the group, not knowing if anyone will follow or if they'll just get picked off.

This is a large majority of the problem. When you're playing with random players you can't trust them to follow orders from the Commander or Lance Leader. Most players also seem to care more about kills/death ratio then actually winning the match...which is sad. Perhaps PGI should reward capping more.

Going out alone by yourself though is suicide, what should be happening is mech's in a lance grouping together for mutual protection, while the team as a whole remains spread out.

[Sephlock]

What we need is a mech tugboat cable.

[Sephlock]

Sephlock, on 15 October 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

What we need is a mech tugboat cable.

Also, Locusts and Spiders should be able to mount them facing rearward.

[LQuinze]

As above posters have noted, the underlying mechanics of both games are not the same! There are four things that contribute to this:

1. Aiming mechanics. Unlike WoT, 'mechs do not need to come to a halt and stabilize their aim. A 'mech on the move fires as accurately as a 'mech that is stationary, so long as the pilot compensates for the motion. In WoT, by contrast, tanks that fire on the move have their shots deviate slightly randomly.

This has several results. Firstly, a group of 'mechs moving together can instantly annihilate any target of opportunity that pops up. Conversely, a group of clumped tanks cannot be guaranteed to hit a single lone scout that spots them from long range without slowing down to tighten their aim. As a result, it's a far better strategy to disperse - if one player spots an enemy, the rest of the team can attack from concealed positons. This also leads into #2 and #3.

2. Profiles. Tanks are simply more easily concealed and maps thus have more opportunities for cover. A 'mech - especially large 'mechs - stick out conspicuously, and benefit more from safety in numbers and destroying the enemy before taking damage.

3. Range. Engagement ranges are relatively longer in WoT. Yes, penetration is better close in, but tank guns cover relatively greater distance, which means players can support each other even while relatively dispersed. Conversely, fewer weapons in MWO have any sort of significant range.

4. Map design. MWO has many more vertical features with every map that break up lines of sight. As a result, it's hard to lend mutual support to team-mates when dispersed.

[TripleEhBeef]

Speed is also a factor. Mechs can range from 50 kph assaults to lights running over 140. Anything that isn't an ECM light will get hunted down and killed if it runs off on its own too far from friendlies. Fast mediums can take point, but even they shouldn't get too far ahead of the main group. Heavies and assaults do work best as a big rolling ball of death concentrating their fire, with lights and mediums peeling off to flank, snipe, and distract here and there.

Of course, the other extreme is when some friendly mech is humping my leg like an overexcited puppy while I'm trying to run backwards to dodge sniper fire.

[Charons Little Helper]

Darth Futuza, on 15 October 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

This is a large majority of the problem. When you're playing with random players you can't trust them to follow orders from the Commander or Lance Leader. Most players also seem to care more about kills/death ratio then actually winning the match...which is sad. Perhaps PGI should reward capping more.

I think that that would be fixed by 80-90% of team rewards being shared equally, and a good chunk just for achieving victory. That way people would care more about winning for the team and be willing to take supporting roles instead of just grinding as fast as they can.

[SuomiWarder]

The first time a newer pilot gets off alone and swarmed by 2 or 3 enemy mechs they vow never to let that happen again. And thus they stay close to the herd.

[wintersborn]

Higher numbers win.

Basically in 12 man Assault PUG's you want to roll in a tight group and all focus fire on one mech at a time, thus decreasing the other teams numbers fast. This gang r_ape effect works too well in this game and unless some one wins from playing "Cap Warrior" the steam rolling team most always wins.

Same reason why high pinpoint alpha damage builds are king, they kill fast.

Edited by wintersborn, 23 October 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Charons Little Helper, on 17 October 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I think that that would be fixed by 80-90% of team rewards being shared equally, and a good chunk just for achieving victory. That way people would care more about winning for the team and be willing to take supporting roles instead of just grinding as fast as they can.

Aye. At least we still get points for assists.

[Jon Gotham]

Cragger, on 14 October 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

In World of Tanks at the beginning of a game most of the time the players fairly evenly distribute themselves around the map. Sometimes they do not and usually pay the price in a defeat for no doing so but isn't common.

I was right with you until this sentence!
In actuality what happens is:
Heavies all blob up and rush to first peek a boo corner and stay there the entire match. they will peek out one at a time and get whittled down slowly, whilst raging at the team for being cowards or noobs and the like:)
TDs will go to their default spot they go to everygame and just sit there passively.
Lights will suicide rush.
Meds will "try" but get roflstomped by heavies that are as fast as they are...
And arty? Due to ragewhiners they can't actually do anything anymore:)

Compare that to a MWO pug:
Heavies/Assaults all blob up and rush to camping spot in centre of map. They then usually sit there the entire game. Peeking out one at a time eating long range lolsniping shots.
Lights generally suicide spot or suicide basecap....
Mediums try but are usually at the mercy of their own heavies/assaults not moving to soak up fire so they can actually flank...
Not that much different really.....

But one major difference is MWO not made by the arrogant/ignorant WG. For which I am deeply thankful^^

Helmstif, on 14 October 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

The first mistake you made is comparing WoT with MWO. They are COMPLETELY (see above points) different. I can guarantee you that if you use any WoT tactic in MWO, you'r team will be CONSUMED one by one.

Also, grouping is the most basic tactic known by any MWO player (who likes to lose constantly). A well coordinated group will know how to focus fire using different weapon combinations and locations to chew through targets one after another. There should be reasonable distance between team members to allow maneuvering and concentrating different lines of fire, but "evenly distributed around the map"?? ( I think he meant in...lances....one group of four meets eight the rest....push?)

Death. The only possible result is your team will one after another enter the other team's lance's field of view, ant get totally minced by concentrated fire. (unless the other 2/3 of your team are flanking them and hitting them from behind-not just blob vs blob......)
With that said, it is not uncommon to see noobsquads snuggling so tightly together that no one can fire without shooting teammates in the back, thus get consumed in whole. But that's just skills.

PLEASE don't encourage any more blobbing........it's already poisonous to good gameplay!

[Autobot9000]

Cragger, on 14 October 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Clumping up into on huge ball is a serious tactical error in any situation because when you do so you easily allow a opposing force to encircle you and hit you from all directions while you at the same time cannot effectively return fire as your own forces are blocking each other's line of fire.

This is where you're wrong. Moving in a large group doesn't imply that you're using a specific tactical formation like a ball. People will still use cover and terrain adequately.

Also the general theme of your post is an inaccurate description of what players do in MWO. The best tactic in MWO is to use one large group for anything slow (say for example slower than 130 kph). Usually it's a good idea to have most light mechs branch out of the big group and do tasks like capping points, TAGging opponents, spotting or denying LRM usage by using ECM on the enemy group.

Why is MWO this way? Because the game modes dictate this. There simply is no advantage for splitting up as the above mentioned tactic can fully accomplish both assault and capture mode. On the other hand there are harsh disadvantages, if you do a different tactic than the one mentioned above against a group that does follow it as pointed out above by others. If PGI added game modes, where firepower was needed in several locations of the map at once forcing the ball to split into task forces, then other tactics would be used.

Edited by Autobot9000, 25 October 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Mercer Skye]

I always just figured that the huge clump of players leaving the Drop Zone were just trying to form Computron...

[Kraven Kor]

We want a firing line, we get a firing circle-like blob.

Nothing to get *mad* about, though, I'd think.