45 replies to this topic

[Nekomimi2]

Hello,
I would like to alert you to the problem appearing for pugs and casual
players now. I have witnessed and extreme lack of enjoyment in the 12 mans.
So much so that people no longer play them unless they are a competitive
team. The pug answer was to try to sync drop three 4 man lances and even
thought they did not get to play together they were having fun and being
successful.
I played with two different non-competitive groups in 12 mans. One group
in a random Comstar TS dropship and another in a large corporation. Both
times I witnessed the groups not being able to win, not being able to get
even one kill through several matches. So what this means is the 12 man
drops have become competitive team only. Pugs and casual teams are now
effectively shut out of 12 mans. Who wants to play if you are going to
loose every single time.
How is this going to affect community warfare? You really to look at this or you could lose a lot of discouraged new players. The fact that I saw people stop playing and avoid 12 mans is disturbing.
Nekomimi2

[Zerberus]

I run 12 mans in casual groups every so often, and have not witnessed insane amounts roflstomping, except against known top-tier units.

PUGS, by definition, do not engage in coordinated group drops.

The primary reason that casuals don`t play 12 mans is the effort in putting together a 12 man team. The group I play in is usually comprised of 2-3 members each of various merc and house units with a few known randoms tossed in. Essentially a PUG team in teh form of a 12 man premade. But even when it was still 8 vs 8 it was generally something that was somehow seeded the day before....

Edited by Zerberus, 16 October 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Ghogiel]

12v12 isn't for casuals

[SecondReversal]

What can I say, Mimi - 12v12 format drops are, by their very nature, a step into a more competitive arena. While I have never dropped in the Company format, I ran a number of 8v8 drops back in the day and as a matter of course people brought their A-Game.

Now to answer your specific questions, yes I do believe that most casual and semi-casual MWO players avoid the organized drop decks. You are correct in the impression that very few people enjoy a competition that is not actually much of a competition. This will invariably have an impact on Community Warfare as skilled, disciplined organizations that have an extensive amount of teamwork experience and familiarity with each other - read: the prime competitive skillsets - will have far greater force projection than an equal number of random opponents pitted against them. The best always come out on top, you know?

However all that being said, I do not believe that this is something that can, or even should be corrected. Skill, practice, dedication and work ethic are things to be rewarded, in my opinion. Do not Steel Jaguar or Hells Black Aces or The Art of Warfare deserve their own interstellar fiefs? They certainly put the legwork in to get them. Weight of numbers will eventually impose a finite limit of endurance upon their ambition, as not even the best team of players can fight the entire community to a standstill. I say let it alone - Competitive drops are a lot of fun if you put the time in to break through the skill floor, and we should not impose arbitrary sanctions upon them to appease the masses.

[Xanquil]

It's going to be interesting to see how drop weights on groups vs no drop weights for solos will pan out. It most likely not help much but it will be interesting.

[Sandpit]

really? now we're complaining about 12v12? They make it harder and harder for units, friends, and groups to play and find games. They limit their ability to do so and yet STILL it's not enough?

It gets old hearing about how premade groups are some sort of boogeyman. It's called playing with friends and grouping up with people you enjoy playing with and being able to use a little strategy in what is called "the thinking man's shooter"

No on anything that slanders, degrades, or otherwise has any negative connotation on people who want to group up, use some teamwork, have some fun, and maybe make a few online buddies and have some cohesion in a unit.

This isn't directed at the OP or any one person either. This is a gamer who is tired of hearing about how OP or competitive (as if that's a bad thing) and evil premades are any time it comes to having to step up your skills to compete. If you don't want to play in that setting then don't. PUG or play with any group size under a 12 man group.

[Alex Warden]

Zerberus, on 16 October 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

PUGS, by definition, do not engage in coordinated group drops.

The primary reason that casuals don`t play 12 mans is the effort in putting together a 12 man team.

this, argument over

[Nekomimi2]

I don't believe this game should be designed for just one group of people who play a certain way. You are disreguarding a major portion of the games cash cow. This will delay new features in the long run. My concern is if the game forces these casual players into disproportional fights against highly skilled players in CW will they reject CW just like they seem to reject 12 mans. Are you going to be happy when casuals decide to just retreat on you rather than get rollstomped. Do you want casuals to be able to give you a challenge or are you happy with 12 kills no losses matches. Because it sounds like some of you like matches that are easy for you and are afraid that will be taken away.

