338 replies to this topic

[Odins Fist]

Sable Dove, on 27 November 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Use the Testing grounds, where there is no latency. Against a moving target, thee's no way of being sure. Most of the 'proof' I've seen of issues with the Spider are from people who saw a hit, but the server didn't, or didn't hit nearly as much as they thought they did.

Other issues: SRMs have deadzones on virtually all mechs. Hit indications do not always display correctly (paper doll doesn't update, reticle doesn't flash, paper doll shows damage to locations that were not hit, etc.). Damage to destroyed components is often transferred to the wrong component on many mechs.

There is no credible evidence that there ever was a significant problem with the Spider. The Spider is easier to kill now because it has hitboxes that are a fair amount larger than the actual model.

If it seems just as hard, it's because it's mostly the best light pilots that use the Spider now.

Where there is no CONSISTENCY there can be no rule...

Like I said, if everything on your sensors and visuals show a HIT but so many different results happen, or nothing at all, then there is an issue somewhere, I guess I will quote that up for you.

Odins Fist, on 05 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

There is no consistency when it comes to damage done to spiders, people are saying the same exact situation should not produce so many different results to the point at which the community has noticed.
...
When all your indicators show a HIT, yet no additional damage is done, then there is some sort of issue.
How is a newer player supposed to gauge whether or not everything his instruments and visual indications show is actually happening? I think that has a lot of newer players scratching their heads.
...
Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issues over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

I ran a Spider©-Trial for a few rounds one day, and I was surprised at the inconsistency of the damage I was taking considering I was weaving in and out of large formations of the enemy, I just couldn't believe that 5 mechs at a a time all had so awful AIM that they couldn't manage to get my Armor past yellow, and that my arms or legs didn't come off after the amount of fire I received.. Maybe I wasn't being hit as much as I thought...

It's funny that using the same approach to aiming and hitting other lights going similar speeds is seen to produce different results by players, this indicated by comments I have read.
I will say this, I know the Locust has nowhere near the armor of a Spider, but I have obliterated so many Locusts with FAR less effort then I have Spiders using the same approach..
Is my AIM off that much..?? Possible, but highly unlikely, and I have seen examples #1 through #6 myself to varying degrees.

No issue with how the Spider takes damage?
Oh well, only the future will tell huh..??

I really don't care what the issue IS or WAS, as long as it gets, or has been fixed..
Server not registering hits..?? Fine, I would be content with that being, or have been the issue.

I was saying that "saying" there isn't an issue at all (whatever it may be) is a complete joke.
Hit box issue or not...

Odins Fist, on 05 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issues over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

No issue with how the Spider takes damage?
Oh well, only the future will tell huh..??

The "SPIDER" hit boxes were indeed changed.
Has anything improved..?? Yes or No..??

Edited by Odins Fist, 27 November 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Sable Dove]

It depends on what you mean by 'improved'. To me, having the hitboxes for a mech significantly larger than the mech's model is not an improvement. Would have been better if they had simply increased the size of the mech.

In terms of taking damage, yes, Spiders are taking more damage, because they have oversized hitboxes, so even if you miss the mech, you have a higher chance of catching the invisible hitbox bubble around it.

There wasn't an issue with the Spider (specifically). It was small, fast, and well-designed, in exchange for crappy hardpoints. Now it's effectively larger, and thus, easier to hit. Especially in the legs, which were very small compared to other lights before.

[Odins Fist]

Sable Dove, on 27 November 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

To me, having the hitboxes for a mech significantly larger than the mech's model is not an improvement. Would have been better if they had simply increased the size of the mech.

Wait a minute are the hit boxes "significantly larger than the mech's model"..???
Are they, or is that an assumption..??

Or is it just that....


I thought it was only a 10% increase.
If it is 10%, then I don't see 10% being "significantly larger than the mech's model"..

Edited by Odins Fist, 27 November 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

I haven't noticed any difference in HSR but then I didn't have much of a problem before because I have good ping and I know how to compensate against high ping players when I run into them.


Any problems hitting spiders were absolutely NOT because of hit boxes of "dead zones."


