Jump to content

The Delusions Of Player Communication Requests


8 replies to this topic

#1 ZenWarrior

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Big Brother
  • Big Brother
  • 41 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

Saw this posted online, thought everyone should read.

Last week, an article went up on our sister site, EQHammer.com, entitled “Silence Isn’t Golden” and talked about all the reasons players think developer communication is a joke. Some complaints pointed out were that X Company doesn’t communicate enough. Players are tired of feeling like they’re being kept at arm’s length. They don’t understand why their important questions are not being answered and have determined that this “needs to stop immediately”.
As a former Community Coordinator for BioWare and ArenaNet, I'm here to give you some bad news. It’s not going to happen. I agree that in a perfect world, it would be awesome if developers could take time every day and respond to player posts, read the forums, and share the long-term goals of the game they’re working on. The sad reality though is that while communication between developers and players can change and improve, until there's a shift in human behavior on the internet, it will never happen.
There are a number of reasons for this, but let’s start off with just a few. For starters, just because someone is a great programmer or designer does not mean they’re good at communicating with fans. For example, I worked with one developer that was a mathematical genius and thought he was funny, but sent a set of forums into a complete meltdown when he started trolling the players. He wasn’t trying to, he just failed to understand how things come across differently in the written word so that’s the way his posts came across. He was also far too opinionated to be a voice of reason in the middle of an angry mob.
Companies hire community professionals for a reason, not the least of which is our ability to deal with players on a daily basis without sending them into an uproar. At least that’s true for most days. Like it or not, the amount of vitriol any community team deals with on a daily basis would send most people into a black pit of depression they would never emerge from. Developers are skilled in their professions, but many do not handle hatred and vicious comments well – to the point that I’ve seen some leave for days because they were so hurt by the words of their “fans”.
And yes, I put the fans above in quotation marks. I can’t count the amount of times players have used the forums or private message systems to write some of the most horrific things about developers and their families that you can imagine. Most of these comments make the whole Penny Arcade Dickwolves fiasco sound like a story you’d read to little children to help them go to sleep at night. Most developers are not wired to handle that kind of hatred. And yes, before you ask, of course the community team does everything they can to keep the forums clean and amicable.
So far, this sounds like a rant fest, eh? The good news is that the majority of any game’s players never set foot on the forums and those that do are actually pretty good people. The problem comes in the form of perspective though. Keep in mind that with some of these games, like SWTOR, we were dealing with over a million forum users. Literally - over 1 million. Hundreds of thousands of posts were made every single day at one point. Even if only 1% of those posts are hate-filled diatribes (and the percentage will always be higher than that, no matter what game you’re talking about), that means that out of 200,000 posts, that’s still 2,000 posts that need to be cleaned up or removed. In the scheme of things, that doesn’t sound like much, but it doesn’t take too many rotten apples to spoil the bunch.
Forgetting the angry posters for a while, let’s talk about the developers themselves. I can tell you from personal experience that a large number of them would love to answer tons of questions on the forums. For the sake of argument, let’s assume they even had the time to do so (which they really don’t). Let’s even assume that we’re not talking about them going through the forums themselves, but are just responding to the forum posts forwarded to them each day by the members of the community team. 99% of all questions have to do with one of two things – something that isn’t working or something players want to see in the game.

