183 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Premades are not evil. It's a silly idea. Some people are jack-holes but that's got nothing to do with being on premade teams.

Not everyone can or will use TS or VoIP. When I'm at work if I use VoiP ninjas will see it and come to my office and I'll end up getting put in time-out. When I'm at home the family is around and I've agreed to not use VoiP services. Not to mention that open VoiP games are full of absolutely mouth-breathing idiots. Joining a TS server with a solid group of folks is a whole other issue but just saying everyone should just join a server is illogical. I speak to about 100 people a day on the phone and probably another 50 people face to face. I have a large circle of friends with whom I play tabletop RPGs and wargames, even got some folks willing to start up a Mechwarrior campaign! Mercenaries on the Periphery circa 3025 baby! I spent a good two hours today literally dusting off minis and unboxing diorama stuff. When the weathers warming we bike, hike and fish (well, we drink and watch water flow by). I don't consider myself very antisocial. I don't think most people with no interest in participating in a VoiP experience are, I've got a ton of friends who used to while gaming and just don't anymore.

My situation is not unusual, hence the bulk of players do not and will not ever use a VoiP service. I've got nothing against those who do but I can absolutely appreciate the desire of those who don't/won't use VoiP and dislike having to play against those who do. It's not an unreasonable request. If dropping solo provided some measurable advantage I'm sure teams would be complaining about it, especially if it provided a competitive advantage.

People like having an advantage. I find it funny that nobody dropping in teams is saying 'get the PUGs out of here, they're all bads! I don't want to play against them, I only want to play against other skilled organized teams of skill comparable to my own!' Instead you've got people who absolutely do NOT want solo players split from playing against groups - there's the excuse of 'Well you should just join a group!' if that was a valid argument then splitting solo players from group players in queues would be transparent to you. Instead of everyone who plays MWO only playing by joining a TS server and dropping with a group you're just removing those who do from the same queue as those who don't.

I'm not saying premades are bad, quite the opposite. However the whole argument of 'join TS, join a team, quit complaining' is absolutely disingenuous. If anyone actually thought the solution was for everyone to join teams than splitting solo from team queues would be transparent to them and give them exactly what they want. What's being asked for in that is the desire to be part of an organized team and dropping against less organized solo opponents. Trying to say you deserve to play at an advantage against them because they didn't join a teamspeak server is just trying to moralize away wanting to protect your advantage.

The impending introduction of a deathmatch game mode largely solves this whole issue for the time being though. People with no interest playing in/against teams can play deathmatch games and not have to worry about it. How popular that gamemode is will clarify I think quite a bit about the breakdown of player populations.

[Roland]

Quote

The impending introduction of a deathmatch game mode largely solves this whole issue for the time being though. People with no interest playing in/against teams can play deathmatch games and not have to worry about it. How popular that gamemode is will clarify I think quite a bit about the breakdown of player populations.

Except that, apparently, they are only making "Team deathmatch" which is only one vs. one duels...

Instead of actual team deathmatch, where you have teams... who are playing deathmatch.

Because, well **** it. We don't need no reasons.

[Krivvan]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Except that, apparently, they are only making "Team deathmatch" which is only one vs. one duels...

Instead of actual team deathmatch, where you have teams... who are playing deathmatch.

Because, well **** it. We don't need no reasons.

Well actual team deathmatch wouldn't work with the way MWO is now. But I'm not sure why they went with 1v1.

Although I love 1v1, so it makes me happy at least.

[R Razor]

It's a team game, get over it. If you're not willing to take the steps necessary to build a decent team and communicate with that team then don't play the game. If you're going to play the game then stop whining about others using team work while you avoid doing so on principle, promises or whatever other excuse you choose to use.

[MischiefSC]

R Razor, on 21 October 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

It's a team game, get over it. If you're not willing to take the steps necessary to build a decent team and communicate with that team then don't play the game. If you're going to play the game then stop whining about others using team work while you avoid doing so on principle, promises or whatever other excuse you choose to use.

