59 replies to this topic

[Pale Jackal]

I must say, I am astounded by how awful SHS are.

Just bought a Spider 5V to go through the tiresome grind of leveling up trash 'mechs, though I do appreciate the speed buff in yesterday's patch, and didn't buy DHS or Endo-steel for my Spider yet because, hey, how much heat can two medium lasers generate?

Evidently, when 10 SHS dissipates about 1% heat every 2 seconds while moving on Terra Therma, those medium lasers generate a lot of heat.

I had no 'mech efficiencies either, but wow, I feel for all the noobs who want to play MWO. I knew it was bad, I didn't know it was THAT bad.

[TercieI]

Yeah, I limped the 5V through basic the same way. It's rough. Double XP for first win, see ya tomorrow. You could also ditch some JJ for more SHS, that might help. I think I ran with 8, could've cut to 4 and two more SHS. Why am I thinking of this now? <roll eyes>

S

[DEMAX51]

I used SHS on one game in my Locust yesterday - 1 medium laser and 4 MGs. The heat was AWFUL.

[Training Instructor]

SHS are great for mechs that only have enough weight to mount zero heat weapons like machine guns.

[Deathlike]

On Mordor, DHS is virtually mandatory.

DHS is teh precious.

[Alistair Winter]

My favourite part is when you're waiting for the heat levels to drop down to 20-30% again.

"Oops, overheating already? Well, I'll just wait a little bit.... and some more... and... I'll just... ok, a bit more, I guess? Hmm, it's down to 90%. Great."

I didn't consider that buying 6 mechs also meant that I immediately had to fork out 7,5 million C-bills on DHS just to avoid self-combustion when I fired a few lasers.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 16 October 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[Grrzoot]

Alistair Winter, on 16 October 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

My favourite part is when you're waiting for the heat levels to drop down to 20-30% again.

"Oops, overheating already? Well, I'll just wait a little bit.... and some more... and... I'll just... ok, a bit more, I guess? Hmm, it's down to 90%. Great."

I didn't consider that buying 6 mechs also meant that I immediately had to fork out 7,5 million C-bills on DHS just to avoid self-combustion when I fired a few lasers.

i figured 27.5 million to make the mechs usefull, not including sold original components, so i was saving for awhile...

[Psikez]

Let me tell you of the days of ONLY SINGLE HEAT SINKS when the gauss k2 roamed the lands and the forums were filled with tears of rage at the almighty gauss rifle

[MandoZ]

Psikez, on 16 October 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Let me tell you of the days of ONLY SINGLE HEAT SINKS when the gauss k2 roamed the lands and the forums were filled with tears of rage at the almighty gauss rifle

Haha, those were the days. PPC heat was so high that they were a lot more useless than ERPPC is now and you actually saw light lasers used quite a bit.

[General Taskeen]

Psikez, on 16 October 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Let me tell you of the days of ONLY SINGLE HEAT SINKS when the gauss k2 roamed the lands and the forums were filled with tears of rage at the almighty gauss rifle

We could go back further in time if you wish - back in the Land Before Mech Warrior Time of Mech Warrior 3, where SHS actually worked on stock builds. Totally Weird Man...

Also, I'm surprised some people are just realizing this.

You can look at how the heat system has disparities by testing it at this link (unfortunately it doesn't account for the ambient temperature of maps): http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Standard Engine 240 SHS - 9 Int/1 Ext - Heat Capacity 40 - 2 Medium Lasers - 7 Seconds Cooling Time
Standard Engine 240 DHS - 9 Int (.2)/1 Ext (0.14) - Heat Capacity 49.5 (can fire more) - 2 Medium Lasers - 3.1 Seconds Cooling Time

And the more heat-sinks you have, the more disparity you have between Mechs with minimalist loadouts and very little heat sinks.

Standard Engine 300 SHS - 10 Int/31 Ext - all skills elited - Heat Capacity 85 More Alpha's? You got it! (mister 10SHS 2 ML doesn't stand a chance) (41 SHS only works good with an Atlas and 4 PPC's, but I'm showing this example that the heatsinks are raising the capacity which widens the disparity between builds, rather than having a similar heat capacity for all Mechs)

Standard Engine 300 DHS - 10 Int(.2)/8 Ext(.14) - all skills elited - Heat Capacity 73.44

Technically cooling 2ML should be no sweat for 10SHS in TT. 10DHS just meant you could pack on a heck of a lot more medium lasers and maybe fire a lot more at a time (Example 6 total), since that is the equivalent of 20SHS, while saving weight on heat sinks.

In their total effort to make MWO "heat" like "tt heat capacity" - it doesn't actually work out in a real-time game. You know, something that other Mech Warrior games realized...

That is why "High Alpha Warrior (rinse and repeat)" online exists in the first place in MWO, and consequently why Stock Mechs have an incredibly rough time.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 October 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In their total effort to make MWO "heat" like "tt heat capacity" - it doesn't actually work out in a real-time game. You know, something that other Mech Warrior games realized...

Actually its quite easy to implement TT heatscale into a real-time game. Thats never been the problem with MW games.

The problem is that MW games allow precise aiming of weapons which is a huge divergence from TT which has random hit locations.

[Xanquil]

The SHS issue was brought up many times in beta. (open and closed) We were told to "wait until DHS are put in and we'll balance them then." well we all know that didn't happen. To bring heat closer to TT SHS would have to be get rid of heat closer to what DHS (in engine) do, and DHS would need to do 2x that. But until pinpoint accuracy weapons are changed we all know that isn't going to happen.