I would say that 90% of the problem was people aiming in the same spot despite it being the WRONG spot to aim at. Why did they aim at the wrong spot? Because their client side model said they were hitting and no amount of explanation here would convince them that they had to do anything else. Being the awesome players that they were it had to be the hit boxes.

The other 10% was convergence plus skinny spider, plus lag making convergence even worse.

Hit boxes were "fixed." I posted 5 kills, 560 damage the second time I went out.

I don't get hit any more or less often than I used to.

I find it hilarious that you all think spiders are "fixed" and that something was wrong with them before and is now somehow different now.


Odin, the way you tell if you are aiming in the right spot to hit someone is that you guess at the lead, you fire your weapons, and their paper doll takes damage. It doesn't matter if you see your rounds pass in front of them into the terrain, the only indicator you have from the server on whether you hit is the enemy's paper doll. That spot doesn't move much either unless you or your target have large fluctuation in your pings.

Explosions, red crosshairs, sound effects, those are all generated by YOUR client.

And really, the only way to "fix" this situation is to either kick all high ping/packetloss players out of the game, add regional servers, or have HSR "gimme" "close enough" shots which is already sort of what it does anyways. Thing is when HSR was awesome it was kicking some of the high ping players because they couldn't handle the increased amount of data transfer necessary for HSR to work at it's best.

[Sable Dove]

Odins Fist, on 27 November 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Wait a minute are the hit boxes "significantly larger than the mech's model"..??? Are they, or is that an assumption..??

Or is it just that....

It's been tested. While invisible, weapons will converge on the hitbox, meaning you can at least trace the outlines of the mech's hitboxes. After the change, the Spider now has an invisible bubble of hitboxes pretty much all around it. Compare to the normal, where the hitbox sticks pretty closely to the model (with a few exceptions on certain mechs, but none to the extent of the Spider).

If you test, you'll see that the Spider's hitbox tends to extend slightly further than the model from most angles.

On other mechs, the hitboxes are usually flush with the model's edges, or even slightly smaller than the model.

[Odins Fist]

Corwin Vickers, on 27 November 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Odin, the way you tell if you are aiming in the right spot to hit someone is that you guess at the lead, you fire your weapons, and their paper doll takes damage. It doesn't matter if you see your rounds pass in front of them into the terrain, the only indicator you have from the server on whether you hit is the enemy's paper doll. That spot doesn't move much either unless you or your target have large fluctuation in your pings.

Explosions, red crosshairs, sound effects, those are all generated by YOUR client.

And that's what needs to be fixed...
As I said before

Odins Fist, on 05 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

When all your indicators show a HIT, yet no additional damage is done, then there is some sort of issue.
How is a newer player supposed to gauge whether or not everything his instruments and visual indications show is actually happening? I think that has a lot of newer players scratching their heads.

Leading because of ping or other server side issues... Been there, for a while.. Before HSR

The client side of hits not matching up with what the server "THINKS" happened is a freaking joke, I understand they are working on it, but if it is never fixed, then it becomes an even worse joke.. That would be a sad statement.

I don't shoot around the sights of my .30-06, I set my sights to work for me, not the other way around.
If they can't manage to match up what i'm doing, with what actually happens, then wow I literally am aghast at the thought of what will happen next... The old "it's Beta" excuse ran out a long, long, long, long, long, long time ago.

I know if i'm hitting a Spider.. Because it dies...

Edited by Odins Fist, 27 November 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

When you shoot trap or ***** you have to lead based on distance and the speed of the pidgeon. Now imagine that this pidgeon has the ability to warp through time and space (bad ping).

The issue is an issue of physics (people far away from the server) and people with bad internet service and bad computers.

Not really issues PGI can fix.

They could add regional servers which would help for those lucky enough to have one near them but they can never make a player with 10 FPS have 60 FPS or a player with 400 ping able to talk to the server any faster than 400 milliseconds.

What HSR at it's core does, is penalize players with good ping. It's the reason why you can get hit around corners even though you never breached that corner (laggy guy didn't see you stop so he gets to shoot you with HSR).