file:///C:\Users\KELLYA~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg


In the case of something that isn’t working, I guarantee that if there’s already a thread about it, the development team is aware of it. There are systems in place that continually monitor and analyze player behavior. As a result, it doesn’t take long to discover when something went wrong with the latest patch. In these instances, community team members will normally either combine threads (which gets messy) or select one main thread, let the players know X bug is being worked on, and close all the others. It’s not a matter of censorship or that they hate you, it’s because they’re trying to keep things organized so people coming to the forums can see what’s going on. In the case of old bugs, again, the team is well aware.
Despite what some people think, posting a message of “We know it’s broken and will implement a fix as soon as we can” gets old to players, quickly - especially when that bug persists for months on end. Like it or not, all bugs are prioritized and quite often repeatedly get pushed to the next patch because more impactful bugs have been discovered. Eventually, they may even be deemed minor enough to be listed as “Not going to fix” because of the cost versus return investment isn’t worth it. I know that to you it’s a big deal that sometimes when you fire your Bow of Awesomeness within 5 feet of a cavern wall inside the Dungeon of Doom and it heals an enemy instead of doing its appropriate damage. Sadly though, that bug may only affect less than 0.0001% of the game’s population and the cost to fix it just isn’t worth it. I know it sucks, but it’s the truth.
In terms of players posting about something they’d like to see in game, the ones that gather enough interest from the community team, individual developers that periodically scan the forums (though rare, they do exist), or from other players, are sent on to the appropriate development team. When it comes to something cool being added into a game, developers cannot wait to tell everyone about it. I’ve seen developers get something into a workable state and are salivating at the mouth so much in anticipation of letting players know about it that they nearly drown. Once again though, they’re not allowed to and for a good reason.
Let’s say a developer made the following statement in a forum post - “The team is working on this awesome new feature called Bazoola Woogle Hunting. The design discussions are going great so far, but it’s still on the drawing board. I can’t promise anything will come of it, but hopefully we’ll be able to show the community more about it soon.” There are so many reasons the community team on hand would cringe at this that they’re hard to process, but let me point out a few.
Rule number one – I know “soon” to the player base means a couple weeks, but in development speak, that can easily be six months or more. Remember, these people may have been working on this project for years. To them, six months is nothing.
Rule number two – “I can’t promise anything” gets translated to “I promise it will be in the game soon” within a matter of minutes on various boards the statement gets forwarded to.
Rule number three – Rules one and two are the creators of “The Company Lied To Us!" syndrome.
I realize this article may seem a little harsh, but these are some of the realities of communicating with developers and game companies in general. Does that mean there aren’t ways to improve communication? Absolutely not. It does mean that a utopia of players always being aware of everything a company is working on will never come to pass though.

#2 Sandpit

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 17,419 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationArkansas

Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

This is already in another thread

#3 IC Rafe

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 79 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

Largely correct, but if a company litterally posts: we will never do x, several times, and then does it, that company loses a lot of credibility in my eyes. That means either the persons giving the communication get fed lies inside the company, they just dont know or are told to lie to potential clients. This is the worst kind of communication that can be given, and which has happened in this game. (offcource no info is given except for outside news sources and the developers ngngtv twitch channel.)

In the "kickstarter" founder program, they explicitaly said that they would provide info, and they actually had a timeline, but they stopped it once it was clear that nothing on it was going as planned, so now we are in a situation where the game is out of beta, with none of the features it was supposed to have, and several features which where guaranteed never to enter the game.

#4 culverin

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 98 posts
  • LocationVancouver

Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:58 AM

Uber Ent seems to be doing rather well for their community communication...

The game manager/designer, and a couple of their lead programmers are on the board.
They talk to us.
Tell us what can and cannot happen and why.

Participate in threads and crack jokes.

They are doing approximately weekly builds and tweaks.


Game launches in December.

I can pretty much guarantee you that it's not just going to be a "beta sticker is coming off" scenario.

#5 Alaskan Nobody

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 10,358 posts
  • LocationAlaska!

Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

View Postculverin, on 17 October 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Uber Ent seems to be doing rather well for their community communication...

The game manager/designer, and a couple of their lead programmers are on the board.
They talk to us.
Tell us what can and cannot happen and why.

Participate in threads and crack jokes.

They are doing approximately weekly builds and tweaks.


Game launches in December.

I can pretty much guarantee you that it's not just going to be a "beta sticker is coming off" scenario.


They are also not working on an IP owned by Micro$oft - and we all know how WONDERFUL Micro$oft treats it's customers :D

(I include IGP and PGI in that as Micro$oft customers, as they are paying Micro$oft $ for a product)

P.S. - did I mention the $ in Micro$oft? That wonderful company we have to thank for that WONDERFUL game known as the last entry in the Battletech video game list known as Mechassault?

Yeah. :)

#6 Bront

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 4,212 posts
  • LocationInternet

Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:22 AM

Devs and game companies are in an ugly position.

Become too open about what's going on, and people get (often unrealistic) expectations, and often things change for reasons well beyond the dev's control. The end result is that folks call the company a liar, particularly if it's even just a dev who said something where he had no place to.

Keep too closed, and people wonder why the company is silent. Are they ignoring issues? Are they ignoring the fan base? Are they gone and we just don't know it yet? It angers fans who want more information and like the exclusive inside peaks and news to look forward to.

