143 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

This article outlines the OmniMech as it appears in Canon.

In Canon, OmniMechs make use of "Omni-pods" which can mount almost anything. However anything mounted on the mech's base chassis, (armor, engine, any equipment such as heatsinks, and occasionally weapons) are not removable. Removing them effectively hardwires anything else to the omnimech and makes it into a battlemech.

The problem with Omnimechs in the past was that because they literally had NO limitations (except in mechwarrior 4 when they were barely different from regular battlemechs except for a few Omni hard points here and there). You could alter the engine, base heatsinks, and armor as much as you wanted, and that made the choice of Omni over battlemech a very easy one.

Here is my solution to balance Omni-Mechs with inner sphere battlemechs and even clan upgraded battlemechs such as the Highlander IIC and jenner IIC. Spoiler alert, it does not involve making them prohibitively costly, as that would only reinforce p2w and couldnt really work without repair and rearm, which was removed from the game during closed beta.

Omnimechs have a set number of Omnipods on each mech (they work like hard points but without the type limitations). Omnimechs still obey the critical slots rules. Implement a dynamic scaling system that will fill unused Omniports on all parts of the mechs when large weapons are installed. (EX: Installing a pair of Clan LBX AC20s will begin restricting your other omni points the same way endo steel and ferro will fill critical slots in a dynamic fashion).

Do away with the "modifying base equipment converts it into a battlemech" aspect of Omnimechs. As omnimechs come with an engine, equipment, armor, and a set of heatsinks hard wired into the chassis, these are not removable, and should not be removable at any time. PGI could add variation to different omnimechs and artifically create multiple variants by altering the hard wired components on each mech. (EX: Omnimech variant A has ECM and a clan XL350 engine with X tonnes of armor and 10 clan double heatsinks hard wired into the chassis, whilst Omnimech variant B has no ECM, a clan XL 360, y tonnes of armor and 10 double heatsinks hard wired into the chassis). This could make sure that while they balance omnis in a way that limits cheese builds, every canon build (no matter how crappy) can be built on at least one variant.

The most important part of this is that the engines CANNOT be modified. This can be a huge deal in some cases, such as with the Atlas and Direwolf. Normally I would pick the direwolf any day, and though it will still outgun an atlas, the standard atlas brawling ddc employs a standard 350 engine and moves at over 60 kph with speed tweak. A direwolf would be stuck at 54 kph max speed and this makes mechwarriors think for a minute, "do i want versitile firepower or control over speed and armor?")

Armor cannot be modified anywhere on the mech. Additional heat sinks can be added provided you have the pod space. Equipment such as case and bap could be added, but any equipment hard wired to the chassis (such as the hellbringer's ECM) is not removable.

CLAN EQUIPMENT (NOT WEAPONS) SHOULD BE PURE TECH, NO INNER SPHERE ENGINES, CASE, OR DOUBLE HEATSINKS ON CLAN MECHS AND VICE VERSA.

In canon, omni pods only fit weapons designed for omnimechs. This seems pretty complex and would just add an artifical division to the list of available weapons. This requirement should be relaxed. Weapons can be mixed tech, equipment should not be.




FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THIS, SUBTRACT FROM IT, PICK IT APART, CRITICIZE IT, SACRIFICE IT TO APPEASE PAUL INOUYE, ETC. MORE IDEAS IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING, JUST KEEP IT CIVILIZED!

TLDR;

Clan is OP, to nerf, add dynamic omnipods to omnimechs, hardwired equipment such as base heatsinks, armor, and ENGINES cannot be removed or modified in any way, though multiple variants with different hard wired equipment and engines could be available. Weapons are mixed tech, equipment is pure tech (no clan heatsinks/equipment on IS/IS heatsinks/equipment on clan)

[Daneiel]

Then lets make the Battlemechs proper first !!!!! The battlemech must be much more limited for customisation -> like hard point sizes and cost for any changes on them and mech lock for some time after changes too !!!!

[unFearing]

So, to clarify, you get x number of omnipods for a mech, let's say you get 2 for a mech. and then you can put whatever weapon in there, but based on the slots of that weapon, it will take up slots in the other pod like dynamic armor/dynamic structure.

so if i have 2 pods, totaling to 24 slots, and i put in those clan lbx20s, i have SpaceNow = 24 - 2(C LBX20 slots).

but where do the extra dynamic slots come in to prevent the cheese boats? i get the "limit # of omnipods", but not so sure about how the slots work, asides from them shifting around based on what weapons you put in them.

mind writing an equation? It's a simple math thing, but i couldn't quite get it from just text

[pbiggz]

Im ****** at discreet math and algorithms, but perhaps for every crit slot taken up by a weapon, 1/4 of a crit slot is filled by the dynamic omni pod system. I.E. Dumb mech has 5 omni slots on the left and right arms. Installing 1 medium laser on the left arm means that 1 quarter of a single crit slot on the right arm would be taken up, this would obviously round down so you wouldnt be punished for putting small weapons on, BUT, put 4 medium lasers on, and it takes up 1 extra crit slot.

