96 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

My opinion is that part of it is a result of seeing too many heavy and assault mechs. Many times we'll get dropped with no light mechs, while the enemy may have a few of them. On certain maps they can't really cap anyway because the map is small, but obviously on Therma and Alpine its available as an option.

Perhaps whenever the matchmaker can better handle tonnage matching, and tonnage maximums, maybe it will balance a bit more in that regards.

[DyDrimer]

I dont see why pugs have to be so lost. You can say"oh they need voice", or "they go off on their own" This game is pretty ***** proof. #1 stick together, #2 if its got a solid red triangle over its head and you see it taking damage its a pretty good idea to shoot that one to. I look at MWO as more MMA then boxing, your going to get beat, you are going to lose, you will never be unbeaten. Deal with it get shot, get beat up, if they are shooting you guess what they will keep shooting you so you might as well charge in get as much damage on them as you can and hope that your team is smart enough to push when they all are focusing on you. If you have played more then a day you know the maps. You know the bottle necks, you know the ambush area's, its not hard. This has to be one of the easiest games i have played, sure the mech set-up takes time, and it takes time to learn your style, but once you do its rather easy.

[Fut]

Straylight, on 16 October 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

The problem arises when your team looks like this:

Alpha Lance: AS7-D-DC, CTF-IM, CTF-4X, CN9-A©

Bravo Lance: CTF-IM, CPLT-A1©, STK-5S, HBK-4G

Charlie Lance: JM6-S, AS7-D, TBT-7M, SDR-5D

Looks familiar, don't it, puggers? The problem is this rosters lacks speed. Between the desire for moar dakka and the need to run standard engines on some 'mechs just for survivability, almost nothing in this roster is running a top-spec engine. If that team drops on, say, River, and both teams circle counter-clockwise, they're going to be halfway to the enemy base when the enemy's fast elements reaches their base, so turning around would just cost more time. This is what creates those cap races we all hate so much. And try as their might, a lone Bucket and Spider just can't be everywhere at once, and the two of them is hardly going to slow an enemy bull rush down.

This is entirely true.

The "simple" solution to this problem is to have lights actually scouting things out. Had that SDR taken the time to sprint off and locate the opposing force, the team would have known that the match was turning into a Cap-Race long before they were committed to it (ie. before they got half way to the enemy's base).

There's got to be a way to infuse simple, basic, tactics into the PUG community... the hard part is figuring out how.

[Geek Verve]

Fut, on 17 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

There's got to be a way to infuse simple, basic, tactics into the PUG community... the hard part is figuring out how.

I remember in my Battlefield 1942 days, the function keys acted as hotkeys a player could hit to communicate basic information to the rest of the team. For example, F3 would send the message, "Enemy Spotted!" to the rest of the team, and the sender's location would flash on the minimap. F2 would send "Need Reinforcements!". In some cases, a two-key sequence could be used (e.g. F2, F3 might request a specific type of reinforcements, such as LRM support in our case).

[Sadistic Savior]

Geek Verve, on 17 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I remember in my Battlefield 1942 days, the function keys acted as hotkeys a player could hit to communicate basic information to the rest of the team. For example, F3 would send the message, "Enemy Spotted!" to the rest of the team, and the sender's location would flash on the minimap. F2 would send "Need Reinforcements!". In some cases, a two-key sequence could be used (e.g. F2, F3 might request a specific type of reinforcements, such as LRM support in our case).

Yes, we need a system like that, and in it's own display so it does not get mixed in with general chat.

[Straylight]

Fut, on 17 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

The "simple" solution to this problem is to have lights actually scouting things out. Had that SDR taken the time to sprint off and locate the opposing force, the team would have known that the match was turning into a Cap-Race long before they were committed to it (ie. before they got half way to the enemy's base).

That Spider in my example roster wasn't random. That's me, and my first priority in a match is to locate the other team and start calling coordinates and types.

But then we're back to the first problem. The scouts start reporting positions... does anybody listen? Nope. The Spider is calling 6+ incoming to Kappa with the back door to Gamma wide open and the Raven reports three enemy Lights cruising up J9/J10... and ten other people lumped up in G8-H7 completely ignore it and keep plodding southwest because every single one of them is thinking "somebody else will handle it".