One of the best examples of trying to walk that fine line was the company that developed one of the more successfull rhythm/music games 6-7 years ago. They had weekly song releases planned an average of 6 months in advance, but rarely would announce them more than a week early after several PR blunders where they said they had something too early and were unable to deliver for reasons beyond their control (Song masters missing or not usable, licensing got pulled on them, someone involved causing issues, etc), and often were unable to talk about why something happened (because making the people involved angry wasn't a good idea for future success). Even then, fans would pick at things they said years prior, or things random people associated with the company would say in unrelated interviews, and then hold them up as expecations of things to come. Ultimately they reached a nice balance of being candid while also being guarded, but it took years, and even then, not everyone was happy.

Ultimately, it's safer to err on the side of being cautious about what is said vs being too open, as the risks are greater about being open. It's sad for us fans of a game, but that's how it ends up working out.

#7 Roadbeer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 8,160 posts
  • LocationWazan, Zion Cluster

Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

OP combining that and THIS...

Never mind, Fourmites will always behave the same, which is equal parts Chicken Little and and the universal reaction to when Spock died.

Helluva thing when Spock died.

#8 Ensaine

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 831 posts
  • LocationOn a frozen rock .....

Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostZenWarrior, on 16 October 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Saw this posted online, thought everyone should read.

Last week, an article went up on our sister site, EQHammer.com, entitled “Silence Isn’t Golden” and talked about all the reasons players think developer communication is a joke. Some complaints pointed out were that X Company doesn’t communicate enough. Players are tired of feeling like they’re being kept at arm’s length. They don’t understand why their important questions are not being answered and have determined that this “needs to stop immediately”.
As a former Community Coordinator for BioWare and ArenaNet, I'm here to give you some bad news. It’s not going to happen. I agree that in a perfect world, it would be awesome if developers could take time every day and respond to player posts, read the forums, and share the long-term goals of the game they’re working on. The sad reality though is that while communication between developers and players can change and improve, until there's a shift in human behavior on the internet, it will never happen.
There are a number of reasons for this, but let’s start off with just a few. For starters, just because someone is a great programmer or designer does not mean they’re good at communicating with fans. For example, I worked with one developer that was a mathematical genius and thought he was funny, but sent a set of forums into a complete meltdown when he started trolling the players. He wasn’t trying to, he just failed to understand how things come across differently in the written word so that’s the way his posts came across. He was also far too opinionated to be a voice of reason in the middle of an angry mob.
Companies hire community professionals for a reason, not the least of which is our ability to deal with players on a daily basis without sending them into an uproar. At least that’s true for most days. Like it or not, the amount of vitriol any community team deals with on a daily basis would send most people into a black pit of depression they would never emerge from. Developers are skilled in their professions, but many do not handle hatred and vicious comments well – to the point that I’ve seen some leave for days because they were so hurt by the words of their “fans”.
And yes, I put the fans above in quotation marks. I can’t count the amount of times players have used the forums or private message systems to write some of the most horrific things about developers and their families that you can imagine. Most of these comments make the whole Penny Arcade Dickwolves fiasco sound like a story you’d read to little children to help them go to sleep at night. Most developers are not wired to handle that kind of hatred. And yes, before you ask, of course the community team does everything they can to keep the forums clean and amicable.
So far, this sounds like a rant fest, eh? The good news is that the majority of any game’s players never set foot on the forums and those that do are actually pretty good people. The problem comes in the form of perspective though. Keep in mind that with some of these games, like SWTOR, we were dealing with over a million forum users. Literally - over 1 million. Hundreds of thousands of posts were made every single day at one point. Even if only 1% of those posts are hate-filled diatribes (and the percentage will always be higher than that, no matter what game you’re talking about), that means that out of 200,000 posts, that’s still 2,000 posts that need to be cleaned up or removed. In the scheme of things, that doesn’t sound like much, but it doesn’t take too many rotten apples to spoil the bunch.
Forgetting the angry posters for a while, let’s talk about the developers themselves. I can tell you from personal experience that a large number of them would love to answer tons of questions on the forums. For the sake of argument, let’s assume they even had the time to do so (which they really don’t). Let’s even assume that we’re not talking about them going through the forums themselves, but are just responding to the forum posts forwarded to them each day by the members of the community team. 99% of all questions have to do with one of two things – something that isn’t working or something players want to see in the game.

