143 replies to this topic

[Genesis Rex]

Jyaksus is saying things that I like.

Slightly off topic: this discussion, I feel, is why PGI is taking their time releasing Clans into the game. Once UI 2.0 hits I think we may start getting some clues as to what we can expect in regards to Clans, since it's more then just a visual overhaul. Likely no solid details will come out until Christmas, and then we'll probably looking at a release date of middle '14. By then the bugs of 2.0 will be ironed out and CW will (should) be in full swing.

[Genesis Rex]

pbiggz, on 22 October 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

...what happens when a merc company fields 12 warriors outfitted fully with clan tech that they salvaged?

That is a good question. I think that if certain modes were included after CW hits, such as IS v Clan, that this issue could be addressed by limiting the IS side to having only one lance worth of mercs. However, this doesn't solve for what happens if the House forces include Clan tech... Limiting such weapon systems would be off-putting, but increasing evening out the Clan forces means risking the Clans overrunning an undergunned IS force.

Perhaps the Clans could enjoy some sweet and exclusive support modules? Can't imagine what they'd be, though...

[CyclonerM]

Clan tech to Clans, Inner Sphere tech to Inner Sphere.. If you do so, there will be a new Exodus, but if you do not do so IS tech will be useless anyway. Your choice.

[dal10]

only way to make sure that everyone and their mothers don't head to clan is to include enough drawbacks that the inner sphere seems equally viable. easiest one is making sure the clans only have the 1.4 doubles, not the full doubles. the clans run cooler with an equivalent weapons loadout cause they can mount more heatsinks. but they run hotter over all cause all they have is the high heat gear.

[Finestaut]

pbiggz, on 22 October 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Once again, consider the kitfox, a heavily armed light mech with a max speed of only 97 kph, whilst most lights go 150+? Or the direwolf, a premier assault mech that only reaches 54 kph, whilst most brawling ddcs go 60+

You've pointed out the ideal cases but not the less than ideal ones. Mind you, with the direwolf you're trading off speed for nearly 51 tonnes of pod space, whilst the kit fox can carry a similar loadout to a medium mech.

You've caught me cherry picking. There are lots of omnimechs with less than good stock engines, and players taking them would be taking a significant handicap. I did so for a reason though: if you strip away all build restrictions, you reduce omnimechs to merely an omnispace/speed ratio. Once you've done that, you've invalidated all the 'mechs with bad stock ratios.

So the Kit Fox, with it's stock 97 kph? That will have similar performance to a pre-buff Raven 2X, and it will see similar use. That's not balanced, it's just weaksauce. The Dire Wolf, on the other hand, will probably fall into the same category as the Timber Wolf: embarassingly good. It's stock speed is just a teensy bit slower than an custom atlas, but as you point out, it's got 50 tons of hate, with no sacrificed survivability.

[dal10]

the timber wolf will just get eared into oblivion. i don't think it would be embarrassingly good.

Both will get headshotted about as often as a catapult does. the dire wolf will also likely suffer from a condition known as a walking center torso. unlike the atlas you should reliably be able to hit its center torso from most angles. its arms will likely protect the side torsos but that is about it.

to put it simply, it will likely be slightly better than an atlas. and i mean just slightly.

[Tannhauser Gate]

If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, Clan pilot skills were greater than IS pilot skills in many cases. Im not saying clanners should just be “op” but I think skill trees and upgrades should play a role to spread the general op’ness around so the mechs are not the only difference.

Clan skill trees and IS skill trees should be similar but clanners advance faster in the early levels (due to “better training”). In the higher levels of skill enhancements, it should be about the same rate for both IS and Clan pilots.

Also, some skills should be exclusive to clanners or IS pilots depending on the mech technology, different equipment, and on lore and faction. Such as IS pilots are better than clanners at managing systems and rerouting failed functions because IS equipment is more varied and Clan tech is “hardwired” in the mechs. Or, clanners can get greater heat management skills because they know the exact tolerances of their mechs since, again, its hardwired. Just examples..

