143 replies to this topic

[Rift Hawk]

Getting a little ahead of yourselves aren't you. With CW coming soon I would assume they're spending a lot of time working on that. Not to mention in the post of upcoming features, Clan mechs were no where to be seen in the foreseeable future.

Also, seeming as how the Clan invasion brought in the first seen Omni mechs, they were in no way "balanced" in comparison to IS mechs. Balancing something that is supposed to be inherently more powerful seems kind of stupid. Nerfing mechs because you decided to make a game in 3050 is basically what it boils down to. They could have started the game in 3075-3100 and Omni mechs would be on both sides. Instead Clan mechs will have to be "balanced" so that there isn't a mass exodus from IS mechs.

I understand that if something is the most powerful everyone will play it. Now we are going to be stuck with a bunch of clan mechs that aren't tougher, aren't more heat efficient........just the same old, same old with omni points. Which with the current hardpoint system, seems to me like a horrible idea.

[Joseph Mallan]

Isn't it bordering on moronic to launch a game that is supposed to follow the Clan Invasion without the Clans anywhere in sight? It would seem like launching a Middle Earth MMO and not having Orcs to fight.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

Isn't it bordering on moronic to launch a game that is supposed to follow the Clan Invasion without the Clans anywhere in sight? It would seem like launching a Middle Earth MMO and not having Orcs to fight.

They wrote in the game page "at the edge of a massive interstellar war"... Maybe for them that means 3 real life years!

[Strum Wealh]

Something that I think could be interesting is the (unlikely, IMO) possibility that true omni hardpoints could be largely (if not entirely) eschewed in favor of MekTek-style hybrid hardpoints.

• B/E = ballistic/energy only
  
• B/M = ballistic/missile only
  
• E/M = energy/missile only

With this, one way to set up the Mad Cat's hardpoints (such that one could actually create every canon configuration on a single 'Mech) might be:

• Head: none
  
• CT: 1 B/E
  
• LT: 1 B/E, 1 B/M, 2 E/M, 1 AMS
  
• RT: 1 B/E, 1 B/M, 2 E/M, 1 ECM, 1 Targeting Computer (if those get their own hardpoint type)
  
• LA: 1 B/E, 1 E/M
  
• RA: 1 B/E, 1E/M
  
• LL: none
  
• RL: none

As another example, one way to set up the Daishi's hardpoints (such that one could actually create every canon configuration on a single 'Mech) might be:

• Head: 1 E/M
  
• CT: 1 B/E, 1 E/M, 1 ECM
  
• LT: 2 B/E, 2 E/M
  
• RT: 2 B/E, 2 E/M, 1 AMS, 1 Targeting Computer
  
• LA: 2 B/E, 1 B/M, 2 E/M
  
• RA: 2 B/E, 1 B/M, 2 E/M
  
• LL: none
  
• RL: none

Likewise, one way to set up the Black Hawk's hardpoints (such that one could actually create every canon configuration on a single 'Mech) might be:

• Head: none
  
• CT: 1 AMS
  
• LT: 1 B/E, 1 B/M, 1 AMS
  
• RT: 1 B/E, 1 B/M, 1 AMS
  
• LA: 3 B/E, 3 E/M
  
• RA: 3 B/E, 3 E/M
  
• LL: none
  
• RL: none

If they did this together with locking-down the core components (engine type/rating, structure type/crits, armor type/amount/crits, fixed equipment locations/crits) to control tonnage and crit availability, it could be a reasonable way to maintain the spirit of OmniMech customizability while also putting it into a state where it cannot get too much out of control, yes?

Thoughts?

[CyclonerM]

Strum Wealh, on 28 October 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Thoughts?

May work.

[Finestaut]

Strum Wealh, on 28 October 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Something that I think could be interesting is the (unlikely, IMO) possibility that true omni hardpoints could be largely (if not entirely) eschewed in favor of MekTek-style hybrid hardpoints.

...

If they did this together with locking-down the core components (engine type/rating, structure type/crits, armor type/amount/crits, fixed equipment locations/crits) to control tonnage and crit availability, it could be a reasonable way to maintain the spirit of OmniMech customizability while also putting it into a state where it cannot get too much out of control, yes?

Thoughts?

Your idea here is that, with clever allocation of semi-omni hardpoints, you can keep exploitative builds from arising. I think it's still very abuseable. It permits a quad UAC20 Dire Wolf: the harvester of tears. There's a very good reason that, even with ghost heat, no current 'mech can fit more than 2 large ballistics. This is the same problem that arises from omni hardpoints: the devs lose control over what weapon combinations are legal.