There's probably a way to right it down as an algorithm but i cant quite figure it out yet.


Simpler example

1 medium laser = 1/4 of a crit slot = rounded down to no change
2 medium lasers = 1/2 (1/4 from each) of a crit slot = rounded down to no change
4 medium lasers = 1 crit slot taken up by dynamic system

etc.

Edited by pbiggz, 16 October 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[dal10]

if the clans AREN'T brokenly overpowered, you know the rage will be just as bad for nerfing their beloved mary sue mechs right?

[FriscoeHotsauce]

Okay, while I love all the discussion about fixed hardpoints and no mixed tech, I think there are some important things to realize from a video game development viewpoint.

1) It's unlikely that PGI will retro-actively impose hardpoint size restrictions, or any huge game changing re-balance of the 'Mech Chassis.

2) Clan tech is fun. There is no way that they will alienate an entire player base that has spent tons of money and time investing in Inner Sphere mechs. Customization is also king in MWO, I imagine they will find some way for clan mechs to be customize able.

3) MWO is an "interpretation" of battle tech. They've been following the Table Top closely in some regards, and not others. For example, heat scaling is it's own design, but default load outs are true to the Technical Readouts to the point of being un-useful in MWO. My point here is that there is room for interpretation that isn't necessarily reflective of the Table Top.

Finally, I would like to advise caution with all of the speculation. If everyone gets an idea in their head how Clan tech should work, then there's going to be another scuffle when they finally release details, and PGI's vision doesn't meet the vastly different speculations on the forums.

That in mind, feel free to continue discussing. Clan are awesome, and it's totally natural to be interested in how they will work in an online shooter. Personally, i'm going to continue to be cautious and wait for PGI to talk about it and avoid getting my hopes up for any one plan.

Edited by Flavious59, 16 October 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

This is similar to what I had in mind, but a little different.


My proposal was originally similar to yours. Initially, every clan omnimech's internals, equipment, and engines are entirely OFF LIMITS in the mechlab. These componenets CANNOT be altered if they are to retain being omnimechs as per Canon.

The tradeoff here is that every omnimechs has their own set of hardpoints (lets use the Timberwolf as a good go to). The Twolf here would have a set number of HardPoints and Omnipods to use for their weapon loadouts; still restrained by critical slot use (although, really a non-issue with clan tech taking very few crits).


So lets say the base hardpoints and omnipods for the Twolf Prime is

LA - 1 energy, 1 omni
RA - 1 energy, 1 omni
RT - 1 missile, 1 omni, 1 energy
LT - 1 missile, 1 omni , 1 energy
CT - 2 ballistic

These hardpoints would encompass the base loadout of 2 ER Llas, 2 ER mLas, 1 ER mpLas, and 2 Cmguns. The omnipods and hardpoints weapons (and ammo being placed anywhere, damn you OP clan CASE!) would be entirely changeable at the users will, at the normal restrictions of critical slots, and hardpoints. So, you want a quad LBX10 Twolf? Fine, you're now stuck with the Stock armor engine, equipment and HS. They cannot be altered if you want to use those omni-pods for that.

However, should the user want to swap out the engine, add more armor, or add more equipment/heat sinks? A prompt would pop-up saying "Warning! Altering the internals would revert this omnimech to a battlemech! Do you wish to continue?" and in doing so, the omnimech then reverts back to a standard battlemech, fully able to swap out all internals, armor and engines par usual.

Here is the trade-off though from Canon. You lose those onmni-pods. Now that your Twolf is now reverted back to a standard Battlemech, here are it new hardpoints...

LA - 1 energy
RA - 1 energy
RT - 1 missile, 1 energy
LT - 1 missile , 1 energy
CT - 2 ballistic


You just traded away an omnimechs biggest advantage for a battlemechs biggest advantage. As for Standard Clan Battlemechs like the Grizzly, Kodiak or Supernova; the ability to convert these mechs to an omni is not possible, therefore you can never gain omni-pods on these mechs (or any standard IS battlemech for that matter).

Same rule applies to future IS Omnimechs like the Avatar, Owens, or Templar.


Here is the rule set base for this reference.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Advantages

Quote

The modular construction allows MechWarriors to customize their machine's weapon loadout to suit their own skills and preference, and suit specific tactical or environmental needs as required. Where a BattleMech of comparable weight is designed and built for a specific role, a OmniMech can serve as a direct-fire combatant one day, and a missile boat the next. A single 'Mech that can perform the role of four frees up significant logistical space during a campaign.