By the time any of them notice that Kappa and Gamma are gone (and so are the scouts, who both did everything in their power to stall the caps), they've lost the initiative and within a couple of minutes more, the match.

And the worst of it is they have no idea why.

Geek Verve, on 17 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I remember in my Battlefield 1942 days, the function keys acted as hotkeys a player could hit to communicate basic information to the rest of the team. For example, F3 would send the message, "Enemy Spotted!" to the rest of the team, and the sender's location would flash on the minimap. F2 would send "Need Reinforcements!". In some cases, a two-key sequence could be used (e.g. F2, F3 might request a specific type of reinforcements, such as LRM support in our case).

I've been advocating a quick-chat system like Tribes VGS since closed beta. It would be immensely helpful to groups that aren't on voice. I also wish we had a way to "ping" the map and put a marker on other people's map/HUD.

[Kjudoon]

Tooooonpie, on 15 October 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Every PUG i've been put in, every single last bloody one we always lose on caps - I look at places geting capped, I type in chat, heck even spam it in chat so people actually see it since I understand its hard to notice it when fighting.

But seriously, its as if these people in PUGS don't actually understand that if the base is being capped, or we are down 4 caps to our 1, then we are going to lose - Its like playing with blind mentally handicapped children with a part of the brain that doesn't comprehend basic thought

What the heck is going on? Am I just unlucky, in EOL hell, what?

Quit playing Assault. Solves a lot of problems there. In conquest, the tards go off and die at Theta and you might have a better chance capping to victory with a light mech. But getting PuGs to avoid the PuG Zapper at Mount Derp on Terra Derpa is like herding cats with catnip and a squirt bottle. So get used to it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 October 2013 - 07:47 PM.

[Demogarose]

Kjudoon, on 17 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Terra Derpa

i lol'd. hard.

stealing this, hope you dont mind

[JuiceKeeper]

i think its 50/50 sometimes they listen and then it works like charm but sometimes when you even take command give separate orders to every lance they do their own. At that point its allways just looking what kind of luck factor you have on your side.

[Philatrocius]

well.
command needs trust in capability.
(all too often people have got no ****ing clue what they're doing)
that trust has to be earned, which simply isnt possible in most random drops.
of course, over time i come to know certain players, and some of them are good.
but still, the trust problem remains.

i however follow commands if given via the command interface.
if they come via chat i take them as suggestions, since 70% of what is said there is tactically... unsound, to stay polite.

but if you want a team that follows lead, get into a company and earn the trust you need.
i see no other way.

[edit]
well, i have to correct myself: if i get the impression youre up to the task ill do what you say. to the letter
so say something right at start that makes me trust your experience.
DONT expect me to follow just because you said/typed so.
[/edit]

Edited by Philatrocius, 20 October 2013 - 02:25 AM.

[Straylight]

Philatrocius, on 20 October 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

[edit]
well, i have to correct myself: if i get the impression youre up to the task ill do what you say. to the letter
so say something right at start that makes me trust your experience.
DONT expect me to follow just because you said/typed so.
[/edit]

I agree with this. If someone jumps into the captain's chair who sounds like they know what they're doing (or are at least advocating a strategy that was similar to what I was going to do anyway), I'll back them up until and unless I find reason to do otherwise. Once you know the flow of a map, it's easy to spot people who don't, and those are generally the newbies.

[Kjudoon]

Demogarose, on 20 October 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

i lol'd. hard.

stealing this, hope you dont mind

Not only do I happily say "Steal it in good health", but I say "SPREAD THE WORD! CORRUPT THE CULTURE! TERRA DERPA! MOUNT DERP AND THE PuG ZAPPER!"Ahem... Got a little excited.

[Pht]

You can also expect that as MWO ages a little bit the PUG games should get a bit more orderly as the player base picks up experience.

Hopefully the bottom brackets in the matchmaking become virtual ghost towns.

Personally, I don't like the idea of matchmaking, as it causes problems.