I'm also steadfast in my resistance to locking down engines. This effectively invalidates those clan omnimechs that have significantly undersized stock engines.

[Commander Kobold]

Give Omni mechs X number of Omni hardpoints that can have any weapon placed in them problem solved

Finestaut, on 28 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Your idea here is that, with clever allocation of semi-omni hardpoints, you can keep exploitative builds from arising. I think it's still very abuseable. It permits a quad UAC20 Dire Wolf: the harvester of tears. There's a very good reason that, even with ghost heat, no current 'mech can fit more than 2 large ballistics. This is the same problem that arises from omni hardpoints: the devs lose control over what weapon combinations are legal.

I'm also steadfast in my resistance to locking down engines. This effectively invalidates those clan omnimechs that have significantly undersized stock engines.

with the heat penalty system anyone rocking 4 U/AC20s will most likely suffer the fate of a 6 PPC stalker

[Finestaut]

Omni 13, on 28 October 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Give Omni mechs X number of Omni hardpoints that can have any weapon placed in them problem solved



with the heat penalty system anyone rocking 4 U/AC20s will most likely suffer the fate of a 6 PPC stalker

So you're asserting that ghost heat has effectively solved the game's major balance problem: that weapons balanced individually become imbalanced when combined?

Fair enough. You can scale the build back a bit, and replace 2 UAC20s with UAC10s. Now you've got a 60 point pinpoint alpha, 50% more than any current 'mech, and you can likely fire 3 of those 4 guns again in a half second, for no more ghost heat than that experienced by a jagermech. That's 120 points of very front loaded, very focused damage. That's game breaking, and cannot be allowed.

But we're going down a rabbit hole here, exploring a hypothetical build. Unless you put some real, honest-to-goodness, hard limits, that seriously, for-real-and-for-true ban certain weapon combinations, you're going to have a system rife with abuse, no matter what happens with the metagame.

[CyclonerM]

Finestaut, on 28 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Your idea here is that, with clever allocation of semi-omni hardpoints, you can keep exploitative builds from arising. I think it's still very abuseable. It permits a quad UAC20 Dire Wolf: the harvester of tears. There's a very good reason that, even with ghost heat, no current 'mech can fit more than 2 large ballistics. This is the same problem that arises from omni hardpoints: the devs lose control over what weapon combinations are legal.

I'm also steadfast in my resistance to locking down engines. This effectively invalidates those clan omnimechs that have significantly undersized stock engines.

Nggh.. Sized hardpoints and Homeless' Bill targeting computer.. Why not?

[pbiggz]

Finestaut, on 28 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Your idea here is that, with clever allocation of semi-omni hardpoints, you can keep exploitative builds from arising. I think it's still very abuseable. It permits a quad UAC20 Dire Wolf: the harvester of tears. There's a very good reason that, even with ghost heat, no current 'mech can fit more than 2 large ballistics. This is the same problem that arises from omni hardpoints: the devs lose control over what weapon combinations are legal.

I'm also steadfast in my resistance to locking down engines. This effectively invalidates those clan omnimechs that have significantly undersized stock engines.

In the OP i mentioned dynamically managing the available omni pods using some sort of algorithm similar to the way Ferro Fibrous and Endo Steel internals will block up your criticals at certain points.

EX: Putting more than 2 UAC20s on an omnimech will start to negatively effect the critical slots you have available in a way that will prevent you from installing any more weapons of similar size, type, or weight, etc.

Its not totally fleshed out and probably isn't that great of an example but it was just a thought.

As for locking internals, IF we unlock internals, then it lends itself even more to huge quad UAC20 builds or the dreaded triple gauss double erppc gladbag. Locking internals also creates a clear cut disadvantage to omni-mechs. Greater freedom to install weapons and certain equipment is balanced by more restrictions on armor, heatsinks, and engines.

Light mechs like the kitfox mind you can carry loadouts similar to medium mechs, so while they have subpar speed, they are well armed, if the game gets more balanced out that should not be a problem.

[Strum Wealh]

Finestaut, on 28 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Your idea here is that, with clever allocation of semi-omni hardpoints, you can keep exploitative builds from arising. I think it's still very abuseable. It permits a quad UAC20 Dire Wolf: the harvester of tears. There's a very good reason that, even with ghost heat, no current 'mech can fit more than 2 large ballistics. This is the same problem that arises from omni hardpoints: the devs lose control over what weapon combinations are legal.