Disadvantages

Quote

Despite their flexability, OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms it from a OmniMech into a standard BattleMech. While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional pod-space in the arms. However the mounting points for them are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons and PPCs and so must be automatically removed to carry these weapon types an OmniMech's arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.

Oh, also forgot...


All clan weapons can be equipped on IS chassis. This is possible on MANY canon variants that utilize clan technology. Clan Equipment STAYS ON CLAN MECHS ONLY!

Weapons - Mix Tech
Equipment - Pure Tech.

Sorry, no Clan DHS or Endo on your IS chassis!

Edited by mwhighlander, 16 October 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Silence Jin Mang]

I agree with this almost to the letter, BUT, I do have to say that the whole variant thing with static different engines, armor, and equipment should be a little different. I think that, going from what an Omni mech is, to change the armor, engine, equipment should be like paying for double heatsinks, a good amount of cbills. Plus you add the cost of the engine, armor and equipment to the price. That's a lot of cbills but it still allows for a different loadout, AND it allows PGI to only have to make one of each mech. I think what you said and this would make Omni mechs and clan tech as balanced as you can. Well besides the fact I believe that it should be two stars versus three lances in a clan vs inner sphere situation. But as for balancing the mechs themselves, the Omni slots is a good way to keep them from being too OP, while giving the mech the versatility and a way to compare to Inner sphere mech boating problems in the game currently.

Edit: Onto the guys above me statement, with the whole reverting to battlemech status, our mechs aren't out in the field in the Mech lab, they are where the engineers have all the tech to change the hardwiring and such. Until CW comes out, there is no field changing/repairing. But in the case that it does come up, yes I can agree with you. The mech reverts to a battlemech until it gets properly rewired (big cbill cost).

Edited by Silence Jin Mang, 16 October 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Daneiel]

In BT everything comes on 2 ways - omni-mechs unlimited weapon customisation , but for the price of hardwired engine , armor and internals -> battlemchs are very hard for customisation but almost without restrictions ,but everysingle thing cost you so much that make it very unattractive and also cost you time . At that time both drawback for battlemechs customisation are forgotten by PGI , so you can not add the limitation of the omni-mechs without adding the drawbacks for battlemechs too .

Edited by daneiel varna, 16 October 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Omnimechs must work like in canon, that's a great way to balance them.
Truth to be told , IS Battlemechs in MWO are just more than omnies .. You can change pretty much everything and switch weapons in seconds that in the lore should need weeks..

[pbiggz]

The problem is that if they work the way they do in Canon then people will quickly switch to boating the biggest weapons they can. That's why i suggested a dynamically changing omnipod system. It limits the number of heavy crit-slot-intensive weapons you can mount on the mech and it forces you to make some tradeoffs if you want those.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 16 October 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

The problem is that if they work the way they do in Canon then people will quickly switch to boating the biggest weapons they can. That's why i suggested a dynamically changing omnipod system. It limits the number of heavy crit-slot-intensive weapons you can mount on the mech and it forces you to make some tradeoffs if you want those.

So they could do what they didn't for IS mechs..Sized hardpoints, finally!

[Daneiel]

HA HA HA . Lets handicap the Clans , but not the IS . NO THANKS -TRY AGAIN .

[CyclonerM]

daneiel varna, on 16 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

HA HA HA . Lets handicap the Clans , but not the IS . NO THANKS -TRY AGAIN .

Sadly it is what is going to be. They chose fully customizable Battlemechs for the Inner Sphere..
If they to the same for Clan 'Mechs adding omni-slots LOT of people will rage and quit from IS..

[Taemien]

I agree to keeping to the original build rules for omnimechs. And I like the idea of the dynamic hardpoint system. I'm going to throw some ideas to tone in further.

Omnimechs have some flexibilities. And I'd like to see those in MWO. But where are they flexible? In the mechlab not the battlefield. So this is what I'd like to see.

When you purchase an Omnimech, you purchase the chassis and its base Alternate Configuration. You effectively get 3-4 mechs for the price of one. Obviously the Omnimech will be slightly more expensive than a Battlemech of the same weight class and tech base (I'm addressing mechs like the Owens, Sunder, Templar, and Hauptmann too) to compensate for that. But you're still getting a pretty good deal.

Ok whats the catch? Omnimechs have restrictions. While they can be refitted on the fly. They can't really be altered like Battlemechs can. Duct tape and 550 cord only goes so far. Engine, Armor, internal heatsinks, and internal structure cannot be altered. In addition the hardmounted items cannot be removed. Things like the CT flamer on the Puma, or the Left and Right torso DHS and LL DHS on the Daishi.