It's really quite silly to think you can assess players in a mathematical formula. They've been trying that in BT for a long time and every time the systems have become settled, people learned to break them, and they had to reinvent the wheel.

[Navy Sixes]

I haven't been playing as long as some, only a few months. That said, I've had a few 'breakthrough' moments: times where I decided to do something a little differently and it totally changed my play style and kicked me to "the next level."

One of them occurred when I was in much the same situation as the OT. My PUG teams were getting capped all the time. Like 50 in a row (OK maybe not, but it did feel that way!). And I went through a lot of the same feelings. I wanted to know why my team mates couldn't stop a cap. I wanted to know why there were so many pu**y cap-warriors in the game. I wanted to know why none of the lights or mediums on the team were RTBing when the cap-warning went off.

Then I had this crazy idea: the next time the cap-warning went off, I was going to head back and break up the cap. I was trying to run a Cat with a crazy LRM salvo that was really slow. So I went into the mech-lab and sacrificed some sacred dps for some speed. Everything changed after that.

Now, when the cap-warning goes off, I can get back to help the lone light that's trying to save the game. In addition, I found that I started scoring higher damage, surviving longer, and holy sh*t I was actually enjoying the game a lot more. Big maps started to make a lot more sense; in an assault/ slow heavy, they feel like punishment. I found myself able to disengage and then reengage on better terms, and found myself wanting to play much more aggressively. I was finally scoring kills with consistency, often against the big-slow assaults I used to dread 1v1 with. It's pretty cool when you can skirmish in an LRM 'cat; keeping an enemy within LOS but outside your minimum... don't let anyone tell you LRMs = no skill! But I digress.

My point is that this game was made to be played at speed. If you think big-alpha-but-slower is always better, you're wrong. RTB should not be such a big deal. It still happens to me, but when it does I feel it's because the enemy did something well, not because the game is broken or my teammates are stupid. I would have never discovered the game for what it is (or at least it would have taken longer) if I hadn't taken that first step and decided that, even in a 65-ton LRM 'cat, it was no one else's responsibility but mine to RTB. I think if the OT tries this themselves, they may find a very different game opening up for them, much as I did.

Capping is part of the game. If you think someone else should stop the cap, you're wrong. If you build a mech that is useless in a cap race, your build is bad.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 21 October 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

Tooooonpie, on 27 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Just to update you all, if any of you care - I have decided to quit. While I appreciate and was happy with the discussion, PUG's in this game are not fun - In fact, they are downright luck based I'd go as far as saying.

Between the "who has the most lights wins" in Conquest, and the "Starting a game 4 players down because 2 are missing, and 2 are afk", PUGing in this game is not only hilariously depressing at times, its downright broken imo - At the end of the day, its just not fun, if nothing else.

So thanks everyone, I hope you all will continue to enjoy it, its just a shame that I can't anymore

find a unit to play with?

[Kjudoon]

Tycho von Gagern, on 21 October 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

One of them occurred when I was in much the same situation as the OT. My PUG teams were getting capped all the time. Like 50 in a row (OK maybe not, but it did feel that way!). And I went through a lot of the same feelings. I wanted to know why my team mates couldn't stop a cap. I wanted to know why there were so many pu**y cap-warriors in the game. I wanted to know why none of the lights or mediums on the team were RTBing when the cap-warning went off.

I suspect when the costs of dying get reimplemented you are going to see a LOT more cap warriors showing up. The Twitch Munchkins are still going to charge each other like profane Tasmanian Devils, but you don't have to do that and be left out of the action. When one side rolls the other, they will either be coming for you en masse but hurt, the stragglers will come wandering for the 'sneaky' cap win right into your net, or you can advance and push on their base unharmed and thereby with greater profit because your mech is in nigh pristine condition. Boring? Could be. Effective? yes. Profitable? Absolutely.

Quote

Now, when the cap-warning goes off, I can get back to help the lone light that's trying to save the game. In addition, I found that I started scoring higher damage, surviving longer, and holy sh*t I was actually enjoying the game a lot more. Big maps started to make a lot more sense; in an assault/ slow heavy, they feel like punishment. I found myself able to disengage and then reengage on better terms, and found myself wanting to play much more aggressively. I was finally scoring kills with consistency, often against the big-slow assaults I used to dread 1v1 with. It's pretty cool when you can skirmish in an LRM 'cat; keeping an enemy within LOS but outside your minimum... don't let anyone tell you LRMs = no skill! But I digress.