If you fill a game full of players with sub 100 pings you wouldn't see any aiming issues at all. The problem happens when your ping sucks so everyone you are trying to shoot is more difficult to hit, or where your ping is good but the other guy is lagging.

What I do is if I am shooting at a guy and it doesn't seem like he's taking damage I hit Tab and check his ping and see if he's especially laggy. I have seen people with what looked like very good ping who were clearly stuttering on screen. This is probably packet loss or jitter though I semi suspect it might be on purpose. I think it's unlikely a guy with 40 ping is going to have bad packet loss or jitter to the server. The higher the players ping the farther in front of them you have to lead (in my experience.)


You can sort of test this with team mates. If you bump into a team mate with very good ping you either bounce off him or you get stopped. You bump into a team mate with very bad ping and all of a sudden you don't know where you really are on screen with all the warping. I suspect this warping is worse because of HSR though warping was pretty darn bad back before HSR.


One of the big complaints I see is "I SHOT THIS SHUTDOWN SPIDER WITH 20 AC 20 ROUNDS AND HE JUST RAN AWAY!!!!!1111oneoneone"

The problem with this, same as laggy people shooting you around the corner, is that your client doesn't actually know where that mech started to shutdown, it takes a guess but in the case of laggy player or target that guess is usually wrong and if it's a spider you don't have a whole lot of mech width to be wrong.

In these cases I think you need to fire behind where you see them shutdown though it may be in front, someone with bad ping would have to test. I don't have too many problems shooting shutdown mechs.

[Odins Fist]

So having a 30 to 50 ping max is bad for me huh..??

That shouldn't be my problem.... EVER

Edited by Odins Fist, 27 November 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Pgi could adjust for this and maybe they do but im not sure. HIT="distance at" - "ms worth of distance" This would take care of laggy shooters but laggy mechs will be worse off not just because of the hit detection but they will be behind on turns and zigzags.

[Pineapple Salad]

I have hard time believing that when I shoot over a friendly spider and the last bit of my medium laser hits his upper back and the damage registers to his legs, it's because my high ping or other HSR related stuff. That said, I have seen quite a bit of hitreg issues, even on larger mechs and warping is common. The best thing that PGI can do to minimize possible issues is to add regional servers, there is no way that European players can have under 120 ping to NA.

[Clit Beastwood]

Corwin Vickers, on 27 November 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I haven't noticed any difference in HSR but then I didn't have much of a problem before because I have good ping and I know how to compensate against high ping players when I run into them.


Any problems hitting spiders were absolutely NOT because of hit boxes of "dead zones."


I would say that 90% of the problem was people aiming in the same spot despite it being the WRONG spot to aim at. Why did they aim at the wrong spot? Because their client side model said they were hitting and no amount of explanation here would convince them that they had to do anything else. Being the awesome players that they were it had to be the hit boxes.

The other 10% was convergence plus skinny spider, plus lag making convergence even worse.

Hit boxes were "fixed." I posted 5 kills, 560 damage the second time I went out.

I don't get hit any more or less often than I used to.

I find it hilarious that you all think spiders are "fixed" and that something was wrong with them before and is now somehow different now.


Odin, the way you tell if you are aiming in the right spot to hit someone is that you guess at the lead, you fire your weapons, and their paper doll takes damage. It doesn't matter if you see your rounds pass in front of them into the terrain, the only indicator you have from the server on whether you hit is the enemy's paper doll. That spot doesn't move much either unless you or your target have large fluctuation in your pings.

Explosions, red crosshairs, sound effects, those are all generated by YOUR client.

And really, the only way to "fix" this situation is to either kick all high ping/packetloss players out of the game, add regional servers, or have HSR "gimme" "close enough" shots which is already sort of what it does anyways. Thing is when HSR was awesome it was kicking some of the high ping players because they couldn't handle the increased amount of data transfer necessary for HSR to work at it's best.

Yeah 5-6+ kill games still do-able in the spider, but have to work a little harder.

Run fast. Be crazy.

[Wispsy]

Fierostetz, on 01 December 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yeah 5-6+ kill games still do-able in the spider, but have to work a little harder.

Run fast. Be crazy.

