24 replies to this topic

[ProfAllister]

(This was drafted before the recent light buff, so Some of the information may be outdated. I figured I'd just put in an addendum at the end, factoring in those details.)

Add another vote in defense of Commando. If you want credentials, I played Commandos almost exclusively when I first started, and have mastered 1B, 3A, and 2D.

It's not hard to see that Commandos don't get much love around here, or in-game. It's generally seen as a 25-ton waste of time, space, and money. It has the least armor, tends to be slower than other lights, has no jump jets, and there isn't a massive outcry regarding bugged Commando hitboxes. He costs little more than a DHS refit, so he's cheap, but then he becomes a money pit when people realise that he needs DHS himself, and probably an XL engine, too. After those investments, that bargain basement mech turns out to cost nearly as much as a solid Heavy mech (which has 3x the mass).

Something you have to understand about the Commando is actually mentioned in the original TableTop material - a Commando isn't so much a Light Mech as it is a 25-ton Assault Mech. Also, referring to the TT material and lore, this is a design that's been in continuous operation for nearly 600 years by the time MWO rolls around, so the implication is that it's doing something right.

But no one cares about the lore here. It's not, strictly speaking, relevant in the least.

The perceived underperformance is also a matter of weight, rather than anything related to the loadout itself - the next smallest mech is 20% heavier.

So what does this mean in practical terms? Here are a few bullets that I'll likely flesh out as I go on:

1: Don't play the COM like a light - he's not built for it. He can do the work of a light, but he's designed for other purposes. I'd tell you to play him like an assault, but then we'd have a bunch of COMs with gaping AC/20 holes where their engine used to be.

2: Stock COMs are slow (in terms of Light speed). With their biggest engines, they can pretty much match the speed of a Jenner, Spider, or a 3L Raven, but that's usually sacrificing their advantages as a 25-ton assault in an attempt to imitate the 30- and 35-ton lights that are meant to play as lights.

3: Each weight class has a chassis which can be considered the "missile boat" for that class. Everyone is well aware of the Stalker, Catapult, and Kintaro, but no one seems to notice how the Commando as a general rule puts the missile loadouts of other lights (and a good number of mediums) to shame. While missiles have a poor damage:tonnage ratio when compared to energy weapons (especially the kind sported by lights), they have an excellent damage:heat ratio and much greater burst damage capability.

4: The COM's armor is a fig leaf. I'm not saying go naked (although there are some naked builds that can work well), but the math is pretty clear - A COM's fully-armored cockpit has 18+15=33 HP; A COM's fully-armored center torso has 32+16=48 HP, but the armor has to be split between front and back, leaving an average 32 from either side. When (based on HP rather than hitboxes) it generally makes more tactical sense to go for the CT rather than the cockpit, you know this is a pretty fragile mech.

5: People underestimate COMs. This is mostly related to the metagame, but it's a very real phenomenon. It's so widespread that I often fall into that trap myself, thinking "Oh, look, a COM. He'll be easier to kill than a Jenner or Spider." That thought process blows up in my face more often than you might think.

6: Your Kill:Death ratio will suffer. This isn't because you'll die quickly every game. You are fragile, and you will die, but that's not why the ratio will suffer. The ratio will suffer because it's simply very difficult to score a kill with a COM.

7: The less weight you use, the more your team gets. As I understand, matchmaking was recently patched so that it balances teams based on weight rather than class. That means that the 5-10 tons you're saving by not using a Spider, Raven, or Jenner is 5-10 tons that will upgrade a Centurion or Hunchback to a Dragon, or a Highlander to an Atlas.

Now, on to the application:

A COM is there to fight. Lights skirmish, practice hit-and-run tactics, etc. Obviously, Commandos can do that, too. But we're still talking about a loadout which is generally slower, has less armor, and fewer weapons. And it's a lot easier to corner a mech that doesn't have jump jets. Again, I emphasise, a COM can do the whole light schtick, and even do a decent job at it, but it's not really his most useful role. The commando plays best as a much more agile version of his bigger brothers - he stays with the group as an escort mech, providing fire support, covering the big guys, picking off stragglers, and adding yet another target and distraction to disrupt the opposing force. In this sense, he has more in common with a medium mech than with a light mech - he trades durability and assortment of weapons for maneuverability. When there are multiple fronts/engagements, a COM can easily provide fire support and run interference at one front, and, once the tide turns in his side's favor, run over to the second front and provide an additional 25 tons to his side's effort there.