file:///C:UsersKELLYA~1AppDataLocalTempmsohtmlclip11clip_image002.jpg




In the case of something that isn’t working, I guarantee that if there’s already a thread about it, the development team is aware of it. There are systems in place that continually monitor and analyze player behavior. As a result, it doesn’t take long to discover when something went wrong with the latest patch. In these instances, community team members will normally either combine threads (which gets messy) or select one main thread, let the players know X bug is being worked on, and close all the others. It’s not a matter of censorship or that they hate you, it’s because they’re trying to keep things organized so people coming to the forums can see what’s going on. In the case of old bugs, again, the team is well aware.
Despite what some people think, posting a message of “We know it’s broken and will implement a fix as soon as we can” gets old to players, quickly - especially when that bug persists for months on end. Like it or not, all bugs are prioritized and quite often repeatedly get pushed to the next patch because more impactful bugs have been discovered. Eventually, they may even be deemed minor enough to be listed as “Not going to fix” because of the cost versus return investment isn’t worth it. I know that to you it’s a big deal that sometimes when you fire your Bow of Awesomeness within 5 feet of a cavern wall inside the Dungeon of Doom and it heals an enemy instead of doing its appropriate damage. Sadly though, that bug may only affect less than 0.0001% of the game’s population and the cost to fix it just isn’t worth it. I know it sucks, but it’s the truth.
In terms of players posting about something they’d like to see in game, the ones that gather enough interest from the community team, individual developers that periodically scan the forums (though rare, they do exist), or from other players, are sent on to the appropriate development team. When it comes to something cool being added into a game, developers cannot wait to tell everyone about it. I’ve seen developers get something into a workable state and are salivating at the mouth so much in anticipation of letting players know about it that they nearly drown. Once again though, they’re not allowed to and for a good reason.
Let’s say a developer made the following statement in a forum post - “The team is working on this awesome new feature called Bazoola Woogle Hunting. The design discussions are going great so far, but it’s still on the drawing board. I can’t promise anything will come of it, but hopefully we’ll be able to show the community more about it soon.” There are so many reasons the community team on hand would cringe at this that they’re hard to process, but let me point out a few.
Rule number one – I know “soon” to the player base means a couple weeks, but in development speak, that can easily be six months or more. Remember, these people may have been working on this project for years. To them, six months is nothing.
Rule number two – “I can’t promise anything” gets translated to “I promise it will be in the game soon” within a matter of minutes on various boards the statement gets forwarded to.
Rule number three – Rules one and two are the creators of “The Company Lied To Us!" syndrome.
I realize this article may seem a little harsh, but these are some of the realities of communicating with developers and game companies in general. Does that mean there aren’t ways to improve communication? Absolutely not. It does mean that a utopia of players always being aware of everything a company is working on will never come to pass though.


I see this is a copy paste, and the OP isn't the originator.. BUT .......paste this back to him then.....

Well, an EAWare guy comes out.........

Dude, first off, I'd hide the fact I was involved in the SW:ToRTanic fiasco if I were you. What happened to that game was one of the biggest failures in MMORPG history. How any company let an IP like Star Wars fail is beyond me. I was there from Closed Beta, early, in fact.

If people want to complain about a product, how is it done any differently than one who complains about a game? Like those new shoes, you bring them back to the store. If you like the store's policy on returns, you get a different set of shoes, or your money back. If you don;t like the return policy, you escalate, to whatever degree fits you.

I really love the argument what x-LOW percentage of the userbase are on the forums, so, the forum environment isn't representative.

Baloney. If say 50% of the game playerbase is unhappy with X, then the same simple ratio applies to the forum user base.

Scenario:
10,000 people playing the game. 50% (5000 people) are unhappy with X.
If only 1000 people use the forums, expect an unhappiness with X level to be around 50%.

Of course, if you abide by EAWare's CM manual, then the above scenario is false.

So, those who are unhappy with X, can do only so many things:
Write an email, get cookie cutter response.
Stop playing the game, and stop flow of funds.
Biyatch on the forums, and knock stuff over, because we care about the franchise, unlike EAWare. Like MWO, I had a great many hopes and ambitions for SW: ToRTanic. Going from AAA MMORPG Play to Play to F2P in less than a year is why I'd not admit any affiliation with that massive failure.

The 2 doctor's ran like hell........

Edited by Ensaine, 20 October 2013 - 05:07 AM.


#9 Oppi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • LocationCologne, Germany

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:43 AM

Quote

Scenario:
10,000 people playing the game. 50% (5000 people) are unhappy with X.
If only 1000 people use the forums, expect an unhappiness with X level to be around 50%.


Wrong. People who are unhappy with something go to forums and complain, people who are happy just play the game during that time. So the "Level of unhappiness" among active forum posters will always be higher than the overall unhappiness in the playerbase (unless all players are active forum posters, in which case both numbers will of course be equal).





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users