Though, part of the issue with OmniMechs is that what is supposed to be one of their limiting factors is the amount of tonnage and the number of critical spaces not consumed by the Structure, Engine, pre-equipped/"fixed" Jump Jets, pre-equipped/"fixed" Heat Sinks, Armor, Gyro, Cockpit, pre-equipped/"fixed" MASC, pre-equipped/"fixed" Triple Strength Myomer, and pre-equipped/"fixed" electronics (BAP, ECM, etc), and pre-equipped/"fixed" weapons - where such open tonnage and criticals is considered "pod space".

• Daishi: 50.50 tons of pod space, 41 criticals free
  
• Gladiator: 26.50 tons of pod space, 30 criticals free
  
• Masakari: 32.50 tons of pod space, 26 criticals free
  
• Man O' War: 21.50 tons of pod space, 40 criticals free
  
• Mad Cat: 27.50 tons of pod space, 33 criticals free
  
• Thor: 22.50 tons of pod space, 35 criticals free
  
• Loki: 28.50 tons of pod space, 47 criticals free
  
• Vulture: 28.00 tons of pod space, 40 criticals free
  
• Ryoken: 23.00 tons of pod space, 33 criticals free
  
• Black Hawk: 16.00 tons of pod space, 34 criticals free
  
• Fenris: 9.50 tons of pod space, 33 criticals free
  
• Dragonfly: 8.50 tons of pod space, 25 criticals free
  
• Puma: 16.00 tons of pod space, 28 criticals free
  
• Uller: 16.00 tons of pod space, 27 criticals free
  
• Koshi: 7.50 tons of pod space, 27 criticals free
  
• Dasher: 6.50 tons of pod space, 28 criticals free

(Note that BT considers Hand Actuators and Lower Arm Actuators to be pod-mounted equipment and thus removable, and that several of the OmniMechs add and remove them from configuration to configuration. The above criticals counts do not include the four criticals that could be consumed by having Hand Actuators and Lower Arm Actuators in both arms.)

In the specific case of the Daishi: with Clan UAC/10s weighing 10 tons & consuming 4 criticals and Clan UAC/20s weighing 12 tons & consuming 8 criticals, the Daishi B (which starts with twin UAC/2s in each side-torso) would be able to equip twin UAC/10s in its side torsos even with all of the base equipment locked down and non-Omni hardpoints and the combination of that and the ballistic capabilities in the arms (from the Daishi Prime's UAC/5s) would indeed allow for quad-UAC/20s (which would come to a combined total of 48 tons and 32 criticals)... with only 2 tons of ammo (which would equate to a total of 14 individual shells under the current MWO values) to be shared by all four UACs and a single ER Small Laser or a single Flamer as the only possible backup weapons.

While the use of hybrid hardpoints rather than true Omni hardpoints adds an additional level of control, the locking-down of the pre-equipped base components (which is what creates the tonnage and crit limitations that define the pod space limitations) serves as an important limit on the OmniMechs' capabilities.

Finestaut, on 28 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm also steadfast in my resistance to locking down engines. This effectively invalidates those clan omnimechs that have significantly undersized stock engines.

Which of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs have "significantly undersized" Engines?

• Daishi: 300 XL (48.6 kph)
  
• Gladiator: 380 XL (64.8 kph) + MASC (up to 86.4 kph)
  
• Masakari: 340 XL (64.8 kph)
  
• Man O' War: 400 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Mad Cat: 375 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Thor: 350 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Loki: 325 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Vulture: 300 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Ryoken: 330 XL (97.2 kph)
  
• Black Hawk: 250 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Fenris: 360 XL (129.6 kph)
  
• Dragonfly: 320 XL (129.6 kph)
  
• Puma: 210 XL (97.2 kph)
  
• Uller: 180 XL (97.2 kph)
  
• Koshi: 175 XL (113.4 kph)
  
• Dasher: 200 XL (162.0 kph) + MASC (up to 216.0 kph)

(Note that the above speeds would be MWO speeds without Speed Tweak, and are calculated using the equation "1.5 * 10.8 * ((engine rating)/(maximum 'Mech tonnage))".)