TL:DR, Skill differences in how fast they are earned and the skills themselves would allow more diverse roles and specialized skill sets which is more in line with PGI’s methods and take pressure off the mechs to be the only point of difference between IS and Clan.

[dal10]

actually in efficiency the clans are far more likely to switch what mechs they are using compared to the IS. In the inner sphere someone might pilot the same mech for a decade or more. they will know its performance far better than any clan warrior will know of a mechs. especially considering the clan mechs hardware changes every mission. they simply don't have time to memorize the capabilities of a particular mech and loadout.

[Crusbbcc]

dal10, on 22 October 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

actually in efficiency the clans are far more likely to switch what mechs they are using compared to the IS. In the inner sphere someone might pilot the same mech for a decade or more. they will know its performance far better than any clan warrior will know of a mechs. especially considering the clan mechs hardware changes every mission. they simply don't have time to memorize the capabilities of a particular mech and loadout.

That's a funny statement. Even simple computer gamers can memorize mechs and configurations. People who play an hour a day.
Are you seriously saying a clan warrior who was genetically chosen, bred, trained fom childhood will have a problem remembering the special traits of the few omni Mitch's there are? They train every day almost all day. Seriously?

[dal10]

there are some quirks you would only recognize over a long period of time. and i am talking about the kind that would be specific to an individual mech, not to the entirety of a chassis type. for example, one mech might have one leg that moves slightly faster than the other. this would throw off the aim slightly. a pilot gets that mech it is unlikely they would notice immediately. eventually they would figure out why their aim was slightly off. but if they switch mechs every few months, then it is unlikely that they would notice it.

[pbiggz]

Crusbbcc, on 22 October 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

That's a funny statement. Even simple computer gamers can memorize mechs and configurations. People who play an hour a day.
Are you seriously saying a clan warrior who was genetically chosen, bred, trained fom childhood will have a problem remembering the special traits of the few omni Mitch's there are? They train every day almost all day. Seriously?

Take your ****** attitude somewhere else, we're having an actual discussion here. Go get mad about the shadowhawk in upcoming features or something.

dal10, on 22 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

there are some quirks you would only recognize over a long period of time. and i am talking about the kind that would be specific to an individual mech, not to the entirety of a chassis type. for example, one mech might have one leg that moves slightly faster than the other. this would throw off the aim slightly. a pilot gets that mech it is unlikely they would notice immediately. eventually they would figure out why their aim was slightly off. but if they switch mechs every few months, then it is unlikely that they would notice it.

This.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

daneiel varna, on 16 October 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Sorry but i am really pissed by IS {Noble MechWarriors} who wants easy win .

Kettle Calling the Pot Black? So you're pissed that the most OP thing in video game / Table Top history is being nerfed to not entirely invalidate half of the game, and then you continue on to say that IS pilots want an I win button?

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Genesis Rex, on 22 October 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

As was mentioned earlier in the thread the idea of two Clan Stars vs three IS Lances should be the way to go. Not only does it provide a solution to the Clan's superior swag that doesn't leave the Clanners feeling nerfed, but it also represents a canonical take on how the Clans treat warfare--they simply bid low to win greater honor.

The killing blow to this thought on balancing is, it is a very round-about non-solution. Two major points...

First being Mercenaries will be allowed to field Clan Mechs with only cost being a restriction. 10 Clanners v 12 Mercs with all Clan tech won't work. "Top Tier" Merc Units will undoubtedly have the resources and funds to be able to field Clan Tech with no real issue. Limiting 10v12 Clan v IS serves only as a nostalgic canon based buff to Mercenaries seeking to claim Clan worlds. MechWarrior may take place in the BT universe, but for the sake of PvP balance, many concepts must be let go.

Second is that there are more objective based game modes being produced for CW, where inherit power from weapons are not as important. Being at a number disadvantage in objected oriented game modes as opposed to the pseudo TDM's we have now will simply make Clanners at such an inherit disadvantage...

...we all know that outside these forums where true Clanner RP's live, players will go towards Clan Tech because it is superior, and nothing else. Honor is fighting an uphill battle will fall on def ears when it comes to the tryhards. A solution to balancing out Clan v IS must be found elsewhere than stacking numbers.