Like all lights, a COM survives by not getting hit. Unlike other lights, he avoids getting hit by being a poor target. The ideal strategy for a Commando is actually very similar tot he ideal strategy for an Atlas, oddly enough. By the math, it's a losing proposition to attack the Commando, because there are higher yield targets for less effort, but the Commando's job is to make it painful to ignore him. This is where SRM builds especially get the chance to shine. A good Commando will weave between allies and enemies alike, (ideally) disrupting an enemy team's focus, forcing enemies to risk hitting each other, and diverting attention from the big guys and the heavy hitters. If the enemy stays focused on the "real" threats, it gives you free reign to hack away at their rear armor. If the enemy manages to maintain focused fire on you, you will almost certainly die, but a well-executed decoy maneuver will force them to turn their back to your allies, or, at the very least, buy a couple seconds of reprieve for your side.

A COM has arms. Use them! Arm lock is enabled by default. Arms (holding most of your weapon mounts) are among the most significant advantages the COM has over other light mechs, so you're only hurting yourself if you pretend the arm-mounted weapons are torso-mounted.

There is no "right" (or wrong) way to build a COM. The key point I'm getting at here is that a Commando is versatile, and most loadouts are surprisingly practical. The closest thing to a "wrong" build I've tried is a "slow" Commando (to save on weight). Plodding along at 64.8 kph, he becomes a very easy target (and lasers tend to hurt a lot more). In the right group and with the right build, though, even that can work.

Before we get to builds, a few statistics:



Tonnage: 25
Slots: 53
Structure: 2.5/1.5
Engine Size: 12/7 - 10/10.5 - 8/14.5 (18/6.5 - 16/8 - 14/10.5)
Max Speed: 64.8 - 97.2 - 136.1
10 DHS: 1.64 - 1.76 - 1.88
DHS Cost: 12 - 8 - 4
Slots/Tonnage Available: 41/15.5 - 43/12 - 45/8 (35/16 - 37/14.5 - 39/12)
27/16.5 - 29/13 - 31/9 (21/17 - 23/15.5 - 25/13)
Max Armor: 178 (18/32/24/16/24)
Max Armor Weight: 5.56/4.97 (6/5)
Avg Weapon Hardpoints: 4
ECM: 2D
Jump Jets: No
Modules: 2
Torso: 20/90
Arms: 30/40

3A: RA: 1E RT: AMS 1M (6) CT: 1M (6) LA: 1E
1B: RA: 2E RT: AMS CT: 1M (2) LA: 1E
1D: RA: 2E RT: AMS CT: 2M (6,5)
2D: RA: 2M (4x2) RT: AMS CT: 1M (6) LT: ECM LA: 1E
TDK: RA: 2E RT: AMS LA: 2E


A couple notes on these statistics:

All engine details capture values for minimum, stock, and maximum engine grades.
Engine size is listed as slots/weight. It accounts for the weight and slot requirement of the engine itself, as well as the minimum number of heat sinks for a mech to be operational using that engine.
In smaller engines, external dual heat sinks are required. This results in an effective slot penalty, as the effective engine size increases proportionally with the number of external heat sinks required.
Slots/Tonnage available lists the applicable values for standard engines, XL engines, and Endosteel structure with each, respectively.
"Torso" and "Arms" indicates the vertical mobility, then the horizontal mobility. Measured in degrees.
Numbers in parenthesis next to missile hardpoints indicates the number of missile tubes. Volleys greater than the number of tubes will be staggered.

For engine sizes, you should only consider STD 100, 110, 125, 135, 145, 155, 170, 180, 190, 195, 200, 205, 210 and XL 100, 125, 145, 170 180, 195, 200, 210. Any ratings between those will give you less performance at the same weight.

