56 replies to this topic

[SmurfOff]

Maybe it is time to give laser mechanics another review. The current game is dominated by ballistic builds because even with the ammo / weight issues, they are the most effective weapons. I think the core of this issue is the time on target need for lasers to deliver full damage, and it is not clear if there are hit detection issues mid fire on a target. For a ballistic pilot, the only challenge is the lead time, all damage is done in one instant.

So in any situation, the ballistics pilot will outdamage a similar configured energy mech. The ballistics pilot can torso twist and time shots, where the laser pilot needs to manage time on target, cycling weapons to avoid heat penalties, and reducing fire rates to prevent self immolation.

The question to Devel:
Do you feel there are any issues with lasers?
would you be willing to run a test run with different fire times on laser weapons?
I know that the DX11 test has been in works for some time, would it possible to run a laser test before the DX11 test, or would we need to wait?

[FupDup]

It's the heat system. Our current slow dissipation makes it so energy weapons are usually only good for firing off a few alphas and then hiding behind a hill for a while to cool off. Ballistics, on the other hand, are almost as good at alpha-striking capabilities and have dramatically higher DPS due to their low heat per shot (the cooling rate can keep up with them).

What we need is a faster cooling rate but a lower capacity to compensate (makes alpha-striking harder for mechs carrying a really huge number of energy weapons).

[SmurfOff]

Heat is part of it, but even in heat nuetral builds, ballistics only need to be aimed at the point of fire, where lasers need a significant amount of time on target, in a single location. This exposes the laser firing mech to extend periods of exposure / minimal movement / focused attention, where as the ballistics mech has time to improve thier situational awareness.

If you cut the laze time to 1/3 current, I think the ML and LL would be a better alternative to the ballistic builds we seem to encountering the most.

[Krivvan]

MLs are common enough already that you can't make any big changes to them.

Cut the duration to 1/3 of the current? Are you insane?

Maybe I should support that, because it would make all those Jenner-Fs beyond ridiculously strong.

[Roland]

Honestly, there are never any shortage of lasers on the field. The medium and large lasers are perfectly functional weapons. They are light and easy to field, and they're fairly easy to use given that they are instant hit.

While I would often prefer ballistic weapons for their single point damage, the reality is that they are extremely heavy. There really aren't solid light and middle weight options for ballistics, thus energy weapons fill that role currently.

The only energy weapons which need to be fixed currently are the pulse lasers, which are pretty terrible. But regular lasers are fine.

[Slab Squathrust]

My only complaint would be that medium lasers are a bit too hot. Heat on them should be 3 or 3.5. 4 is too hot for what is supposed to be a staple weapon in the game. This change hits light and medium mechs the hardest. When there is supposedly a problem with too many assaults in the game hurting the bread and butter weapon of lighter mechs does nothing to solve the problem.

Large pulse lasers seem too hot as well, but they are really fun to use so I am willing to compromise there.

[focuspark]

I support making ballistics slower. As in their projectile velocities should be lowered.'

Typical artillery shells move around 500-1000 m/s.

MWO AC shells all move 900+ m/s.

If they were all slowed by half, they'd be less accurate and more on par with the long (1.0 second) laser burn time.

[AC]

Ghost heat for lasers needs to go away. They already have enough going on with them without worrying about ghost heat.

I do wish pulse lasers were more like laser machine guns. Just something to make them different from regular lasers. Even though the look different, the mechanic is exactly the same as regular lasers. Go into proving grounds and try it. It is an invisible beam that does damage over time, the visual pulses mean nothing.

[Roland]

Slab Squathrust, on 18 October 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

My only complaint would be that medium lasers are a bit too hot. Heat on them should be 3 or 3.5. 4 is too hot for what is supposed to be a staple weapon in the game. This change hits light and medium mechs the hardest. When there is supposedly a problem with too many assaults in the game hurting the bread and butter weapon of lighter mechs does nothing to solve the problem.

Large pulse lasers seem too hot as well, but they are really fun to use so I am willing to compromise there.

I suggested a long time ago that Medium and Small lasers have their heat reduced to their original levels, because they were originally nerfed in an environment where they were the only usable weapons due to terrible netcode.

Since the netcode is largely fixed, they really should restore the small and medium lasers to their prior stats, and see how the balance works.

Although even that is kind of a secondary issue at this point. The medium and large lasers are currently decent weapons. Other weapons, like the LBX10 and pulse lasers, need much more love right now.