But wait, thats just a crappy BattleMech! I'm getting to the other benefits. To sort of build on and give an alternate option to the OPs ideas (I'm not trying to compete, just adding more ideas to the pot). These mechs would have hardpoints similar to the BattleMechs, but of course they would have omni slots too.

Say for example, the Daishi Prime, has 7 Omni criticals in each arm. You can fit any amount of weapons up to 7 criticals worth in each arm. For balance purposes, this might be limited to a total of 5 weapons each. In addition it would have a Missile Slot in the LT.

The Daishi A would have Less criticals and weapon amounts in the arms then the Prime, but 2 Missile slots in the LT. And the other configurations would have similar pod space.

But where's the flexibility?

They have stated the want for a game mode where you play multiple matches in a row. The benefit of an omni mech is that for each variant you have weapons on. You can swap between them during the inbetween of rounds. Battlemechs will be forced to use whatever they were already using while Omnimechs will be able to switch inbetween rounds. So with one mech, you can bring long range fire support, missile support, or brawling depending on the situations.

That will be the main advantage to Omnimechs. What they lack in customization (as concerned with armor, engines, internals) they make up for with battlefield flexibility from the mechlab. Thus the restrictions are rather paltry in comparison now.

I would definitely add omnimechs to my collection if this was possible. Especially the Owens, Avatar, or Templar. Maybe even a Thor or Puma if I didn't have to switch faction base to use them lol.

As far as it goes to people saying all the ideas in this thread handicap them. You're getting a ERPPC that does 15 dmg, and fits in a CT. They won't be close to being handicapped. And remember, this affects Inner Sphere too. They get Omnimechs too eventually. We're not going to want anything that makes those DOA.

[kevin roshak]

mwhighlander, on 16 October 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

...

All clan weapons can be equipped on IS chassis. This is possible on MANY canon variants that utilize clan technology. Clan Equipment STAYS ON CLAN MECHS ONLY!

Weapons - Mix Tech
Equipment - Pure Tech.

Sorry, no Clan DHS or Endo on your IS chassis!

Sarna Omnimech page:

The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably

[pbiggz]

kevin roshak, on 16 October 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Sarna Omnimech page:

The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably

For the sake of making this game not a total headache, I mentioned that while equipment should be puretech, weaponry should be mixed tech, as anything else will just add convolution to an already intimidating-to-newbies system. That and there are plenty of IS and clan battlemechs that make use of mixed tech weapons, the easiest way to implement that is to do away with the idea that only omni-pod weapons can fit in omni-mechs.

[Taemien]

pbiggz, on 16 October 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

For the sake of making this game not a total headache, I mentioned that while equipment should be puretech, weaponry should be mixed tech, as anything else will just add convolution to an already intimidating-to-newbies system. That and there are plenty of IS and clan battlemechs that make use of mixed tech weapons, the easiest way to implement that is to do away with the idea that only omni-pod weapons can fit in omni-mechs.

Intimidation to the newbies? I don't remember anyone having issues with mixed tech in previous games. Even MW4 had a IS vs Clan mode where you had to use puretech.

You all are selling people up short. People do eventually learn how to jump over the first goomba in SMB1.

I do agree with not having a difference between omniweapons and regular weapons. The only thing that would serve is a money sink. But Clan mechs I believe should only use clan weapons and IS mechs use IS weapons and then just balance them out like MW4 and MWLL did it. (Maybe more so how MW4 did it... Clanners had issues in MWLL during puretech games)

[Daneiel]

I am sorry that i will act like a jackass but PGI stated the clan weapons will be nerfed to the level of IS (fine balance) , nerfing the omni-mechs with nerfed weapons and you asking also for handicaping the clans even at 10vs 12 , why you don't start crying i want one push win button . Sorry but i am really pissed by IS {Noble MechWarriors} who wants easy win .

[Ultra-Laser]

Here's a thought, what if you had the preset configs (Prime, A, B, C, D + custom) be selectable in the pregame lobby so you can make a last minute ajustment th what better suits you team composition, specific map, and gamemode? Sure four times out of five people will just go with their cusomised mudermachine but it would give omnimechs a way to express their fexibility while still no being able to alter their base chassis.

On another note, how could omnimech pilot lab/skill trees work? I haven't seen anyone else mention this and I'm curious to see what ideas people have.

daneiel varna, on 16 October 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I am sorry that i will act like a jackass but PGI stated the clan weapons will be nerfed to the level of IS (fine balance) , nerfing the omni-mechs with nerfed weapons and you asking also for handicaping the clans even at 10vs 12 , why you don't start crying i want one push win button . Sorry but i am really pissed by IS {Noble MechWarriors} who wants easy win .

PGI has said many things in the past that turned out not to be true. I'm not saying if that's a good thing or not but I still think its worth mentioning.

Edited by IDG, 16 October 2013 - 04:39 PM.