41 replies to this topic

[x BUSTOV x]

For a light mech that is supposed to be a scout I think it is time to award experience points for capturing a and holding a node. Especially now that it takes so long now. That would go along way to making it desirable to play a scout.

[Grym]

I would agree...when lights dont brawl better than mediums.

[x BUSTOV x]

Another thing would be xp and cbills for using a tag or narc when target is killed by missiles. Make it worth while to use equip support weapons.

[Nryrony]

Bustov99, on 15 October 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

For a light mech that is supposed to be a scout I think it is time to award experience points for capturing a and holding a node. Especially now that it takes so long now. That would go along way to making it desirable to play a scout.

Who said that lights are scouts? THERE IS NO SCOUTING in this game.

[FupDup]

Nryrony, on 15 October 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Who said that lights are scouts? THERE IS NO SCOUTING in this game.

Technically there is scouting (see enemies, then tell your team about the enemies), the problem is that all mechs of all weight classes are equally effective at it (and in most battles it's hardly even a necessary activity). A Stalker or Jagermech, for instance, can scout just as effectively as a Locust, which is just plain stupid.

[OneEyed Jack]

Light mechs are used for scouts because they can get to places you need to scout faster, and disengage better if spotted. Yes a Stalker or Jager could scout, but by the time they get there, any advantage will have most likely been lost. And if they get spotted, they get torn to pieces before they can break off.

Why people think that because Lights don't have some magical scouting powers that other mechs don't have, makes them not better scouts, is beyond me. Or perhaps the basic idea of a scout's job is beyond them....

[Rhent]

There is no scouting role now. Why? Piranha lazy as heck OR they don't have the coding resources to implement game changes now.

It wouldn't be that hard to make some light only mods that would increase LRM range OR speed OR damage when the light uses TAG. Also make it where Lights that are TAG'ing gets a larger share of the XP and the bonus damage they are doing due to their mod gets applied to the Light mech.

If they implement anything to increase the capping bonus it will just increase cap warrior and no one wants that.

[Khobai]

Quote

I would agree...when lights dont brawl better than mediums.

yep.

1) scouting needs to be an actual role, where the risk of scouting is actually worth the reward.
2) mediums need to be better brawler than lights
3) mediums need to be more versatile than heavies

right now lights are more than a match for most 50 ton or less mediums. and heavies are too versatile compared to mediums, which are supposed to be the most versatile weight class.

Edited by Khobai, 16 October 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[PanzerMagier]

AH AH HA HA

What is this role warfare you speak of?
I remember back in closed beta some similar big words.

There is no such thing as Role Warfare in MWO.

[xhrit]

Khobai, on 16 October 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

right now lights are more than a match for most 50 ton or less mediums. and heavies are too versatile compared to mediums, which are supposed to be the most versatile weight class.

Weight is not the balancing factor. C-Bills / BV is. And my mechs BV is way higher then most medium mechs. Why should a mech that cost almost twice as much as another mech not be able to fight it in 1v1 combat and win?

That is kinda like saying an F-35 should not be able to shoot down a blimp like the Hindenburg, because the blimp weighs more.

Hindenburg = 100 tons.
F-35 = 24 tons.

Grow a brain.

[Krivvan]

People, scouting is not the same thing as spotting.

Scouting has nothing to do with LRMs. Nothing to do with TAG. Nothing to do with capping. Nothing to do with staying relatively still and keeping a mech targeted.

Scouting can be very important, and becomes absolutely vital in organized games. Your team is unable to commit to a decision until it knows exactly what each element of the opposing team is doing. Acting rashly without knowledge of the enemy's movements leads to being capped.

Now, Lights make the best scouts because they scout the quickest allowing the team to be able to make a decision quicker than if another mech had done it. Lights are also the only class that can reasonably go off on their own. This is because they will usually always be able to escape any trouble.

Lights in MWO do not exist for only scouting. They have several roles that they must switch between in each game:

• Scouting: They start each game with the scouting role and do scouting later if any element of the opposing team is missing.
  
• Fast Response: When your team has made a mistake and requires a fast response, only Lights can usually make it there in time. Most of the time this is the need to defend a base cap, but sometimes you need to help out someone on your team in combat.
  
• Combat: Lights can be extraordinarily deadly in combat, but generally require that a fight has already started in order to be of use. Once they are in a situation where they can lose the attention of an enemy and constantly hit back, they can rack up damage, kills, and assists comparable to Heavies and Assaults.
  
• Skirmishing/Strafing: A variation of the combat role, they act as a sort of weaker jump sniper when they have nothing better to do during a standoff.
  
• Assassinating: A very important role is taking down opponents that are weakened and attempting to flee and/or otherwise survive. You want enemy mechs (unless weaponless) to be taken down ASAP. This can mean taking a risk behind enemy lines to put a final blow on an enemy, or getting behind an enemy trying to hide its back in order to take it down. This can also mean taking down the rare isolated Heavy/Assault if the situation allows for it.
  
• Capping: This should be obvious, but mindless capping right off the bat isn't the right way to go about it. Capping should be done as an opening to your team making an offensive push, as a way to achieve victory when outnumbered (the heavier mechs have a holding action until you finish capping), lure enemy lights back to the base, and etc.
  