The fact that the LBX10 is so bad compared to how it really SHOULD be is a really crippling factor for a ton of mechs, who have the slots for ballistics, but not the tonnage to take an AC20... and thus can't really pack a decent single shot weapon there.

The Shadowhawk, for instance, really would benefit from the LBX10 not being trash... If it were like the LBX10 from mechwarrior 4, a bunch of medium mechs could field it and be much more competitive as a result.

[AC]

Just to clarify for those not in the Mechwarrior 4 know..... the LBX 10 fired a single round that hit a single panel, however it had a rather large spash radius. So you could pick where to hit the mech, and if you hit it you did most of your damage, but the damage was spread to multiple mech sections through splash damage. (And this was legit splash damage, not the MWO splash damage where you get hit in the front but you rear armor takes damage.)

[Roland]

AC, on 18 October 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Just to clarify for those not in the Mechwarrior 4 know..... the LBX 10 fired a single round that hit a single panel, however it had a rather large spash radius. So you could pick where to hit the mech, and if you hit it you did most of your damage, but the damage was spread to multiple mech sections through splash damage. (And this was legit splash damage, not the MWO splash damage where you get hit in the front but you rear armor takes damage.)

No, this is not how the LBX10 in MW4 worked. The LBX10 did not have splash damage.

The LBX10 in MW4 was a single point damage weapon that had damage that decreased with range. However, it also did 14 damage, instead of 10. (essentially, 1.4 damage per pellet)

[AC]

Roland, on 18 October 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

No, this is not how the LBX10 in MW4 worked. The LBX10 did not have splash damage.

The LBX10 in MW4 was a single point damage weapon that had damage that decreased with range. However, it also did 14 damage, instead of 10. (essentially, 1.4 damage per pellet)

You are correct that it decreased with range, but you are incorrect about the splash damage. I came from a league that extensively modded the game. (Created new weapons and the whole bit. Most weapons had some minor form of splash. It was typically set to very low levels though)

[xCico]

I think he want to say that laser needs shorter duration beam, but current stat of weapons is fine, dont need to change anything!

[Ens]

DHS up to 1.5 maybe?

[Strum Wealh]

focuspark, on 18 October 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I support making ballistics slower. As in their projectile velocities should be lowered.'

Typical artillery shells move around 500-1000 m/s.

MWO AC shells all move 900+ m/s.

If they were all slowed by half, they'd be less accurate and more on par with the long (1.0 second) laser burn time.

Actually, the current AC muzzle velocities aren't terribly far off from the higher ends of where they arguably could/should be...

Quote

AC-2:
Caliber Range: 20mm to 40mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 800-1700 m/s
Basis: M61 Vulcan, GAU-8 Avenger, RARDEN, Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202, Bofors 40 mm

AC-5:
Caliber Range: 50mm to 90mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 550-1130 m/s
Basis: 5 cm Pak 38, 90 mm Gun M1/M2/M3, Cannone da 90/53, Ordnance QF 75 mm, Bofors 57 mm Gun

AC-10:
Caliber Range: 100mm to 140mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 590-1750 m/s
Basis: BL 5.5 Inch Medium Gun, 13.5 cm K 09, BL 4 Inch Naval Gun Mk VII, D-10 Tank Gun, Rheinmetall 120 mm Gun

AC-20:
Caliber Range: 150mm to 203mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 300-950 m/s
Basis: 8"/55 caliber gun, 20.3 cm K (E), 15 cm K (E), Skoda 150 mm Model 1918

(estimates, circa Feb. 2012)

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Pardon the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

 
 
================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

[Strum Wealh]

AC, on 18 October 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

I do wish pulse lasers were more like laser machine guns. Just something to make them different from regular lasers. Even though the look different, the mechanic is exactly the same as regular lasers. Go into proving grounds and try it. It is an invisible beam that does damage over time, the visual pulses mean nothing.

The thing is, PGI essentially modeled the behavior of the lasers on their real-world counterparts - "standard" lasers behave pretty much how one would expect a large, high-powered continuous-wave operation laser weapon to behave (e.g. by firing a single, continuous beam of non-trivial duration) and pulse lasers behave pretty much how one would expect a large, high-powered pulsed operation laser weapon to operate (e.g. by firing a burst (of non-trivial duration) of discrete optical pulses of a given (and non-trivial) pulse duration at a set pulse energy & pulse repetition rate, as opposed to a continuous beam), where the firing cycle (the duration of the standard lasers' beams and the pulse lasers' bursts) would be determined by such factors as how much energy could be stored in their capacitors and how hot the interior components (e.g. the lasing chambers, lenses, and so on) can get before suffering catastrophic damage.

