89 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Purlana, on 17 October 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I expect that when CW comes most of the pre-mades will be too busy to play with you guys anyway. (Unless they can't field 12)

When that happens, the queues will not be so messy, except for the occasional premade that needs to grind.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I pug about 60% of my matches and that is likely to increase as Ive recently resigned from my old unit. That being said I vote no to this concept. It is a teambased game. While I deplore PGIs lack of effort in implementing a VoiP or more intuitive, easy to use group/leadership management system I do not think having pure pug queue solves anything. It will remain a team oriented game so I think they need to work on making that aspect easier to access and implement. Not further degrade the already limited tactical aspect of teamwork by catering to non teamwork oriented people. I do my best to be team oriented when I pug, in my piloting even when Im not using teamchat but dont cry when premades roll us or we lose because no one took charge. I dont expect pugs to be mind readers when they dont do exactly what I want them to do but fail to tell anyone. If you pug and dont lead you should take your lumps for it. Its a team game. This idea just degrades that aspect further.

[Homeless Bill]

Deathlike, on 17 October 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Your ELO is too high. Nerf it with the following mechs:
Locust
Trebuchet
Dragon
Awesome

I don't believe for a second I've got a particularly high Elo. Plus, I maintain my WLR in Trebuchets and beat my average in Awesomes. Locust or bust.

Deathlike, on 17 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Isn't it somewhat kinda selfish to expect that waiting a little longer for a match is a bad thing? Yes, I want to get those c-bills faster like the next guy, but playing better doesn't make the MM's job easier.

It's worse to me that having spent that time, I'm being roflstomped or doing the roflstomping. It doesn't feel like grinding, but being more aware of the woeful nature of the MM because I'm not getting an enjoyable experience.

Well, it's probably true with the state of the game. Perhaps a ladder and non-ladder queue would be better? I dunno... it would be nicer to improve the new user experience so the queues would at least increase instead of the "buy MC or suffer" syndrome.

The entire solo vs premade thing is a lot more mental than it is an actual issue. If people were willing to communicate and listen, you wouldn't have so many lopsided games, where people get picked off on their own and never realize that focus firing is the key to success. Oh wait, I thought there were tutorials for this... my bad.

It depends entirely on personal preference. For me, I'd rather get roflstomped and attempt to carry once every four matches than lose an additional a match's worth of time every three matches.

What it comes down to, unfortunately, is a lot of things PGI needs to implement before things get better. We need a command circle (spot enemy, designate target, push, pull back, form up on me, etc.), integrated voice communication, tonnage matching, the ability to pick 'mechs after seeing the map, and/or faction-tied matches to see an improvement in the quality of games.

Quite a few times last night my premade got eaten alive because we committed to a push while the PUGs toed the water. It's not their fault, and it's just difficult to communicate through text, "Hey, we'll be digging into their rear lines in 15 seconds; push or die slowly."

In addition to the alternate causes, I believe that a separate queue would wreak havoc on their plans to make PUG matches faction vs faction. I see separate queues as a big band-aid. They're working on a large overhaul of the way matchmaking works, it seems, and I'd rather just wait and let it play out.

TL;DR: It's been bad for a long time; it might as well stay bad for another couple months while they implement things we need.

[NinetyProof]

Seriously, the OP makes the assumption, yet again, that 4-mans >> pugs. Sorry, I would say the majority of 4 mans are terrible. They either have terrible builds, are terrible pilots, take vastly different mechs, and/or spread out all over the map, etc,etc, etc. Yes, organized 4 mans with a decent Lance Leader coordinating over VOIP makes a big difference. But that is not all 4 mans, and ELO should take care of that and put another decent 4 man on the other side.

The reality with suggestions like this is they ignore the biggest problems with balance. One of the biggest issues is Mech Builds and Efficiencies. Unless you start to "rate" builds + "efficiencies" your still gonna have terrible matches if one side has terrible builds without even basics, yet the other side has great builds + mastered + good modules.

So, lets stop being naive and wasting electrons with simpleton solutions to complex problems that simply will not help.

Fact is, ELO is the way to deal with the issue ... the problem is not ELO, the problem is that ELO doesn't know how good the mechs are, and ELO can't make players of equal skill level be looking for games at the same time.

More Players are needed, and a Mech Rating system to adjust ELO numbers are needed ... anything else and your just fooling yourself.

[Roadbeer]

Homeless Bill, on 17 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

TL;DR: It's been bad for a long time; it might as well stay bad for another couple months while they implement things we need.