Balancing Clan Tech Equipment, Omni's, and Weapons are the way to go, not artificial balance through numbers. MechWarrior is not an RPG where such concepts can balance things, only in a TT RPG environment like Battletech can such a solution be viable.



Anyway, Omni Hard-Points already exist in the game. Those of you who know how to dig around in the game files can see they are still present. But here is an older Screenie I have on hand for show.

[Genesis Rex]

@mwhighlander: Well reasoned and done; I agree, now, that balancing Clans by limiting their drop to only two Stars is not the way to go. The simplest solution it seems would be to keep tech in their respective corners; clan tech to clans, IS tech to IS.

For the record, though, I prefer IS over Clans. I just don't want to see a well-loved faction watered down to make an easier fight. Were it up to me I'd give the Clans all the advantages they had in CBT.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Genesis Rex, on 23 October 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

@mwhighlander: Well reasoned and done; I agree, now, that balancing Clans by limiting their drop to only two Stars is not the way to go. The simplest solution it seems would be to keep tech in their respective corners; clan tech to clans, IS tech to IS.

For the record, though, I prefer IS over Clans. I just don't want to see a well-loved faction watered down to make an easier fight. Were it up to me I'd give the Clans all the advantages they had in CBT.

Clan tech and pilots have to be watered down or somehow smoothed out when compared to the lore. They simply cannot be allowed to obsolesce the current content. If they separated clan tech from is tech based on faction, there would be the mass exodus to clan tech.

My current take on it is: Clan tech and clan mechs should be rare and expensive but open to all players. Clan pilots should have to join a clan faction to get this equipment. Clan pilot skill trees should be separate from IS pilots and used to simulate the superior training but also not be immediately op over IS pilots. In an earlier post I gave an example of perhaps allowing clanners to advance faster in the lower tree levels. I would add to that, higher skill tree skills for clanners would be as slow or slower than IS pilots so it creates a bulge of clan players in the medium range while the IS players are spread out more. Again, just my current opinion..

Meh.. PGI has their work cut out for them. They will have to reimagine the clans differently than the lore.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 23 October 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Daneiel]

mwhighlander, on 23 October 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

Kettle Calling the Pot Black? So you're pissed that the most OP thing in video game / Table Top history is being nerfed to not entirely invalidate half of the game, and then you continue on to say that IS pilots want an I win button?

To explain myself better , you can not ask for 12vs10 , nerfing the clan tech , clan tech available for IS players and restricting the omni-mechs at the same time you don't restrict the battlemechs properly -> all that in the same time !!! That is really shallow . I am agree nerf the clan tech to some level of balance to IS and implement regiment vs binary , but at the same time you need to bring back R&R with full price for everything you twitching of the battlemechs and full restriction of the tech to the their factions - aka. IS tech for IS players, clan tech for Clan players -> no clan tech for IS and no IS for the Clans. That was all about it .

P.S. I will ak you what is the most significant difference between clan mechs and IS mechs -> clan mechs are faster then IS counterparts , so you restrict Kit Fox to 97km/h but IS mech with simmilar speed as commando can run 170 km/h , at the same time you can not tuch the armor too ( not that much matter for light mech any way it will be one shooted ) , but you made so much underpowered .

Edited by daneiel varna, 23 October 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[pbiggz]

Examples like the kit fox point not to IS mechs being broken, but the game itself lacking an objective. When we have more asymmetric and meaningful game modes (mission play plz) many mechs such as the dragon will suddenly find a new purpose. Also as i said before, in the case of the kitfox, it may be woefully under speed for a light, but it packs the punch that most inner sphere medium mechs pack. Remember, its an omnimech, while you cannot modify internals and armor, you have a level of freedom with your loadouts that IS mechs only dream of, even now!

And for a game like this, choice is what makes it fun, if you force hard line puretech people will simply flock to the clans, ESPECIALLY if they dont nerf it right and it ends up being superior to IS tech.