So I just covered this. Nobody is objecting to teamwork. I am curious though, while I don't mind queues as they are what is your objection to splitting them? A team-only queue with absolutely no unskilled pugs, just organized teams and people who want to pug in team games, would be exactly the same as playing in an environment where every single player is taking your advice and being part of a team.

There is no logical basis for your argument. None. The one and only objection to splitting queues into 'premades and pugs who want to fill in the gaps on premade teams' and 'people who want to play solo' is that you want to drop in a team against less organized people.

Your argument is self-defeating - if what you actually believed was that everyone should join teams than playing in a teams-only queue would be giving you exactly what you are asking for. What you are instead is saying that you want to ensure that the players who don't have the time/energy/interest/motivation to join teams or use teamspeak are there for you to play against while in a team. Your argument is entirely not that people should join teams; that has nothing to do with queues. It's saying that you want to play in a team against people who are in a group of solo players.

If someone is actually all for everyone playing in teams on teamspeak and that's how everyone should play then in what way does players who will never do that playing each other in another queue impinge your gaming experience?

It doesn't. I'm all for no limits on team size in drops but having two queues, one for 'teams size 2-11 plus people who elect to pug in that environment' and 'solo only' is absolutely reasonable. The only drawback to it would be if either queue lacks the population to actually fill matches. Either the 'solo only' queue won't have enough players (unlikely) or nobody will elect to play filler with/against teams (more likely).

So the reality is that you require pugs, people who don't want to join teams or use teamspeak, to be able to fill teams. More importantly a lot of people seem to actually WANT to play against them while they themselves are on teams because they want to protect their advantage.

That's the realities of it. A solo queue would be invisible and irrelevant to a '2-11 plus team-oriented pugs' queue. I find it interesting and telling how many people cry out against that division under the moralistic cry of 'it's a team game!' when what they're actually arguing for is 'I joined a team to get an advantage - if everyone is on teams and I'm not playing against less organized opponents then you're robbing me of my advantage! Make solo players stay in the team queue and let me increase the advantage that playing in teams gives me'.

I drop with friends often, just without teamspeak. 4 mans and 12mans. I'd happily pug in a 'teams' queue and enjoy it. I'd prefer it even; let all the people with no interest in teamwork go play in their own queue so I can drop in a game knowing everyone on my team has at least a passing interest in teamwork, TS or not. Arguing against letting solo-driven players go play in their own queue however has only one logical basis:

The desire to have someone to play against over whom you have an advantage. That's it. If there are not enough players in MW:O who would drop and pug in a 'teams' queue to populate it then the argument again lacks merit - it means you're a minority too few to even fill out a single queue with even passable matchmaking. If that's the case you have no basis for arguing from authority and PGI is absolutely right and wise to cater to solo players since they would in that case be the majority.

Does that make sense? There is no logical basis for arguing against a solo only queue aside from wanting to protect your advantage and it strips any moral authority from such an argument. It's purely selfish.

[Roland]

Seriously, having two queues, a solo queue and one for everyone else regardless of group size, is the ideal breakdown.

It gives a queue for folks that TOTALLY REMOVES any perception of unfair matchmaking based on "premades". While at the same time allowing the rest of players to just play how they like.

The only group that such a breakdown would upset are folks who want to group, but are afraid to fight folks who are "more grouped" than they are.. but screw those folks. They have no legitimate argument for their desires, other than the idea that they want to play against folks who are inherently less organized than they are.

It also means that folks who play in large groups will have more, and more varied competition, as you'll end up having a lot more grouped players. You'll also bring back all the old MW4 folks who ended up leaving because they couldn't play with their friends easily.

[KingCobra]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Seriously, having two queues, a solo queue and one for everyone else regardless of group size, is the ideal breakdown.

It gives a queue for folks that TOTALLY REMOVES any perception of unfair matchmaking based on "premades". While at the same time allowing the rest of players to just play how they like.

The only group that such a breakdown would upset are folks who want to group, but are afraid to fight folks who are "more grouped" than they are.. but screw those folks. They have no legitimate argument for their desires, other than the idea that they want to play against folks who are inherently less organized than they are.

It also means that folks who play in large groups will have more, and more varied competition, as you'll end up having a lot more grouped players. You'll also bring back all the old MW4 folks who ended up leaving because they couldn't play with their friends easily.