[Trynn]

Its not designed that way, you can drop solo, or in small groups or put together a 12 man unit. A complete 12 man drop has always been intended as a competative senerio. your 4 man and solo drops are for the casual player. But I think it should be intuative, If someone is going to the effort of precreating a 12 man drop then they should know they will be going against other precreqted 12 man drops that are there to work on/establish unit tactics.

I really do not get where you are coming from, you have your casual ques (pugs solo/4 man units) and your Competative(hardcore)(Serious) Ques (AKA 12 man). you have options.

Again if you put together a random pug group as a premade 12 man, and then wondering why you are getting manhandled by "professional Premades" give your head a shake. join up with 4 guys or drop solo into pug matches and you will avaiod the big bad units.

[Kraven Kor]

I consider myself of middling skill (Say, Gunnery 2 and Piloting 4), and reasonable ability to follow orders and work with others.

I generally won't play 12-mans as I have no business being there and just die and then hate myself.

/shrug

[Navy Sixes]

To clarify, it's not a "skill imbalance" that keeps me from dropping solo into the 12v12, it's the attitude that many (not all, mind you, many) prems show for solos when they drop into the PUG. Why would I subject myself to that kind of disdain on a regular basis? I'm a "casual player" trying to get some entertainment value out of my game-time, remember?

Again, to clarify, as far as how often I see prems wiping out "casual" teams in the PUG: I voted "just about right," meaning when it happens, the results are just about what you would expect when you're opposing a team that is built and trained to operate together, and with in-game communication advantages that the PUGs don't have.

When I'm solo and I whip a prem, I feel like I've exhibited skill with my mech and coordination with my teammates worth bragging about.
Conversely, if you're on a prem and you whip a solo PUG team, how does that make you feel? I'd imagine you just take your cbills/xp and try to convince yourself you've earned it...

[Lukoi Banacek]

OP, why don't we wait and see how CW is actually implemented before we worry about the sky falling?

Given that its been implied there are regions, planets etc to fight over, there aren't that many top tier units out there that every place is going to have one of them to fight each and every time anyway. Right now there's little incentive for people to play 12's. CW will likely flood the field with teams as there *may* actually be an over-arching reason to join in that level of fun finally.

Why not see how that pans out before claiming we're about to break it?

[Lukoi Banacek]

Nekomimi2, on 16 October 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I played with two different non-competitive groups in 12 mans. One group
in a random Comstar TS dropship and another in a large corporation. Both
times I witnessed the groups not being able to win, not being able to get
even one kill through several matches.

p.s. if the above anecdotal evidence is what you're basing this pending calamity on, I'd argue that it's not a very definitive sampling. I've played 12's in the last two days with randoms in TS and had a very different experience. Does that mean I have proof 12 mans are not presenting enough challenge for random 12 man teams? No, of course not. Time of day matters. RhoD matters. Practice times for units matter. And the list of variables goes on and on.

PGI has enough problems right now just implementing a CW to begin with. I'll wait and see what happens before I worry it's already broken....I suspect CW will be broken mind ya, but in completely different ways than you're railing about right here.

[Deathlike]

I hate to say this.. but if you're playing 12-mans, you are playing with actual coordination.... with some more than others.

Anyone who doesn't understand how this would translate into CW will never get that teamwork is OP.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 October 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Kjudoon]

I would love to know how anyone can play anything BUT PuGs. I have found no real information in how to do that without joining a faction or merc group.

[Edustaja]

Kjudoon, on 17 October 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

I would love to know how anyone can play anything BUT PuGs. I have found no real information in how to do that without joining a faction or merc group.

You can form a pick-up 12-man in the public teamspeak servers (eg. comstar or ngng).

When dinosaurs roamed the earth (in closed beta) there existed 2-8-man groups for casual play. Then the other pugs complained about the stomps and the queues got split to 4-man and 8-man. Closely after that happened the 8-man queue turned into a competitive arena as you could not win with the casual tactics there. Also because the formation of the group got a lot harder which meant a lot longer wait times between drops. I joined BWC around this time moslty to find players with whom to play in the 8-man queue (and to prepare for CW, but it seems to be as far off as it was then ).