I regularly get 5-6+ kill games in my gauss blackjack...means nothing :/

[Clit Beastwood]

Wispsy, on 03 December 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

I regularly get 5-6+ kill games in my gauss blackjack...means nothing :/

If it's the BJ1 with the AC20 - that thing's uber fun - a YLW that flies and has no armor! My statement was mainly to state that the spider wasn't insta-sploding like everyone assumed it would. 600-700 dmg and 5-6+ kill games are harder to get now, but still possible. The hitbox change should help to sort the wheat from the chaff. I *don't* like that the hitboxes are actually bigger than the mech now, but with HSR how it is :shrug: best we can hope for. Sidebar - wispsy, I think you're a jenner nut - any seat time in the new Oxide? Seems like a good fit for a 4man of 2xECM spiders (or com2d's) and 2xOxides for pack hunting light and medium mechs...

[Wispsy]

Fierostetz, on 03 December 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

If it's the BJ1 with the AC20 - that thing's uber fun - a YLW that flies and has no armor! My statement was mainly to state that the spider wasn't insta-sploding like everyone assumed it would. 600-700 dmg and 5-6+ kill games are harder to get now, but still possible. The hitbox change should help to sort the wheat from the chaff. I *don't* like that the hitboxes are actually bigger than the mech now, but with HSR how it is :shrug: best we can hope for. Sidebar - wispsy, I think you're a jenner nut - any seat time in the new Oxide? Seems like a good fit for a 4man of 2xECM spiders (or com2d's) and 2xOxides for pack hunting light and medium mechs...

Not ac20...Gauss and the blackjack is a terrible mech...just you play against bad people so you get games like that. The Oxide is going to win light fights, every time. I have not got it, I do not spend too much MC and SSRMs have made me very sad ever since they added Artemis so I am not sure I can justify buying it.

[Corvus Antaka]

Wispsy, on 03 December 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not ac20...Gauss and the blackjack is a terrible mech...just you play against bad people so you get games like that. The Oxide is going to win light fights, every time. I have not got it, I do not spend too much MC and SSRMs have made me very sad ever since they added Artemis so I am not sure I can justify buying it.

while this may be true, the oxide is a 1 trick pony. 4 SSRM2 are practically useless vs anything bigger than a light, and while a 4 man oxide team might be a good scout lance, they still could easily succumb to a 4 erppc spider lance with good aim given how the ssrm spreads damage.

this mech is a cute addition, but far from OP or game breaking.

[Cassius Longinus]

I've only got 2 things to say on the topic which are:

1. Spiders, post hitbox change, aren't much easier to kill at all. Conversely, as I drive around in my spider, I can still do crazy **** and get away with it.

2. If the "spider problem" is about hit registration due to lag, etc, I'm not sure why spider performance is so much better than locust performance (again, both in terms of killing them, and driving them). I'm 30-40 ping at all times.

Anyways, whatever problem there was, hasn't really been fixed. That's for sure.

It seemed really ****** to me, but my answer was just to add them to my garage about it.

[Wispsy]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 03 December 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

while this may be true, the oxide is a 1 trick pony. 4 SSRM2 are practically useless vs anything bigger than a light, and while a 4 man oxide team might be a good scout lance, they still could easily succumb to a 4 erppc spider lance with good aim given how the ssrm spreads damage.

this mech is a cute addition, but far from OP or game breaking.

You do not need a lance of them...and I think 4erppc spiders would lose unless it starts at open terrain long range.

[Clit Beastwood]

Wispsy, on 03 December 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

You do not need a lance of them...and I think 4erppc spiders would lose unless it starts at open terrain long range.

I am not a huge fan of erppc spiders :|
The oxide looks "fun" (I built an lrm 10 Jenner k for "fun" and it is!) so I'll probably buy it. I don't mind spending money on MC, since mwo eats up time I'd probably spend doing other (probably more expensive!) things. I just made it a home budget line item under "entertainment". My wife would rather I buy MC than any more old motorcycles

Edited by Fierostetz, 03 December 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Spiders are no easier to hit than before, they just take damage when you hit them now. That's a HUGE improvement imo.

[giganova]

Working as intended...