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY we have been trying to tell PGI and the devs for what 2 years now? Give us a MSN gamming zone for the premades and what we have now MM/ELO for solo/pugs.

Edited by KingCobra, 21 October 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Seriously, having two queues, a solo queue and one for everyone else regardless of group size, is the ideal breakdown.

It gives a queue for folks that TOTALLY REMOVES any perception of unfair matchmaking based on "premades". While at the same time allowing the rest of players to just play how they like.

The only group that such a breakdown would upset are folks who want to group, but are afraid to fight folks who are "more grouped" than they are.. but screw those folks. They have no legitimate argument for their desires, other than the idea that they want to play against folks who are inherently less organized than they are.

It also means that folks who play in large groups will have more, and more varied competition, as you'll end up having a lot more grouped players. You'll also bring back all the old MW4 folks who ended up leaving because they couldn't play with their friends easily.

QFT.

I would enjoy pugging more if I knew everyone I was teamed with was either A) a team or B ) had chosen to pug with teams.

There is absolutely nothing lost in letting people who just want to go play stompy shooty mechs with other people wanting to play stompy shooty mechs go do so without worrying about teamwork, coordination or the like. That's awesome. I hope they buy tons of hero mechs and cammo and spend big stinky piles of money with PGI. I want them to play and have fun and spend money.

Let everyone else play in a 1-11 queue. Let 12mans be the super-competitive queue. This, more than any sort of Elo, would effectively segregate the 'teamwork oriented' players from the 'solo' players, increasing player to player communication and teamwork and networking and all that magical stuff, because people who want to play solo are NOT going to get drawn into that just because they're dropping together with people who are, they're going to get disenchanted and feel picked-on and disenfranchised. It'll make them less inclined to group up, not less.

[Chronojam]

Roland, on 21 October 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Seriously, having two queues, a solo queue and one for everyone else regardless of group size, is the ideal breakdown.

It gives a queue for folks that TOTALLY REMOVES any perception of unfair matchmaking based on "premades". While at the same time allowing the rest of players to just play how they like.

The only group that such a breakdown would upset are folks who want to group, but are afraid to fight folks who are "more grouped" than they are.. but screw those folks. They have no legitimate argument for their desires, other than the idea that they want to play against folks who are inherently less organized than they are.

It also means that folks who play in large groups will have more, and more varied competition, as you'll end up having a lot more grouped players. You'll also bring back all the old MW4 folks who ended up leaving because they couldn't play with their friends easily.

The "kiddie pool" solution has been brought up many times but has never really caught on. It's unfortunate.

[Boris The Spider]

Ok, so lets say you get your wish, a solo queue and an any size group queue. 2 days later there is post in new player help which goes:

Quote

“Hi, my brother and I just installed MWO today, he is piloting a trial Catapult and I'm piloting a trial Hunchback. Why is the game so difficult, all the mechs around us are painted up and seem to have much better weapons, most rounds, the enemy team all has the same flags next to their name and we get annihilated within seconds of encountering the enemy team. The last 15 games we have launched have been like this, what is going on with the game balance here? I know we are new and shouldn’t expect to win every match, but this is ridiculous”

What advice are you going to give to this poster?

Edited by Boris The Spider, 22 October 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[dario03]

Boris The Spider, on 22 October 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Ok, so lets say you get your wish, a solo queue and an any size group queue. 2 days later there is post in new player help which goes:



What advice are you going to give to this poster?

Play separate until you learn the game. Or join in with the bigger groups that take in newbies. But probably a lot less new people jumping into the game 2 at a time than 1 at a time.

Edited by dario03, 22 October 2013 - 02:05 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

So either drop solo, or join a big clan... can you see now how this removes accessibility to the game to new and casual players. Either change, solo queue or unrestricting group size causes this problem, both together compound it. But this is par for this type of thread, both the anti-social won't use VOIP players and the well organised large group players ignore the existence of everybody between their two extreme positions and expect everybody else to just fall in line and play the game the way they do.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

If they relax the group limit I'll largely stop playing this game until they implement either 1) solaris 1 v 1 arena mode or 2) community warfare so I can finally start to clarify what "competitive" house team I want to be a part of. Until then, the game would just sink into silly ROFLstomp territory with no point to playing besides stomping or getting stomped. Been there, done that. It was called first week of open beta. Not doing it again.