To illustrate the versatility of COMs, here are a few builds I've considered through play:

Tested Builds:

ERPPCx2 - One of my early builds, just for fun. When it fails, it fails spectacularly; when it works, it works quite well. A similar effort could be made with standard PPCs or Large Pulse Lasers. It's not really a reliable build, but it is fun.

Pulse Lasers - An attempt to make a more serious version of the previous model. It's managed to become one of my mainstays, as a decent balance of damage output, range, and survivability.

AMS ECM LRM - I wanted to make something that would work well with a 100 engine, so I figured something designed to sit in the middle of my allies and minimise exposure would be best. It struck me as crazy when I put it together, but it seems to work surprisingly well.

LRM5x3 - Another "split the difference" build, taking a crazy idea and trying to make it marginally more practical. Haven't put it through too many paces, but seems to work well as a fast-moving LRM boat.

SSRM2x3 MPL - Relatively standard-fare light-killer. An alternate build would replace the pulse laser with a tag and add another ton of SSRM ammo. Not terribly useful against bigger mechs, but very good at tearing lights apart.

SRM6 SRM4 MLx2 - A solid all-around build. Good for pretty much anything. Limited range, but 270 is usually a solid range for lights to stay anyway.

Untested Builds:

SRM6x3 - I'm skeptical, but the ability to throw out more damage in an alpha than your total tonnage is pretty appealing. Replacing the SRM6s with SRM4s may be a more practical build overall, and may even allow you to keep an energy sidearm.

LRM5 - I wanted to see what I could put together with a standard 210 engine. 9 Tons isn't much to work with; 3-4 tons if you're adding armor. I also wanted to take advantage of the COM's "zombie" capabilities. By shaving off anything not vital, it maximises survivability. A 1B using a standard 210 with medium lasers and full armor could also work, but it isn't as interesting.


If you're on the fence, hopefully these ideas will convince you to take a second look at Commandos. Worst case, you can hope that PGI will introduce the COM-7B (a variant with Jump Jets).


POST-PATCH:

As you're all well aware, the non-ECM non-Jenner lights got a buff in the Project Phoenix patch. The most obvious change is the increase in engine capacity. This gives the Commando the greatest speed potential of all mechs, at a blistering 155.5 kph (171.1 with Speed Tweak). For you Americans, that's about 96.6 and 106.3 mph. True, it only beats out the Spider and Locust by 1.4 kph (1.8 after tweak), but it's the principle of the matter. Along with the reverse and turning buffs, the non-Jenner non-ECM lights can now easily run circles around bigger mechs - backwards.

But keep in mind that the buff doesn't really change much, because it was applied across the board. Other lights will still fill the light role better, and COMs will still be better suited to their own thing. Here are the revised engine stats for everything other than the 2D:

Engine Size: 12/7 - 10/10.5 - 7/17.5 (18/6.5 - 16/8 - 13/12)
Max Speed: 64.8 - 97.2 - 155.5
10 DHS: 1.64 - 1.76 - 1.94
DHS Cost: 12 - 8 - 2
Slots/Tonnage Available: 41/15.5 - 43/12 - 46/5.5 (35/16 - 37/14.5 - 40/10.5)
27/16.5 - 29/13 - 32/6.5 (21/17 - 23/15.5 - 26/11.5)

[TercieI]

Your point 2 was right. And now it's 100% wrong, which contradicts your bracketing contention that the engine buff didn't change much. I, too, started with Commandos. Being the same speed of slower than "good lights" (Jenners, 3L, 5D) was a death sentence. Being 20 kph faster gives you a chance. And however you want to play, enemy lights know that getting rid of you is their (previously easy) job (contrary to your point 5, sorry). The engine buff changed everything. Running a Commando (exc: 2D) with an engine not near the new max is suicide. You're just a snack for a Jenner.

Also, point 7 is inaccurate. There are no tonnage limits yet.

In fine, I hate to be this guy, but I completely disagree with your advice.

Want to run Commandos? A week ago I'd've told you simply not to. Now, after a bunch of seat time in my up-engined Knell, I'd say: engine up and give it a go.