I play 12-man several times a week but to really get the groups to perform you need to constantly play with the same people on scheduled times. That means a lot of legwork to be good in that arena. I'm thinking something might need to change for CW. Requirement to do scheduled 12v12 does weed out a lot of potential players.

Edited by Edustaja, 17 October 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Well I can't answer the poll because I haven't the slightest idea how to tell I'm up against a premade, or what other alternatives exist outside of the basic "Launch" 12v12 PuGs exist.

Regardless, it does seem unfair for a PuG to ever be matched versus any premades that have voice coordination. Maybe that's because I don't play any other online games, but it seems the unfair advantage created and the resultant curbstomping much to the glee of some will hurt the game in a long run.

And we're then back to the problem of long wait times to join a game if you start segmenting that even more.

So the solution eludes me.

[Kharax]

I think the Real Problem with this is, that the ELO Matchmaking puts soo often 1-4 good Mechwarriors together with the rest of absolute useless PUGS that have absolutely no plan from Playing this game right and iam talking from 8 dudes that get smoked up, running to cap straight or not moving a bit. Soo they only decission will be put the bad dudes togher with bad dudes against bad dudes... and the good ones together with the good against the good Players...^^

Premades are not the problem I would say because there enought absolute bad Premade groups on the run...^^

samples:

Atlases that get a scratch from an medium laser and panical trying to get back behind cover...

8 poeple chassing one spider, and the rest who can think a bit get smoked up from complete enemy team because of this

funny things: the whole enemy team runs back behind cover because they are all get scratched a bit from a jm6dd with 4 machine guns and 2 ac2 who is alone there...^^

Jeah let the Atlas go alone through the enemy team and stay behind cover... dont help him

4 Atlas that straight avoid enemy contact moving straight to enemy capzone...

there are so much more samples but cant speak them out...

Edited by Kharax, 18 October 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[Deadmeat313]

I believe it was said that PUG battles will count towards CW results. You don't have to be in a 12-man organised group to participate.

The idea is that if you select a faction then you will be teamed up with others of the same faction - padded with Lone Wolves.

The opposing team will be formed the same way from the "enemy" faction, depending on what front you are fighting on.

PUGs will still fight PUGs. 12-mans will still fight 12-mans.

If they do actually implement all this, I will be a very happy chappie.

D313

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I mostly PUG, because the unit I've joined is mostly in different time zones. (I do play 12-mans on the weekends.)

Shameless recruiting pitch ... If anyone in the Asia-Oceania region is looking for a competitive group that takes the game seriously, but doesn't take themselves too seriously, check out the 228th Independent Battlemech Regiment. I'm usually online in the evenings Japan time (GMT 11:00-14:00) and would be happy to talk with you about the 228th.

Three factors will go into the success of any team, that are either non-existant or subject to the match maker in PUG drops ...
- planning
... in a competitive 12-man drop, we will always plan out each mech, each loadout, what roles they are to fill, leadership roles, etc.
... in a PUG drop, you might get this with your 4-man lance ... maybe

- coordination
... 12-mans ... we're all on the same TS, moving as tight groups, focusing fire, and when we can, we get together to practice--when we can't we try to drop 4-mans together--to improve our own inter-personal relationships
... in a PUG group, you might get this in your 4-man lance ... maybe

- player skill
... 12-mans ... our drop leaders choose pilots based on the roles they need filled, and when there's a large group online, our depth allows them to pick the pilot who is best in the needed mech in the desired role
... PUGs ... match maker, but it's not perfect but on average, it should work to keep things balanced

All that said, I'd much rather drop with a well-coordinated team of "mostly above average" players than a dozen "top tier" players that don't work well together.


The real question is, how will PGI make community warfare fun for the most different types of players.

It appears that player-run Mercenary Corps (whether affiliated with a great house or not) will be the core of community warfare for the teams that are playing in the 12-man player-run leagues right now. In general, it also appears that, for the most part, Merc Corps will be fighting against Merc Corps.

If also appears that PGI GM-run great house militarys, clans, and other factions will be the core of community warfare for "casual players". In general, it also appears that great houses will be fighting against each other (until the clans invade, anyway). It also appears that PGI wants to maintain control over the great houses in order to try to keep things mostly balanced.

There are many unanswered questions about community warfare, and all we can do right now is wait and see (and practice, and grind XP/C-Bills, and have fun).