[Mycrus]

It is a team game but nobody is teamwork enough to play 12s...

I belong to a small and discerning guild of exactly 12 people... Obviously we are never online at the same time to play 12s...

But I've played more 12-mans in my new guild than the entire year I was with a very large (self proclaimed) unit...

How - we hang out in comstar and we drop 12s with everyone vs anyone... That is how it is done! Don't cower in your 4-man!

[dario03]

Boris The Spider, on 22 October 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

So either drop solo, or join a big clan... can you see now how this removes accessibility to the game to new and casual players. Either change, solo queue or unrestricting group size causes this problem, both together compound it. But this is par for this type of thread, both the anti-social won't use VOIP players and the well organised large group players ignore the existence of everybody between their two extreme positions and expect everybody else to just fall in line and play the game the way they do.

No, I would say its a improvement. Like I said there probably won't be that many people that join the game and play 2 at a time right away. And even in the current system they might end up with 10 pugs and against a team of 2x4mans and 4 pugs anyways. Besides I would hope that they try to balance the teams anyways so if its a 2 man group then hopefully they would end up with the enemy also having a 2 man or something like a near equal split of teams. A 2man+10man vs a 9man+3man doesn't sound to bad to me. And no one said drop elo so complete newbies probably wouldn't drop against full on teams constantly.

Edited by dario03, 22 October 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

dario03, on 22 October 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

No, I would say its a improvement. Like I said there probably won't be that many people that join the game and play 2 at a time right away.

And were right back to, I'm guesing they are a minority anyway. Its not even 'right away' that is an issue, it is making that step up at any time from solo to group too difficult that players are dissuaded from grouping. At the minute, the best advice to give any new player is to join a public teamspeak and group up with players right away who will be happy to answer all your questions and help get you into the game. At the minute the matchmaker can sort of handle this, the new player already ends up fighting in a higher Elo game, they always comment on how much more difficult it is.

dario03, on 22 October 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

And even in the current system they might end up with 10 pugs and against a team of 2x4mans and 4 pugs anyways. Besides I would hope that they try to balance the teams anyways so if its a 2 man group then hopefully they would end up with the enemy also having a 2 man or something like a near equal split of teams. A 2man+10man vs a 9man+3man doesn't sound to bad to me.

Might being the opperative word. Not will. Even if you can find another group of similar Elo players to match them with on the other team, you just end up with 2-3 players on each team that are playing at too high a level for them to gain any match experience. Low Elo and new players should always be able to find applicable matches, grouped or ungrouped. Currently they can.

dario03, on 22 October 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

And no one said drop elo so complete newbies probably wouldn't drop against full on teams constantly.

This demographic cannot be both rare enough that they are not worthing bothering with and common enough that the matchmaker will be able to create low-Elo games in a group only queue.

At the end of the day, personaly I don't care. I already consider solo-dropping easy mode and the quickest way to grind out bad chasis and C-bills, remove groups from that queue and replace them with noobs and other solo's and I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I am also part of a large enough group to be able to compete just fine within an any sized group queue. Its a great change for me, just not for the game.

Mycrus, on 22 October 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

How - we hang out in comstar and we drop 12s with everyone vs anyone... That is how it is done! Don't cower in your 4-man!

Yeah Mycrus, I'm usualy there too. But this only works because we can pull together 24+ players with the time available and the experience to be able to play at this level and still have fun. Its everybody else who don't/won't/can't and they should not have to make the choice of either playing at this level or playing solo, there needs to be something in between for casual and new players.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 22 October 2013 - 03:57 AM.

[No Guts No Glory]

Boris The Spider, on 22 October 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

I already consider solo-dropping easy mode and the quickest way to grind out bad chasis and C-bills

After reading this, I can't take anything you say serious.