Even the slowest of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs (the Daishi - which, as noted above, sacrifices speed for prodigious pod space) has a ground speed comparable to the stock ground speeds of other 'Mechs of the same mass - the majority of the stock Atlas variants (including those of the Atlas II and Atlas III chassis), the majority of the stock King Crab variants, the majority of the stock Marauder II variants, the majority of the stock Devastator variants, the majority of the stock Fafnir variants, and the majority of the stock Thunder Hawk variants all have the same ground speed (by virtue of having Engines with the same rating).

Also (and as noted above), the locking-down of the Engines and the other pre-equipped base components serves as an important limiter with regard to what can be loaded onto the OmniMechs.

[Finestaut]

Strum Wealh, on 29 October 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Though, part of the issue with OmniMechs is that what is supposed to be one of their limiting factors is the amount of tonnage and the number of critical spaces not consumed by the Structure, Engine, pre-equipped/"fixed" Jump Jets, pre-equipped/"fixed" Heat Sinks, Armor, Gyro, Cockpit, pre-equipped/"fixed" MASC, pre-equipped/"fixed" Triple Strength Myomer, and pre-equipped/"fixed" electronics (BAP, ECM, etc), and pre-equipped/"fixed" weapons - where such open tonnage and criticals is considered "pod space".

I understand this, I promise. My core point is that, take this away from the Table Top and put it into MWO, and you critically break a number of important systems.

Strum Wealh, on 29 October 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

In the specific case of the Daishi: with Clan UAC/10s weighing 10 tons & consuming 4 criticals and Clan UAC/20s weighing 12 tons & consuming 8 criticals, the Daishi B (which starts with twin UAC/2s in each side-torso) would be able to equip twin UAC/10s in its side torsos even with all of the base equipment locked down and non-Omni hardpoints and the combination of that and the ballistic capabilities in the arms (from the Daishi Prime's UAC/5s) would indeed allow for quad-UAC/20s (which would come to a combined total of 48 tons and 32 criticals)... with only 2 tons of ammo (which would equate to a total of 14 individual shells under the current MWO values) to be shared by all four UACs and a single ER Small Laser or a single Flamer as the only possible backup weapons.

Fair enough, the first Daishi build I tossed out was excessive. A 2x10 and 2x20 build still throws out massive pinpoint damage, needing only 44 tons, freeing 4 more tons for ammo. 1x20 and 3x10 gets 2 more tons, and at a better ratio anyway. 3x20 is another option that leaves plenty of room for secondary weapons and ammo. Even 2x20 and 1x10 significantly exceeds the firepower of anything in the game presently.

Strum Wealh, on 29 October 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Which of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs have "significantly undersized" Engines?

• Loki: 325 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Black Hawk: 250 XL (81.0 kph)
  
• Puma: 210 XL (97.2 kph)
  
• Uller: 180 XL (97.2 kph)

Those 4 'mechs, with stock lockdowns are completely invalid in MWO. The Loki's stock armor is a guarantee for disaster (see the Jagermech). The Black Hawk will function, but will quickly be replaced by heavier 'mechs that can go just as fast, with more available space (See pre-buff hunchbacks). The Puma and Uller are worst off, they'll get run down by IS lights, out-fought by IS mediums, and bullseyed by IS heavies and assaults (see pre buff X-series ravens).

That's one third of the clan content gone the way of the Urbanmech.

Strum Wealh, on 29 October 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Also (and as noted above), the locking-down of the Engines and the other pre-equipped base components serves as an important limiter with regard to what can be loaded onto the OmniMechs.

As you mentioned, these lockdowns don't actually impact most of the clan omnimechs. This is the other half of my argument. If you cannot change the engine and armor, you divide omnimechs into 2 categories: the ones with GOOD locked stock parts, and the ones with BAD locked stock parts. The ones with GOOD locked stock parts are unaffected by the restriction. The Daishi could score a couple extra tons with Endo, so what? It's so close to perfect as is that there's not a huge loss. Plus, you get limitless power from being able to mix and match any weapon you like. Meanwhile the poor Puma has to go sit in the corner and eat paste with the Uller and the Loki.

note to pbiggz: I'm not ignoring you, I've just got limited time to reply, and you and sturm made most of the same points.

[pbiggz]

Finestaut, on 29 October 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

As you mentioned, these lockdowns don't actually impact most of the clan omnimechs. This is the other half of my argument. If you cannot change the engine and armor, you divide omnimechs into 2 categories: the ones with GOOD locked stock parts, and the ones with BAD locked stock parts. The ones with GOOD locked stock parts are unaffected by the restriction. The Daishi could score a couple extra tons with Endo, so what? It's so close to perfect as is that there's not a huge loss. Plus, you get limitless power from being able to mix and match any weapon you like. Meanwhile the poor Puma has to go sit in the corner and eat paste with the Uller and the Loki.