• Spotting: I generally hate lights being used for spotting, since I think that is a complete waste of their abilities and leaves them far too vulnerable to snipers, but some people consider lights to be meant for spotting with TAG and etc.
  
• Light hunting: Lights are generally decent at hunting other lights. Taking down other lights usually means your lights are free to do any of the above roles without as much trouble

Role warfare is alive and well, it just isn't contrived and given explicit "skills."


It depends on the specific mech, but Heavies tend to be specialized damage dealers that can't take as much punishment as Assaults. Assaults tend to be the solid mass of a team. Mediums have admittedly the weakest place, but they ideally screen for enemy lights, and otherwise protect the heavier mechs. They are somewhat recently starting to be used more as flexible elements that can break off and assist lights whenever they need heavier firepower but also be able to remain with the bulk of the team and contribute meaningfully. Mediums do not out-fight Lights. Mediums do not out-fight Heavies/Assaults. Mediums can however join with both Lights and Heavies/Assaults in their fights against others.

Lights cannot carry out combat with equal numbers against good heavier mechs and expect to win. They are force multipliers. They cannot exist without the heavier bulk of the team that they revolve around. Heavies and Assaults cannot be confident in decisions without information from lights, and they cannot be offensive without Lights to prevent the enemy from taking opportunities such as ending the game with a cap.

I'd much prefer the roles to be organic as they are rather than forced. It's a lot more fun figuring out your place on a team and what your unique inherent advantages can accomplish than it is to play random games with random people with outright obvious "class abilities" for you to use.

If you think there are no roles in the game then you are choosing to believe that there are no roles because there wasn't a clear railroaded outline for you to follow.

There definitely is a scouting role. Whether you can do something to encourage that in pug games, however, is a different matter.


Side note: This is really just a pet peeve of mine, but calling Lights scouts is extremely misleading and gives the impression that lights are only meant for scouting.

Edited by Krivvan, 16 October 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[Training Instructor]

Six medium laser alphas to the back from a 150kph jump-capable mech.

[Krivvan]

Training Instructor, on 16 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Six medium laser alphas to the back from a 150kph jump-capable mech.

But can only bring that to bear when the opponent is either terrible or otherwise occupied with something else such as your Heavies and Assaults.

Synergy!

[Nryrony]

This is a matter of taste i guess. I see light's as pack hunters or as backstabbers. Real scouting would probably be not fun.

however, at the current state, lights and mediums need some love.

[Krivvan]

OneEyed Jack, on 15 October 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Why people think that because Lights don't have some magical scouting powers that other mechs don't have, makes them not better scouts, is beyond me. Or perhaps the basic idea of a scout's job is beyond them....

Well considering so many people think that sitting still spotting for LRMs is the same thing as scouting...

[Cybermech]

Grym, on 15 October 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

I would agree...when lights dont brawl better than mediums.

Lights brawl better then mediums since mediums agility means nothing when assaults and heavies have little issue in turning when skills are unlocked.

[Joseph Mallan]

Grym, on 15 October 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

I would agree...when lights dont brawl better than mediums.

Lights should not be brawlers

They need to use finesse

[stjobe]

Krivvan, on 16 October 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

If you think there are no roles in the game then you are choosing to believe that there are no roles because there wasn't a clear railroaded outline for you to follow.

In my case it's actually because I don't get rewarded with XP/CB for anything other than straight up combat.

If I got half the reward from a kill where I spotted/TAGged the target for indirect LRM fire, I'd do it way more often.
If capping gave me more than 50 XP and 50 CB per point, I might be more inclined to cap.
If scouting gave any rewards at all, I'd be all around the map looking for enemies.

But it doesn't, so I'm forced to fight to gain my XP/CB.

And sadly that means that I will go ahead and fight to the best of my ability, ensuring I get as much XP/CB out of it as I can - which in turn means not doing any traditional light roles if I can help it.

[Mehlan]

Grym, on 15 October 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

I would agree...when lights dont brawl better than mediums.

...your saying 'lights' are better at fighting mediums than mediums or lights are?

[Artgathan]

Rhent, on 15 October 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

There is no scouting role now. Why? Piranha lazy as heck OR they don't have the coding resources to implement game changes now.

It wouldn't be that hard to make some light only mods that would increase LRM range OR speed OR damage when the light uses TAG. Also make it where Lights that are TAG'ing gets a larger share of the XP and the bonus damage they are doing due to their mod gets applied to the Light mech.

If they implement anything to increase the capping bonus it will just increase cap warrior and no one wants that.

Khobai, on 16 October 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

yep.

1) scouting needs to be an actual role, where the risk of scouting is actually worth the reward.
2) mediums need to be better brawler than lights
3) mediums need to be more versatile than heavies

right now lights are more than a match for most 50 ton or less mediums. and heavies are too versatile compared to mediums, which are supposed to be the most versatile weight class.

What if we made radar range dependent on tonnage? The lighter the mech the longer the radar range.

We could even go a step further and do the inverse: heavier mechs can be detected from further away than lighter mechs. (IE: if I'm staring at a Locust and an Atlas standing shoulder to shoulder, depending on the range I might be able to get a radar hit off the Atlas but not the Locust).