As an example of the latter, the pulse laser system used in the "lightcraft" experiments from the 1990s and early 2000s (where said laser was supposedly part of the old SDI/"Star Wars" program) was a 10-kilowatt (10,000 watt) IR laser with a repetition rate of approximately 25-28 pulses per second (source), where each pulse has a duration of approximately 18 microseconds (0.000018 seconds - sourced from the video, below).
(Skip to the 2:10 mark to see some test-firings of the laser, or to the 3:30 mark to see a sequence of several launches of the lightcraft model.)

As a point of reference, a hand-held "TK70 laser pistol" is said (in the novel Tactics of Duty) to emit "one-tenth of a megajoule in a tenth-second pulse" that "dumped energy equivalent to twenty grams of exploding TNT into the target".
One-tenth of one megajoule is 100000 joules, and delivering that amount of energy in 0.10 seconds gives the TK70 (a hand-held laser pistol) a power rating of 1 megawatt (with the pulse described being 10 kilowatts).
As such, even a 'Mech-mounted Small Laser is likely well into the gigawatt or even low-terawatt range...

[Roland]

AC, on 18 October 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

You are correct that it decreased with range, but you are incorrect about the splash damage. I came from a league that extensively modded the game. (Created new weapons and the whole bit. Most weapons had some minor form of splash. It was typically set to very low levels though)

You mean NBT?
Yeah, I played in that league for years, after UTS before it. I also used LBX extensively during most of that time,

It's been a long time since I played mechwarrior 4, but I'm pretty certain that you are mistaken. It's possible that the splash damage you describe was introduced in a late incarnation of the Hardcore modifications by NBT, or possibly even in a Mektek modification (although I do not believe they made any after I stopped playing), that would have been very late in MW4's lifecycle. For the majority of the game's existence, there were only a handful of weapons that had actual splash damage, and the LBX was not one of them. I also did testing with the FASA developers themselves, and most weapons in that game most definitely did not have splash damage. Splash damage in MW4 actually tended to refer to the damage from explosions, such as mech core breaches, or a handful of explosive weapons (some of which only existed in the game for a short while, like the cluster bombs).

Again, it's been many years, so maybe my memory is mistaken. I suppose it's moot anyway, since I'm certainly not gonna bother installing it again to find out, and it's kind of moot given the game is over a decade old at this point.

[BrockSamsonFW]

While it's true that you see a lot of ML and LL, I think it's fair to say that a lot of them are there because it is convenient and not necessarily because they are good. If your primary ballistic config leaves you with a few extra tons and some energy slots left then of course you'll take some ML because, well, why not?

How many people take them as primary weapons though? Of those who do, how many of those builds can compete against a good ballistic build?

I myself run a dedicated energy loadout and do very well with it. I'm usually the top damaging player in a match. However, in all honesty, my loadout sucks. Any non-energy loadout will rip me to shreads in an even fight. I only do well because I understand just how bad it really is and have the self control to stay out any situation that isn't completely lopsided in my favor.

Lasers aren't off by much but they aren't quite even either. I really like the idea of reducing the heat cap but increasing cooldown speed (and being able to remove ghost heat with it). I also like the idea of slower projectile speeds for ballistics. Cut the speed by a large amount and the extra skill required to hit far moving targets will help balance things out.

[Hellcat420]

lasers are never going to compete with ballistics until pgi fixes its stupid backwards heat system. that stupid heat system they came up with is the whole reason they cant balance the weapons properly. make up your mind pgi, either drop the tt weapon stats or fix your ridiculous heat system, because you cant balance weapons with both of them in place.

[RandomLurker]

Lasers depend on aim and being able to hold it long enough for damage to stack up. Mechs with articulated arms are ideal for this. Pilot skill matters a great deal as well. Personally, I find lasers to be deadlier than autocannons because of the ease of hitting moving targets.

The heat system IS stupid though. Ghost heat punishes alpha striking with a non-alpha weapon (LLas)- whats the point of that? I'm strongly in favor of reduced heat cap and increased dissipation.