Dont forget that the adder carries 2 ER PPCs in its prime loadout. 2 clan ERPPCs both of which if un-nerfed do about as much damage as inner sphere gauss rifles and if nerfed do about as much damage as Inner Sphere PPCs which for a light mech is a FANTASTIC damage potential.

Also the hellbringer commonly takes extremely mean variants. It's prime variant is ok but the potential it has as an omnimech outweighs its fragility. It's by no means a brawler but it will hurt.

Edited by pbiggz, 29 October 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Finestaut]

pbiggz, on 29 October 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Dont forget that the adder carries 2 ER PPCs in its prime loadout. 2 clan ERPPCs both of which if un-nerfed do about as much damage as inner sphere gauss rifles and if nerfed do about as much damage as Inner Sphere PPCs which for a light mech is a FANTASTIC damage potential.

Also the hellbringer commonly takes extremely mean variants. It's prime variant is ok but the potential it has as an omnimech outweighs its fragility. It's by no means a brawler but it will hurt.

If either of these things were applicable in MWO, we'd be seeing jagermechs with stock armor, and 100kph ravens with big guns. Both of these build concepts have been thoroughly tested, and repeatedly debunked. There's a reason all IS light 'mechs were recently buffed to accept engines putting them at 130kph. There's also a reason everyone up-armors their Jaegermechs.

That's what works in this game.

[pbiggz]

Hell bringer also has ECM and an active probe...

[Morderian]

well i think to balance omni mechs in general we need minimu restrictions, lets take the Timber Wolf (Madcat) as example here i know some builds that you cold build in MWO that would be devastating on the Battlefield because with MWO hardpoint system you could just put in an very light engine and a lot of guns for an Alpha of 60+ pinpoint without penality.

be warned a lot of text ahead, i tryed to make it as easy to read as possible, but english is not my native language

how i see omni mechs (clan and IS omnis cause we may get IS omnis later):

first some things about the clans in General: they will not have standard Weapons like AC10 etc you can only use Ultra or LBX acs on you mechsame with energie weapons no standards just ER pulse etc.

well lets get to the the basics of every mechstructure armor and engine:

Engine: well the engine will be weight caped that means if our Timber Wolf is carrying an 375 XL engine that engine weights 26,5 ton, now if you want another kind of engine Std XXL or whatever you can put it in but it must weight 26,5 tons not less, you can put in heavier ones but that costs you omni tonnage

Armor: well armor has the same restrictions you need to put in an minimum Tonnage of armor dependig of the Mechs standard value you can not start with that mech with less tonnage in armor, you can of course put on lighter or heavier armor types so you can exchange ferro armor to standard armor if you want for more slots but you still need to have a minimum tonnage of armor the same is it vice versa, yes you can put in the lighter armor but you wont get tonnage benefits from it this option is mostly for very light armored mechs via TT rules which carry standard armr so you can put enough on it to survive our MWO Battlefields cause most of us arent like the standard TT pilot and actually will hit you with multiple weapons on the same spot.

Structure: here i was much thinking how to make it first i thought lock it but that wont be a good idea, you can freely change itlike now for more crit slots but that will cost you omni tonnage or you get more tonnage from it for our slots, i was long thinking about because of mechs like the Dire Wolf but i think most time the weight savings will get you nothing on such big mechs cause you dont have then the slots left to use it, its already hard enough fill an Atlas that you put an 300 XL on it with guns and DHS (actually sometimes to the point where SHS make more sense^^)

now to to equipment things like ams etc.

hard wired equipment: well if an mech in cannon carrys certain heatsinks jumpjets or any othe equipment hardwired it needs to be on the mech you cant start without it for instance the Turkina as far as i remember has jumpjets hardwired to it so you cant start without them

normal equipment: like Jumpjets, heatsinks, AMS etc. can be freely used on an omni mech just needing omni tonnage and having an certain limt for some thing like jumpjets

ECM: well this is a thing i am not sure about technicaly every omni can use it, so i have two diffrent ideas:
1- give using ECM an Penalty like less money no faction standing etc.
2- only light mechs can use it disrupt mode on anything heavier it will be locked to counter mode


well the second most important thing on the list and the Point most people like... Weapons