Very wise. Also consider "Light" LRM boats with high speeds. They're like escort carriers. May only have 10-20 tubes, but if you have them all in LRM5's you can really wreck a guy's calm like an indirect AC2-5. If you can also get above 80kph, repositioning, RTB and a whole new set of tactics become very advantageous.

Quote

My point is that this game was made to be played at speed. If you think big-alpha-but-slower is always better, you're wrong. RTB should not be such a big deal. It still happens to me, but when it does I feel it's because the enemy did something well, not because the game is broken or my teammates are stupid. I would have never discovered the game for what it is (or at least it would have taken longer) if I hadn't taken that first step and decided that, even in a 65-ton LRM 'cat, it was no one else's responsibility but mine to RTB. I think if the OT tries this themselves, they may find a very different game opening up for them, much as I did.

Big Alphas are nice in a way, but let's face it. It's the realm of the small genitalia if that's all you care about. If you get the opportunity, yes, you kill quickly. But you are dependent on your opponent more than you can admit, and thrive by other people's bad decisions instead of making your own opportunities.

Quote

Capping is part of the game. If you think someone else should stop the cap, you're wrong. If you build a mech that is useless in a cap race, your build is bad.

Get ready for a new trend I think that's starting where capping for a 'cheap' win is going to be standard. Last night my teams got rolled and bad about 8 times over 12 matches by much smarter teams charging their entire blob at base. Me and my lance who liked to take up quick return points to base for fighting off a lance of lights or so got curbstomped. Over the last few days, I've been seeing the enemy also get smart and position themselves into gauntlets around their base, allowing for the enemy to charge in and get wiped out with long range hammering from cover while the lights played bait to bring em in like the ghost after Shaggy and Scooby. The result? Many 12-2 victories or better. Seen a few shut outs too.

So the next time you have some Twitch Munckin screaming for everyone to 'stick together and charge Mt. Derp.. let them go. You go check to see that the enemy doesn't 'rob the store' or go see if he's minding his. Let them scream epithets over your guaranteeing the victory for them all the way to the bank.

[WVAnonymous]

Tooooonpie, on 27 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

Just to update you all, if any of you care - I have decided to quit. While I appreciate and was happy with the discussion, PUG's in this game are not fun - In fact, they are downright luck based I'd go as far as saying.

You dropped the cash on an Overlord, and quit in days? Float me $50? I'll pay you in 3050, I promise.

Kjudoon, on 27 October 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

So the next time you have some Twitch Munckin screaming for everyone to 'stick together and charge Mt. Derp.. let them go. You go check to see that the enemy doesn't 'rob the store' or go see if he's minding his. Let them scream epithets over your guaranteeing the victory for them all the way to the bank.

I follow leaders when the orders are sensible. Any joker in a trial can "take command". I know they won't release Elo scores, but maybe a "win counter" next to your badge in the roster view?

[The Wonkavator of doom]

First thing I've noticed is that this game is billed as the "thinking mans shooter".....nope this is the same combat strategy as most group together and shoot the same target. Not really a strategy here because it is immediately apparent that the lone mech is a dead mech. So for all of you wanting to continue this game just stay with the pack and hope you get behind the enemy before they get behind you. That is the extent of the strategy to this game. For all those who flame this post afterwards yes I know you enjoy the game but personally I don't see the reason to waste any more time on it. Counter-strike had more strategy too it than this game really does.

[King Arthur IV]

people listen in premades

type all you want but txt chat is so 80s

[Kjudoon]

King Arthur IV, on 29 October 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

people listen in premades

type all you want but txt chat is so 80s

Ummm... Text chat in the 1980's was called mail. IMs are so 90's. Texting is so 00's

Just improving the historical awareness. Nothing personal.

Edited by Kjudoon, 29 October 2013 - 09:51 AM.