Edited by pbiggz, 23 October 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Daneiel]

Probably we play different games , IF YOU DON'T SEE PROBLEM WITH TOO MUCH CUSTOMISATION IN THE INNER SPHERE , pls go back re-read my first post . Light mech can not survive in that state of the game without speed - TO UNDERSTAND ME RIGHT -> ADDER has 6t of armor and run 97 km/h has good fire power fot its weight , but can not withstand even one of these massive pinpoint alpha damage in the game ( I rearly see someone to use more then 2 weapon groups in MWO) , in the same time a jenner has the same armor , close not equal but close fire power and almost twice the speed - so its the problem , you can not ask for restrict so much the omni mechs and in the same time you give free ride for every single one who use battlemech . Think in that way if you think its only for the clans -> 3056 Avatars 1st appearance so what is the point to take an Avatar instead of Cataphract ????? Now you can start thinking for the whole of the game not only how to make the clan unplayable.

Edited by daneiel varna, 24 October 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[pbiggz]

I'm not calling for making clan tech inferior, i'm theorizing on how we can bring it in line with LOGICAL restrictions. If you ever played mechwarrior 2 or 3 you would know that there were ZERO restrictions and it was highly vulnerable to cheese builds. Stop acting like i'm calling for a crippling nerf.

Also dont mistake IS lights taking alphas for being more powerful then clan lights. First off, they can't take alphas, and second, any time you do see that, its not armor, its hit detection, which is not the topic of this thread.

[Finestaut]

dal10, on 22 October 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

the timber wolf will just get eared into oblivion. i don't think it would be embarrassingly good.

Both will get headshotted about as often as a catapult does. the dire wolf will also likely suffer from a condition known as a walking center torso. unlike the atlas you should reliably be able to hit its center torso from most angles. its arms will likely protect the side torsos but that is about it.

to put it simply, it will likely be slightly better than an atlas. and i mean just slightly.

What you're saying here is that the devs might choose to balance the "good" omnimechs by giving them bad hitboxes. I suppose this is possible, but not a guarantee. Look at the discrepancy between the stalker and catapult: two superficially similar designs with completely different hitbox concepts. I wouldn't make any assumptions along those lines, even the Timber Wolf's ears are up in the air at the moment.

mwhighlander, on 23 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Balancing Clan Tech Equipment, Omni's, and Weapons are the way to go, not artificial balance through numbers. MechWarrior is not an RPG where such concepts can balance things, only in a TT RPG environment like Battletech can such a solution be viable.

This is a very important distinction here. Stuff that works in TT doesn't necessarily work in MWO. Trying to make MWO more like TT isn't necessarily good for MWO.

mwhighlander, on 23 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Anyway, Omni Hard-Points already exist in the game. Those of you who know how to dig around in the game files can see they are still present. But here is an older Screenie I have on hand for show.

I'm not sure that counts as "already exists in the game." Game file mining is good for a lot of things, like identifying variants a patch or two early, but not for predicting the exact nature of features months in advance. Note that we've also seen paperdolls with separate hitboxes for shoulder missiles, yet the Thunderbolt's missile pods are still part of Side Torso.

pbiggz, on 23 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Also as i said before, in the case of the kitfox, it may be woefully under speed for a light, but it packs the punch that most inner sphere medium mechs pack. Remember, its an omnimech, while you cannot modify internals and armor, you have a level of freedom with your loadouts that IS mechs only dream of, even now!

We keep coming back to the kitfox. For you, it's a sign that omnimechs need to be engine limited. For me, it's a guarantee that they absolutely cannot be. In MWO, a 30 ton 'mech that can't break 130kph is a coffin on chicken legs. If that 'mech is stuck with the stock 180XL, it might as well not exist.

pbiggz, on 23 October 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

And for a game like this, choice is what makes it fun, if you force hard line puretech people will simply flock to the clans, ESPECIALLY if they dont nerf it right and it ends up being superior to IS tech.

Here you're totally right. Choice is super important. The big challenge of clantech is going to be building it such that it doesn't erase all of the existing IS content, AND doesn't pre-erase half of the clan content.