Now THIS I can get on board with.

If you give me a choice of Current vs Solo/premade queue, I'm going to choose the latter.
But if you give me a choice between Solo/premade vs wait patiently for CW and see what other options will present themselves, then I'm of the mind of everyone shutting the hell up, since the metagame has only barely begun being discussed.

[Deathlike]

Homeless Bill, on 17 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

I don't believe for a second I've got a particularly high Elo. Plus, I maintain my WLR in Trebuchets and beat my average in Awesomes. Locust or bust.

Congrats, I cannot say that I enjoyed either.

Quote

It depends entirely on personal preference. For me, I'd rather get roflstomped and attempt to carry once every four matches than lose an additional a match's worth of time every three matches.

Unfortunately, I'm forced to carry practically every other match as a solo PUG. I don't even want to know why I'm being trolled.

Quote

What it comes down to, unfortunately, is a lot of things PGI needs to implement before things get better. We need a command circle (spot enemy, designate target, push, pull back, form up on me, etc.), integrated voice communication, tonnage matching, the ability to pick 'mechs after seeing the map, and/or faction-tied matches to see an improvement in the quality of games.

Agreed on some of these points. In game communication (voice or macros) would improve things significantly.

Quote

Quite a few times last night my premade got eaten alive because we committed to a push while the PUGs toed the water. It's not their fault, and it's just difficult to communicate through text, "Hey, we'll be digging into their rear lines in 15 seconds; push or die slowly."

My only suggestion is to try to keep communication (typing) minimal and succinct. What probably has to happen is the effect of a "monkey see, monkey do" where part of a premade (requires 1) would have to lead the "PUG" blob to where it needs to go, whereas the rest of the premade does the rest of the work (like cap distract or whatever). Anything that sounds too complicated is complicated. Of course, this requires someone that can type to communicate this as fast as possible.

Quote

In addition to the alternate causes, I believe that a separate queue would wreak havoc on their plans to make PUG matches faction vs faction. I see separate queues as a big band-aid. They're working on a large overhaul of the way matchmaking works, it seems, and I'd rather just wait and let it play out.

TL;DR: It's been bad for a long time; it might as well stay bad for another couple months while they implement things we need.

/shrug

Hard to disagree with you there.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 October 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

Deathlike, on 17 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

It's the 2 minute penalty. Welcome to high ELO.

I can vouch for this. It usually takes me 30 seconds or less to get a match.

When it takes 2 minutes is when I know I'm either going to a) see Kaffeangst and PEEFSmash on the field or b ) be on a team with 9 trial mechs and 3 founders.

Edited by WVAnonymous, 17 October 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Orodain]

GalaxyBluestar, on 16 October 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

dude many matches have a premade on each side cause premades are becoming as common as puggers. now use your intelligence try using one of your pet hates against another.

Dude you did exactly as I called and basically stated "Awww dude itll be ok your team will have premades too!"

And then slammed some obnoxious images in there as if it validates your claim.

Teams are rarely even and when they are its mostly lone wolves.


Everything else is a missile boating team thats trying super hard or ends in quick capturetech. Its a real drain on 75% of matchs.

I get pubbed into more even tf2 matchs than this game. In fact most other fps Ive had the pleasure of playing recently. Remove capturetech would be a great move over nerfing premades though. Lets get some real assault games.

This games obviously more enjoyable but cmon this stuff couldve and shouldve been solved in beta.

Edited by Orodain, 17 October 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

Orodain, on 17 October 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Dude you basically did exactly as I called and basically stated "Awww dude itll be ok your team will have premades too!"

And then slammed some obnoxious images in there as if it validates your claim.

Teams are rarely even and when they are its mostly lone wolves.

Do not mistake Lone Wolves as listed in game with Mercs... as they are classified as one and the same in the match.

[Purlana]

Orodain, on 17 October 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Teams are rarely even and when they are its mostly lone wolves.

Games almost always end in one team getting rolled. You think 12 man teams don't get rolled by other 12 mans?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Roadbeer, on 17 October 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

4 man success usually has to do with the luck of the PUG draw... IMO there are two types of PUGs. Regular and extra-derpy.

PUG success usually has to do with the luck of the 4-man draw... And I think there are two types of premades. {Richard Cameron} and utter {Richard Cameron}

[Orodain]

First match today was a 12 man premades vs my team of pubs, ended 12-3...

Hey at least I got one.


