228 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

People better at math than me have shown that going after weapons instead of the kill is largely a waste of time.

Now sure, in a situation where someone who is a terrible shot turned some guy piloting a mech with a standard engine into swiss cheese, you might shoot off an already damaged arm when you encounter him.

But all things being equal, against very skilled players, you are seeing what I outlined earlier.

TIme to kill is the most important thing.

I know all of this, but taking out a side torso on any mech that mounts all weapons on that side is the most effecient way to take it out of the game.

[Noth]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

lol, dude.... I hope you realize common sense to you, is vastly different from the rest of the world.

For instance. Texting and driving is the dumbest thing you can EVER do... but a LOT of people do it... it's common sense to me not to do it, but there are a lot of dumb people in the world.

It is still common sense. What you are asking for is basically removing that. It will just narrow mech and weapon use down further to those that have the best convergence rates and damage. The only result is that matches last a bit longer. THe higher skilled player still wins and chances are the new player gets stomped on even harder.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Varied weapon types are used all the time outside of competitive play. Without the pinpoint it would just simply be some other thing that takes it's place. Also the heat cap is not much higher than TT (heat cap varied with heatsinks there too since with more you could build more heat before even checking the heat table).

Varied weapon types are used by people who have NO idea what they are doing. You NEVER balance around those people. Many great games before this one have traveled that road and realized it was a mistake.

Keep in mind, I'm advocating against INSTANT pinpoint convergence.

And the heat scale in this game blows, I'm not even going to bother getting into the TT vs. MW:O argument, the fact that it required GHOST HEAT to keep people from using abominations with 4+ PPC's is all you need to look at.

Instead they should have adjusted down the heat cap and increase dissipation creating a situation where you can't have huge alpha's like that.

[100 Tonne]

the trouble is that there have been lots of suggestions to get rid of the problem. One guy suggest a battle computer. Each weapon would have a number value, you not being able to fire high damage weapons together = greater than the value of the battle computer. If you could not alpha high damage weapons together then the damage would be spread more.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I know all of this, but taking out a side torso on any mech that mounts all weapons on that side is the most effecient way to take it out of the game.

That mech is still not out of the game is the problem. It could still cap, it will still cause your teammates to fire on it thus wasting damage potential, it could just ram you making it hard for you to line up shots.

Kills are what you go for.

[Dudeman3k]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

But its not going to work like that.

That new player is going to stare striaght at that enemy mech, and the skilled player is going to take the less than half a second required to adjust their aim and finish the job.

New player made less of an impact, skilled player still rolled them.

Even if they did turn to run because their weapons are on cooldown, they just killed themselves by giving their back armor and an AC40 boat.

"and the skilled player is going to take the less than half a second required to adjust their aim and finish the job"

that right there is music to my ears..... the pilot had to "adjust fire!"... now, is there a chance of over adjustment? YES! under adjustment? YES! Miss click after the first shot? YES!

instead of the now present. Instant 40 Damage. done.

I know you know where I'm getting at. The skill gap required to master the function is steep, yes. but It also helps survivability from experienced pilots because of added variables they need to preform in turn.

[Noth]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Varied weapon types are used by people who have NO idea what they are doing. You NEVER balance around those people. Many great games before this one have traveled that road and realized it was a mistake.

Keep in mind, I'm advocating against INSTANT pinpoint convergence.

And the heat scale in this game blows, I'm not even going to bother getting into the TT vs. MW:O argument, the fact that it required GHOST HEAT to keep people from using abominations with 4+ PPC's is all you need to look at.

Instead they should have adjusted down the heat cap and increase dissipation creating a situation where you can't have huge alpha's like that.

Actually varied weapons are used by the majority. The only place you don't really see any are in the top tier and there you would still only see select weapons because that is what it is like in top tier, you find the best and use and abuse it. All it would do is shift the meta to something else. It wouldn't actually fix many of the issues of certain weapons being used over others.

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

"and the skilled player is going to take the less than half a second required to adjust their aim and finish the job"

that right there is music to my ears..... the pilot had to "adjust fire!"... now, is there a chance of over adjustment? YES! under adjustment? YES! Miss click after the first shot? YES!

instead of the now present. Instant 40 Damage. done.

I know you know where I'm getting at. The skill gap required to master the function is steep, yes. but It also helps survivability from experienced pilots because of added variables they need to preform in turn.

THat wouldn't add any survivability. It allows the new player to live a half second more while dealing less damage than he would have as it is now.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Actually varied weapons are used by the majority. The only place you don't really see any are in the top tier and there you would still only see select weapons because that is what it is like in top tier, you find the best and use and abuse it. All it would do is shift the meta to something else. It wouldn't actually fix many of the issues of certain weapons being used over others.