[SirLANsalot]

Xanquil, on 16 October 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

The SHS issue was brought up many times in beta. (open and closed) We were told to "wait until DHS are put in and we'll balance them then." well we all know that didn't happen. To bring heat closer to TT SHS would have to be get rid of heat closer to what DHS (in engine) do, and DHS would need to do 2x that. But until pinpoint accuracy weapons are changed we all know that isn't going to happen.

How many times do you need to be told Pinpoint accuracy isn't an issue and should stop being toted around like its some big imbalance issue. You as a PLAYER are responsible for what happens when you shoot things, not some random {Scrap} up dice roll.


SHS needs to have better dissipation then DHS, or vice versa. So that as a PLAYER you have a choice on what you want to do with your mech. Do you: A: Want low cap but high dissipation or B: Want high Cap but low dissipation. This would mean that certain mechs would benefit better form one system or the other, Awesomes would benefit from high cap but low dissipation with there PPC builds. However LRM and Pluse Laser builds would be better off with low cap, but higher dissipation.

That is what SHS and DHS need to do. (SHS high cap low diss and DHS low cap high diss)

Edited by SirLANsalot, 16 October 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Khobai, on 16 October 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Actually its quite easy to implement TT heatscale into a real-time game. Thats never been the problem with MW games.

The problem is that MW games allow precise aiming of weapons which is a huge divergence from TT which has random hit locations.

If that's easy Khobai, then why didn't they do it the "easy way" (aka, the better way), like MW2/3/4/LL in terms of "heat scaling." (the fixed scale)

You could not fire 80 heat worth of weaponry and get away without shutting down in previous Mech Warrior games. It was impossible. You could build funny stuff and explode your Mech for the effort though.

The bottom line is that heatsinks have been reversed from their roles in that game and this is the only game where -> The more heatsinks you have, the more you can fire until shut down, which widens the gap between the actual "heat neutral" stock builds and the maxed up Mechs of MWO with the highest heat capacity possible.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 October 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[FupDup]

SirLANsalot, on 16 October 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

How many times do you need to be told Pinpoint accuracy isn't an issue and should stop being toted around like its some big imbalance issue. You as a PLAYER are responsible for what happens when you shoot things, not some random {Scrap} up dice roll.

Well, our armor system was based on that random dice system, so removing the dice means we should probably tweak the armor so that it can better handle aiming, or we can do something like Homeless Bill's idea that tweaks the aiming (but without resorting to random factors). Another thing we could do is to use damage spreading mechanics such as beam duration to reduce the amount of frontloaded damage (ballistics may need to be split into multiple shells, PPCs can get an "arc" like splash effect for spread damage, dunno what to do about Gauss though).

[Xanquil]

SirLANsalot, on 16 October 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

How many times do you need to be told Pinpoint accuracy isn't an issue and should stop being toted around like its some big imbalance issue. You as a PLAYER are responsible for what happens when you shoot things, not some random {Scrap} up dice roll.

Probably until it isn't one any more. Don't get me wrong, I love abusing the hit location system with pinpoint weapons as much as the next person. But I also understand the IP that MW:O is made from. I also have a firm understanding why every good FPS has some form of cone of fire. To make it simple it is called play balance. Oh and by the way even the devs understand that pinpoint convergence is an issue, just check some of the older ask the devs.

[Lightfoot]

MWO's engine DHS dissapate heat like earlier MechWarrior game's single heatsinks.

It's okay to have the heatsinks reach maximum quickly if they dissapate it quickly. That allows you to balance weapon firing. MWO's heatsinks just block energy use.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 16 October 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

MWO's engine DHS dissapate heat like earlier MechWarrior game's single heatsinks.

It's okay to have the heatsinks reach maximum quickly if they dissapate it quickly. That allows you to balance weapon firing. MWO's heatsinks just block energy use.

MWO's sinks don't dissipate it quickly, which is where many of our problems arise from (including energy weapon issues).

[DrSecretStache]

Xanquil, on 16 October 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Probably until it isn't one any more. Don't get me wrong, I love abusing the hit location system with pinpoint weapons as much as the next person. But I also understand the IP that MW:O is made from. I also have a firm understanding why every good FPS has some form of cone of fire. To make it simple it is called play balance. Oh and by the way even the devs understand that pinpoint convergence is an issue, just check some of the older ask the devs.

I personally don't feel that it would make sense in this game. At least in most FPS's, we're playing human beings, which are total spazzes (admit it) when it comes to holding something still, and use guns that actually don't fire every bullet in a straight line IRL. In MW, we're in machines that are hulking tons of metal that have computers that are a thousand years advanced from us.
Granted, realism isn't exactly perpetuated in FPSs or MW, but still, suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

Besides, cone of fire would be DOA since high pinpoint alphas are exactly that, only one barrage, and adding a random firing mechanic to every shot would just make people mad because they can't hit everything. I'd much rather an overhaul to the armor system over some sort of artificial decrease in accuracy.

Not that anyone is going to be convinced otherwise to what they already believe.

On topic, I can totally sympathize. Two of three of my locusts are absolutely useless until I manage to get the funds to upgrade to DHS.

Edited by Zoughtbaj, 16 October 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[Xanquil]

The fact that SHS are so bad is one of the reasons the DHS seem like a required upgrade. I would love to see the heat cap cut in half (15+.5 per SHS, or 1 per DHS)and dissipation doubled. I also would love to see in engine DHS and out of engine DHS made the same. Too much of a punishment to light mechs.