Always nice to see something like this start discussion.
Now, to make a few points here and there:
Terciel1976, on 19 October 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:
Your point 2 was right. And now it's 100% wrong, which contradicts your bracketing contention that the engine buff didn't change much. I, too, started with Commandos. Being the same speed of slower than "good lights" (Jenners, 3L, 5D) was a death sentence. Being 20 kph faster gives you a chance. And however you want to play, enemy lights know that getting rid of you is their (previously easy) job (contrary to your point 5, sorry). The engine buff changed everything. Running a Commando (exc: 2D) with an engine not near the new max is suicide. You're just a snack for a Jenner.
Also, point 7 is inaccurate. There are no tonnage limits yet.
In fine, I hate to be this guy, but I completely disagree with your advice.
Want to run Commandos? A week ago I'd've told you simply not to. Now, after a bunch of seat time in my up-engined Knell, I'd say: engine up and give it a go.
S
Intelligent, civil, and well reasoned, but also mostly wrong.
Nothing changed in point 2 except for the fact that COMs (other than 2D) have a better max speed than Jenners and Ravens and comparable to Locusts and Spiders (other than 5D). Stock COMs still start with the same engine, which is slow for a light.
Not following your "same speed" argument. You're still not going to win a chase. It's like saying you can outrun a cop if he's going 100 mph and you're going 105. Except the cop has jump jets and authorization (even encouragement) to use deadly force. If you're talking about being compared to all weight classes, there's still nothing to make the COM shine on the speed field - all the non-Jenner non-ECM lights got pretty similar buffs.
And you're also missing the point on #5. I wasn't talking about light vs light. I was talking about COM vs whatever. In a 1-on-1, yeah, the COM is going to have it rough - but if you're 1-on-1, you're probably doing it wrong. Unlike other lights, who usually shine by doing their own thing, COMs work best when working with others. The key point about #5 is that COMs are generally judged as a low-priority target (or a target of opportunity). The thing about low priority targets is that they're still top priority if they're the only target. Ideally, COMs are only a desirable target when the COM is purposely making himself a target (i.e., running interference to pull big guns away from your own team's big guns).
And the only COM that could be called a Jenner snack is a specialised build or one being played horribly wrong. When COMs fight lights, they do best by exploiting the vulnerabilities of lights (including COMs themselves). COMs are idealised for urban combat - close quarters, lots of cover, and plenty of places to peek out from. There aren't too many buildings in the battlefields, and they tend to be pretty wide (to allow the big guys to get through), so that kind of defeats that advantage. But there is one situation where there are building-sized structures in close-knit groups - right in the middle of a group of larger mechs. And since those mechs are covered in pointy hurty bits, most other lights don't want to be anywhere near them.
On the larger subject, though, it goes back to the speed. Your 20kph won't save you in most situations - not on its own, at least. It's not a COM that's a Jenner snack; it's a COM that's afraid to fight that's a Jenner snack. You may have less armor and weapons, and similar speed, but you still have enough to make a Jenner hurt pretty bad (and a good COM can even kill a Jenner 1-on-1). I will, however, concede that the reverse speed buff may help in other lights fighting Jenenrs. Again, a COM plays more like an assault than a light at times. If you turn tail and run in your Atlas, you're dead fast. COMs are better equipped to disengage against slow foes, and the fight is nothing like the way an assault fights, but (in light vs light situations) the same strategy holds - when outgunned, it's better to give em hell than die like a coward.
Concede the point for #7. I thought I had read something about that in the patch notes, but it was an honest mistake. There's certainly the possibility that tonnage- or BV- based matchmaking could come in the future, though.
As you can imagine, I disagree with Scotsman's speed-based argument. Lights are generally excellent at cleanup, but again, that's a general light role, which COMs can do well, but other lights can generally do better. If it makes it easier to think about it, you can consider a COM to be a 25-ton Medium the same way that a Cicada is a 40-ton light.
Could drop to LRM 5 from LRM 10, and 3 more tons would certainly be nice to work with, but the problem with armor is that it means you're a target. On this build, if you're a target, you're already dead. Insurance agaisnt lucky shots or an ambush is always nice, admitted, but there's also the missile launch profile to consider. Due to tubes, 2x LRM 5 and LRM 10 makes a volley of 14 (6 + 4 + 4) and then a volley of 6 (4 +1 + 1); 3x LRM 5 makes a volley of 13 (5 + 4 + 4) and then a volley of 2 (0 + 1 + 1).
The engine buff may have primarily benefited the energy COMs, but that's because the missile COMS didn't really need the help as much.
AMS and ECM paired has a few good reasons: 1) as a failsafe - you don't want an ECM jam or a lucky PPC shot to expose your team to missile fire, which leads to 2) you aren't protecting yourself - AMS can shoot down missiles aimed at people outside your ECM bubble.
I can imagine situations where a 2xLL COM could perform a role that a comparable RVN-3L couldn't (RVN's dependence on right-handedness is one). That being said, this idea is part of what lead me to eventually settle on the 2xMPL 1xLPL. I decided that range wasn't as useful as damage outpit. Keep in mind - the greater the range, the easier to track and hold a bead. Lights generally do much better at "melee range" where it's harder to keep them in your sights.
Streakmando is a solid light-killer, but it's far from the only trick up their sleeve. Haven't done too much with TDK, so I'm willing to give the other statement the benefit of the doubt, but I do think you're overemphasising how much of a difference is made by the speed (as opposed to profile, hitboxes, etc).
Noticing a distressing number of people talking about a COM going solo (or nearly solo). Yeah, it can pay off, but it's much better to keep yourself (somewhat) tethered, to ensure a route of egress. If your common refrain is that a COM gets in trouble when other lights start picking on you, make the picking on you less appealing. The name of the game is working as a team, and what do you know, working as a team tends to be more profitable.
Disagree that the RVN-3L is superior to most/all COMs (even pre-buff). It has a different profile, limited arm movement, lopsided hardpoints, huge ST (which is exactly as tough as a COM's CT). It can mount more at the same speed, but that logic would lead to the conclusion that the Boar's Head is superior to most/all Awesomes. They're different chasses, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Same goes for the claim that JR7 is the ultimate light. By the numbers, there may be something to that claim, but the numbers we count miss a lot of very important details.
Terciel1976, on 25 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:
I'd agree with you if I agreed with your reading of the original post. But the OP's thesis was "Commandos aren't like other lights. Run them differently and they're a viable alternative." But this is wrong. As you note, there's just nothing the "middle" Commandos do that a Jenner (or some other light or both) can't do better. And that's why the comparisons to other lights keep being made and are, IMO, completely valid and address (and defeat) the very point of the thread.
Not sure what you mean by "viable alternative" but I think that's missing the point."Viable alternative" means they're filling the same role. My argument is that COMs are primarily built for completely different roles. A COM can do a standard light's job (and do it well), and other lights can certainly fill the role of escorts or wolfpack tactics (and even do
parts of those jobs better), but they're each built for a specific purpose. Of course there's going to be overlap, but your 35-ton jumping fixed-arm mech with the exact same weapon loadout as a proposed COM simply isn't capable of the same feats of weaving between friend and/or foe. They can do a good job of it, and even take some hits that would drop a COM, but it's not what they're built for. (As a matter of fact, in that situation, jump jets are more of a liability than an asset, as any actual use of them restricts your motion to a predictable parabola and gives all your enemies a clear shot at you).
By all means, provide comparisons to other lights. I wouldn't be surprised if some of my proposed builds would work better on other chasses than they would on COMs. But you can't make those comparisons while ignoring hardpoint location, hitboxes, profile/size, etc.
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