S

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The entire problem with commandos is that the playerbase has no concept of how to play them. If you try to use them like a jenner or raven, you are going to get flattened. Grab a max size engine and hold back until you have opportunities to sweep in, deal some burst, and geeteeeffoh. If you are even in the frontal firing cone of an enemy, you need to get out immediately.

It's more about finesse than FP, and the locust is the same way.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 19 October 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Jelik]

I run commandos a fair bit and would definitely agree you can't run them like most of the other lights. Got continuously splatted in the early days before I came back to them. There's lots of Zoidberg-esque running away when you bump into the standard lights. Apart from the 2D. With streaks and ECM he can handle the medium laser jenners and the like, the arms give you an edge with the streak lock.

I find the 1B and the 3A most at home in the brawl, distracting the bigger guys while your teammates capitalise. Can deal a lot of damage weaving in and out and a lot of enemy lights won't follow you. If they do, you really have a problem but otherwise your small profile and low priority mean you can consistening rain in the medium lasers or SRMs. 10 SRMs will usually turn a heavy or assault because they expect to find something a little bigger when they do. It's all timing though and knowing when to commit. Targets of opportunity for as long as the opportunity lasts. I imagine the team-mates think you're a chicken for hiding while the big boys close but when you get stuck in it's worth it. Unless you get a lucky shot blowing your right arm off.

But overall the cheeky little fella's just fun to play. He looks great and if only the techs in my mechbay could model a steel baseball cap for his head he'd be perfect.

[kesuga7]

great guide mon
Commando's were tough stuff to play but the commando definitely shined more when i was attacking with my teammates or just aiming for the larger mechs in general

haven't tried it out since i had to sell my commando for mechbays

anyway

• 160.4 kph
  
• 161 armor
  
• 12 doubleheatsinks
  
• 3 medium pulse lasers

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cba00805b2ce4a7

seems like it could do some fine hit and run
You could also do 2 medium pulse 2 small pulse on the deaths knell for more DPS

Edited by kesuga7, 20 October 2013 - 03:51 AM.

[arghmace]

ProfAllister, on 19 October 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

AMS ECM LRM - I wanted to make something that would work well with a 100 engine, so I figured something designed to sit in the middle of my allies and minimise exposure would be best. It struck me as crazy when I put it together, but it seems to work surprisingly well.

Brilliant. This is pure genious, really.

When we get weight limits, you could use a lowly 25 ton mech to provide ECM and AMS cover for a slow heavy hitter lance. All the while bugging enemies with lurms. One possible option would be to change that LRM10 to another LRM5 and using the tonnage for armor.

[TripleEhBeef]

One issue is that the engine buff really only benefitted the laser COMs. The 1B and Knell can run 3/4 MLs with a big engine, but the missile COMs need the weight for launchers and ammo.

[MungFuSensei]

.....Why would you use AMS and ECM together? They can't lock on you, so they won't shoot missiles at you Sure, there's TAG, but I think it's way too wasteful on a 25 ton mech.

[NupetietV]

My ECM Streak Comd 2D:

Hunts down all light, Deadly against Locusts esp.

[NupetietV]

Com 1B: 3xMed Pulse Laser, 155kph (171 with speed tweak)

Runs circles around Med mechs and up, circle strafing them to death. Chase down lights, give them a red butt.

If you want to, drop 1 DHS, and the Med Pulse, and stick an ER PPC.
Run and Gun, sniping people with the ER PPC from the back, since you got the speed to flank. Or dive into enemy groups, popping them as you fly by.

Edited by NupetietV, 20 October 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[stjobe]

This is a simple but surprisingly effective build that has been a long-time favourite of mine: Dual-LL COM-3A. The lower top speed is compensated by having a reach out to 450 (900) metres, enabling you to stay out of Streak range.

[Mogney]

stjobe, on 25 October 2013 - 12:49 AM, said:

This is a simple but surprisingly effective build that has been a long-time favourite of mine: Dual-LL COM-3A. The lower top speed is compensated by having a reach out to 450 (900) metres, enabling you to stay out of Streak range.