Hardpoints: well omni mechs will have no Hardpoints their you can put in what you desire for the price of your Omni tonnage, i think this is better then limt it to Hardpoints because even of you have hardpoints can do alot of insane things just because most Omnimechs carry a lot of guns and those who dont are then more or less useless, i mean think about an Timber Wolf 2 ERPPC and 2 Gauss rifles for that just an very small engine instead of the 375XL no i think i dont want to see such an config, atleast not without that it has high heat or ammo problems and with that balancing the high firepower

Heat penality: well for omnis the heat penaltys will be a lot stricter you can fire the same amount of guns but if you now fire 3 ERPPC you wont go up to 80% like an AWS 9M, you will shut down and get heat damage so people must think about what they pack in their Omnis to not kill themself

Mixtech: only omni mechs will get mixtech and only when IS omnis are in the game they also are debuffed when not used in mechs that are not of the same "faction" with things like less ammo for ACs more Heat for PPC and Laser, higher jamchance and also only weapons can be mixed no engines no heatsinks etc.

Energy: actually a thing i would like to have for all mechs, simply every mech has an energy of 100 (maybe less for mechs when the carry an ECM or something like that), firing wepons will reduce it, it will recharge after lets say 0,5 seconds, you can not fire an weapon if you dont have the energy for it,here some ideas what the energy cost of weapons could be:

PPCs: 33 ( simply because i had an Awesome in mind after thinking about it and he needs his 3ppc)

Gauss: 50 (first it was 60 but i changed it because of the Charge mechanic because now firing 2 Gauss after 0,5 is not doable because chain fire doesnt work with them)

Large laser: 30

AC20: 40 (for every shot, an UAC will use the same amount when used in Ultra mode so 1 UAC 20 will be your whole energy for 0,5 seconds)


now after the list of ideas for the Guns lets come to the lastpoint Mech quirks:

every omnimech version will get certain quirls which are designed to their standard configs like less energy cost or eased heatpenalty better turning time etc.

Edited by Morderian, 29 October 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Gumon Choji]

There were rules to cross tech that came from a Solaris 5 based book. There was a chance of something similar to a jam on ac 5 that would happen in game. but one of the biggest weaknesses of the clan mechs were the inability to punch and use hand to hand weapons of real value. One ax or sword swing on a high heat build and pow.

[Finestaut]

pbiggz, on 29 October 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Hell bringer also has ECM and an active probe...

Now that's something I hadn't considered. Checking around some old forum posts, it looks like the Hellbringer, Kit Fox, and Mist Lynx are the canonical clan ECM 'mechs. This means they have no answer to the -D-DC, which is interesting.

I don't think this solves the stock armored Hellbringer's issues. Under armored is still under armored, and under engined is still under engined. No one's going to be taking a Hellbringer or Kit Fox for ECM, when there's the Mist Lynx, which isn't completely hobbled by it's locked equipment.

[pbiggz]

Finestaut, on 29 October 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Now that's something I hadn't considered. Checking around some old forum posts, it looks like the Hellbringer, Kit Fox, and Mist Lynx are the canonical clan ECM 'mechs. This means they have no answer to the -D-DC, which is interesting.

I don't think this solves the stock armored Hellbringer's issues. Under armored is still under armored, and under engined is still under engined. No one's going to be taking a Hellbringer or Kit Fox for ECM, when there's the Mist Lynx, which isn't completely hobbled by it's locked equipment.

I'm not sure NOONE will, but its definately something they will have to look into and deal with. Hopefully they're up to the task and while they have messed stuff up in the past I am optimistic, I think they've been working on clan game design for a long time.

[Finestaut]

pbiggz, on 29 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

I'm not sure NOONE will, but its definately something they will have to look into and deal with. Hopefully they're up to the task and while they have messed stuff up in the past I am optimistic, I think they've been working on clan game design for a long time.

Agreed. Which is why I can't believe they'll stray too far from what works.

I feel that the current mechlab offers the maximum customization the game can handle. Open it further for weapons, and you open the door for abuse. Tighten the restrictions elsewhere and you send some mechs to the scrap heap.

If you can't change the core mechlab rules for omnis, what's left? You've got the ominmech ability to hot swap. If they keep the hardpoints, and let you switch between saved loadouts as the match is beginning, you offer a logistical advantage to clan players, without ruining the game balance in the process. It also preserves the idea of variants, and the associated progression. It's really the only thing that makes sense.