Shouldve been vs another 12 man "pub"

L4D had the same problem which made the classic unmodded version of the game really unappealing when solo. Likewise for dota2 but who played that with no team...


The worst feature of this game is every awesome brawl you get into will be cut short by 3 lights playing capturetech.

Edited by Orodain, 17 October 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Urdnot Mau]

I'm tired of the grind for wins, the grind for good games. At prime time it's almost impossible to get a win for me, but about 6 hours later i can pull more than 3 kills in almost every match. I think that that premades make the game more competitive, not because of comms, but because these guys are always playing together. No comm is needed when your buddies are used to stick together. Premades are naturally more organized than PUG, that's a fact. When you see a very well organized premade group carrying nothing but assaults and good comm you can be sure that they will almost certainly win. Think about the lone wolves playing against premades everyday during months and getting stomped 70% of that time

[GalaxyBluestar]

Orodain, on 17 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

First match today was a 12 man premades vs my team of pubs, ended 12-3...

Hey at least I got one.


Shouldve been vs another 12 man "pub"

L4D had the same problem which made the classic unmodded version of the game really unappealing when solo. Likewise for dota2 but who played that with no team...


The worst feature of this game is every awesome brawl you get into will be cut short by 3 lights playing capturetech.

as i said this is elo and matchmaker not evil premades, you're really convinced that any sort of skill play is premades. and there's a cure for capturetech it's called defenselostech.

[WM Jeri]

So whining folks like you have already forced us to drop in 4 or 12's leaving many of our members out who log in and dont find any groups who then log out and that was not enough for you, this {Scrap} already has affected many units overall attendance. Lets just say your not happy I'm not happy, looks like PGI struck the balance no one is happy.

If PGI went solo queues I would take the several hundred dollar investment I made here and move to Star Citizen, enough is enough Ranger the hell up and play the damn game.

Edited by WM Jeri, 17 October 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[WarZ]

Homeless Bill, on 16 October 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I vote no. The playerbase isn't large enough and it would take even longer to find matches. I PUG most of the time, and it's just not that big of a deal. Corral your PUGs in chat and you'll win 2/3 times.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

If you pug the only effect it would have on you is narrowing the Elo range you drop with, make matches much more competative, better weight balanced and speed up the matchmaker. It is difficult to comprhend why a pug player would not be in favor of a dedicated queue.

The viewpoint you present is that of a pre-made player, and in fact match setup times woudl be much longer without being able to pull in PUG players of wildly diffeirng Elo scores to fill the cracks. I'm not saying this isnt' a valid point of view, it just isn't how you represented yourself.

I agree with Agent on this.

Theoretically from the perspective of someone who pugs most of the time, then you would be minimally affected as I'd think that the pug queue would match players more quickly and easily than the 4 man queue. No "blocks" of elo to balance, individual numbers that are more easily mixed and matched. So, pug players should match up more easily. With class and tonnage matching this becomes more so.

4 mans and other groups it would seem would have harder times properly matching since you have "blocks" of elo to match up. I could see this queue taking longer.

I'm making this assumption based on the idea that far far more players are pugging it. Which you would think would be the case.

However if most players are in groups and TS, then the theory doesnt stand. It would also say something very very scary about the state of the game and its lack of population.

Edited by WarZ, 17 October 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

IV Amen, on 17 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

PUG success usually has to do with the luck of the 4-man draw... And I think there are two types of premades. {Richard Cameron} and utter {Richard Cameron}

Hey! I'm not buying you any more beers IV!!!

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Hey! I'm not buying you any more beers IV!!!

But I winked my eye! It was a joke!! C'mon... I'll buy you a huge pint of good ol Czech beer and let's play some MW:O with or without premades

[C E Dwyer]

Kutfroat, on 16 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

just this. let premades try to inflate their elo lvl by farming other premades. it works for league of legends, so make it work here. can´t be this hard. i´m fine with waiting longer. at least matches will have the chance to be balanced and fun.

So you want more games of assault LRM boats hiding at the back, doing nothing but lobbing lrms not supporting the team properly, scoring 250 damage, if that and being a waste of space..

it isn't the 4 mans causing the issue its the builds people make in pugs to compensate for not being able to hit a barn door from the inside of the barn

[Joseph Mallan]

IV Amen, on 18 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

But I winked my eye! It was a joke!! C'mon... I'll buy you a huge pint of good ol Czech beer and let's play some MW:O with or without premades

Boo Ya!