Commandos are my favorite mech, but this can be done much better (faster + ECM) with a Raven.

[stjobe]

Mogney, on 25 October 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Commandos are my favorite mech, but this can be done much better (faster + ECM) with a Raven.

Which is completely and utterly beside the point in a thread about Commandos.

[Strayed]

The Commando is a brawler, its great for sticking with a bunch of heavy or mediums mechs as a way to dash in and rip off an exposed arm or leg due to it's small size.

Unfortunately a lot of people can't get it through their heads that lights=/=scouts

[Mogney]

stjobe, on 25 October 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Which is completely and utterly beside the point in a thread about Commandos.

Actually the thread is called "A case for Commandos" and putting out a Commando build that actually hurts the case for Commandos is in opposition to that.

This thread is about showing what Commandos do best, not about showing how they can kind-of-sorta muddle by.

My post is completely on topic.

What Commandos do best IMO is the streakmando which is a fast light killer carries 3 streak launchers, and the Deaths Knell which is the fastest mech in the game with 4 arm mounted lasers. The best brawling light in the game.

[TercieI]

Mogney, on 25 October 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Actually the thread is called "A case for Commandos" and putting out a Commando build that actually hurts the case for Commandos is in opposition to that.

This thread is about showing what Commandos do best, not about showing how they can kind-of-sorta muddle by.

My post is completely on topic.

What Commandos do best IMO is the streakmando which is a fast light killer carries 3 streak launchers, and the Deaths Knell which is the fastest mech in the game with 4 arm mounted lasers. The best brawling light in the game.

QFT.

My first chassis, still a favorite but those are the two I still own. They're the only ones where Commandos are special. The others are inferior options until weight limits come in.

S

Edited by Terciel1976, 25 October 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[rdmgraziel]

Commandos share the *exact* same role as Jenners and Ravens, but with the exception of the 2D's triple Streak build they aren't as effective against other light mechs (and the triple Streak build makes you strictly an anti-light in any case). All 3 are Strikers, who can scout due to speed, but have the firepower to be headaches to heavier 'Mechs. Commandos are just more focused on that (and by extension fighting larger targets) than they are at dueling other lights due to SRM hit registration issues on fast targets. I've chewed up and spat out Atlases in the COM-3A before, but it always under-performs if enemy lights manage to find me and fight me early in the engagement. After SRM hit registration gets fixed that will no longer be the case. After weight-limits are implemented, they'll get another feather in their cap.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

If I can afford the engine I might try something like this in my COM-3A. the 160 KPH could help get back to help if focused by enemy lights.

[stjobe]

Mogney, on 25 October 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Actually the thread is called "A case for Commandos" and putting out a Commando build that actually hurts the case for Commandos is in opposition to that.

This thread is about showing what Commandos do best, not about showing how they can kind-of-sorta muddle by.

My post is completely on topic.

What Commandos do best IMO is the streakmando which is a fast light killer carries 3 streak launchers, and the Deaths Knell which is the fastest mech in the game with 4 arm mounted lasers. The best brawling light in the game.

I don't know man, but I think that build stands up pretty well to the TDK:



You trade 2 points of damage and some speed for twice the effective range. And you don't have to spend any MC to do it.

[TercieI]

stjobe, on 25 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

I don't know man, but I think that build stands up pretty well to the TDK:



You trade 2 points of damage and some speed for twice the effective range. And you don't have to spend any MC to do it.

That's in your hands. In mine, the Knell is vastly superior to a 2-LL light (I've tried it, I know which works for my style, I'd post stats but they mean almost nothing due to horrid noob/build pollution on these chassis).

But that's beside the point: It stacks up very poorly to a similarly equipped Raven-3L, which is what Mogney was saying and what the argument against the "middle" Commandos basically is: There is simply nothing the non-Knell/2D variants do that some other light doesn't do (usually much) better.

When weight limits come, "10 tons" will be a valid point. Right now, it's not.

EDIT: BTW, arguing with you here, but with all respect. I want you to know I'm a fan of your forum contributions and Commando advocacy, stjobe.

S

Edited by Terciel1976, 25 October 2013 - 07:14 AM.