[Randalf Yorgen]

So, I'm just curious here but can someone tell me how installing the TS3 client and accessting the NGNG:MWO server for free infringes on anyones play style?

Lone Wolves can still be Lone Wolves but if they happen to end up in a drop with someon else on the server they could just switch channels for that match and at the end go back to doing their solo stuff.

2/3/4mans can do their grouped thing and not bother any solo player, except when they see they are in a drop with one and then they could pop into their channel for that drop and then part company afterwards.

12 mans can face off against 12 mans and not bother anyone in the other ques.

People would have access to other people in real time to ask questions and get real time one on one answers to those questions.

TS3 even allows you to activate a Push to talk setting so that you don't broadcast every burp, fart or sniffle to the rest of the team so no one ends up embarased

Really I don't understand the aversion and out rejection of TS by some of the people who play this game. If they found that they couldn't use it at the same time as the game I know how to fix that, right click on the game ad click "Run as administrator" and to the same for the TS3 launcher. then everything works just fine.

Is it volume control? your computer volume controls, usually found on your keyboard will adjust that in the short term or if you are going to be talking to someone who is loud you can adjust their volume levels at your end so you can hear them with no dificulties.

Is it that people don't want to add people to their friend list? I know some people have an erratic schedule and can only hop on the game for an hour here and there a couple of times a week, How would TS3 hinder this?

I just don't get it, it's there, it's free, there is no faction commitment and it CAN, if USED help people reach a new level in the game. Crazy stuff guys and gals.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Chronojam, on 20 October 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

That pop-up was supposed to be a placeholder until their paid-for customized integrated solution was ready. It was instead silently dropped after putting that absurd press release out on the news wire, and we've never heard further about it.

All people want is "Hold a key while playing and you can talk to the other players" instead of trying to hurriedly tell your teammates to join your server during the precious few seconds at the start of the match (and do they need Ventrilo? TeamSpeak 2? TS3? Mumble? Something different?).

Oh, well, I guess you would suggest they could always hop onto the game's built in lobby your particular IRC or Jabber server ahead of time to decide which voice server to use?

Just a question, but if you join the NGNG TS3 server before you enter the game, then press launch and look at your team, before you press ready the second time, could you not simply alt tab out and switch channels so that you are in the same channel as someone else on your team? all you have to say is "Hey, were in the same drop so I thought I would pop in for the match" 9999 times out of 10,000 they will be told, ya, cool, where are you and what are you in, I'll try to keep up" or something like that. Then you just hop back in the game, and because you launched TS3 in Administrator mode, you can press to talk while playing the game. who knows you might make a friend.

I think you are also saying that the whole process of downloading the chat engine might be an issue well as a founder who was playing since before there were founders, may I point out that the C-3 voip required you to go to their link, Register with their site so you could get all kinds of gooy e-mails from them and then download their client. Also you have to be logged into their service before you started MW:O or things wouldn't be in sync. How is that any different than using TS3 or anyo of the others, except that you can launch them at anytime and not have to restart your game.

Really it's not hard to do, it doesn't force you into a faction or unit and it opens a whole new world to all players who try it out.

Is the argument really that it's not automatically in game already? well when it was were things really any different?

[Chronojam]

It was supposed to be a temporary thing. It was badly done. It was never completed. We are left lacking. Do you seriously not see the problem with asking people to hop onto a third party client, use a third party voice service from another group, and all this only after finding out mid-match which service and server they're on? Do you ask the other team for a time-out while you try to figure out whose teamspeak/mumble/Ventrilo server to use if multiple pre-made groups are together?

Quote

“With the integration of Vivox C3 into MechWarror Online, gamers will have a seamless voice experience from within their teams, while alleviating them from the need to find an outside add-on to complicate the process,” said Rob Seaver, Vivox CSO.

I mean, they sure seem to think it's a hassle!

Quote

Vivox C3 will be included with MechWarror Online during the closed beta, starting September 4th, and at launch as part of the new gaming environment

Maybe with UI 3.4 we'll get some kind of effective VOIP packed with the game. What you're describing is more of "How to join the NGNG club" versus "How to provide voice chat for that million-account player base you bragged about."