You obviously aren't capable of understanding the points i'm making, you keep holding onto the fact that bad players using varied load-outs mean the game is fine, which makes this debate very boring.

So good luck with that.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

People better at math than me have shown that going after weapons instead of the kill is largely a waste of time.

Now sure, in a situation where someone who is a terrible shot turned some guy piloting a mech with a standard engine into swiss cheese, you might shoot off an already damaged arm when you encounter him.

But all things being equal, against very skilled players, you are seeing what I outlined earlier.

TIme to kill is the most important thing.

If you see a weak point you take out that weak point. HGN-733C without it's RT is a stick and thus non threat. Jagerbombs run XLs, you take out either one side torso. Atlas has weakened RT and LT? you take em out and make it a stick. It's really about maths yeah - how much damage the enemy can deal and how short of a time it takes for you to neutralize that damage by killing or crippling so that you can move on to the next threat as fast as possible.

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

"and the skilled player is going to take the less than half a second required to adjust their aim and finish the job"

that right there is music to my ears..... the pilot had to "adjust fire!"... now, is there a chance of over adjustment? YES! under adjustment? YES! Miss click after the first shot? YES!

instead of the now present. Instant 40 Damage. done.

I know you know where I'm getting at. The skill gap required to master the function is steep, yes. but It also helps survivability from experienced pilots because of added variables they need to preform in turn.

This does nothing to change the high alpha meta, other than make it the high .5 second alpha meta.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

IV Amen, on 19 October 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

If you see a weak point you take out that weak point. HGN-733C without it's RT is a stick and thus non threat. Jagerbombs run XLs, you take out either one side torso. Atlas has weakened RT and LT? you take em out and make it a stick. It's really about maths yeah - how much damage the enemy can deal and how short of a time it takes for you to neutralize that damage by killing or crippling so that you can move on to the next threat as fast as possible.

Did you even bother to read my post? I've already accounted for XL engines as well as encountering a mech that already has damage.

Why don't you actually go back and read the thread before you address me?

Good god, it's like dealing with ADD kids around here.

[Roughneck45]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

That mech is still not out of the game is the problem. It could still cap, it will still cause your teammates to fire on it thus wasting damage potential, it could just ram you making it hard for you to line up shots.

Kills are what you go for.

I think you are wayyyy overestimating the threat of a stick, epseically in competative 12's.

[Noth]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

You obviously aren't capable of understanding the points i'm making, you keep holding onto the fact that bad players using varied load-outs mean the game is fine, which makes this debate very boring.

So good luck with that.

You are advocating slower convergence and fixed weapons style with a changed heat system in order to provide varied builds at a competitive level. That simply won't happen at all. the very nature of competitive play has you take what is best. There will always be a best weapon or build at that level with little variation. In turn such a change would make it harder on the new players to compete. Heck it could even throw the balance farther off so that those competitive builds bleed down into the lower tiers even more often.

Right now the competitive meta has relatively little bleed into the masses compared to what it has ever been before.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

I think you are wayyyy overestimating the threat of a stick, epseically in competative 12's.

A threat is a threat, it takes you one extra alpha to end that mech, instead of just shooting out it's weapons.

It's stupid to fight to disarm in this game.

[Roughneck45]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

A threat is a threat, it takes you one extra alpha to end that mech, instead of just shooting out it's weapons.

It's stupid to fight to disarm in this game.

but its a stick, not a threat.

I'm not saying you shouldn't aim to kill with the ct or xl's or legs, but if they have a crit torso with significant weapons to lose and you can put a single shot into it instead of the CT, it is worth it.

Edited by Roughneck45, 19 October 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

This does nothing to change the high alpha meta, other than make it the high .5 second alpha meta.

lol, so firing 0.5 second after the initial shot is still considered an "alpha" now?? funny, that sounds a lot like "chain fire" to me.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

You are advocating slower convergence and fixed weapons style with a changed heat system in order to provide varied builds at a competitive level. That simply won't happen at all. the very nature of competitive play has you take what is best. There will always be a best weapon or build at that level with little variation. In turn such a change would make it harder on the new players to compete. Heck it could even throw the balance farther off so that those competitive builds bleed down into the lower tiers even more often.

Right now the competitive meta has relatively little bleed into the masses compared to what it has ever been before.

I don't care about there being a best build. That's the problem, you are arguing something I don't care about. There will ALWAYS be a best build, you are correct.

My argument is, I want the best build to include 2 medium lasers, an SRM, a LRM and an AC. Instead of just 2 PPC and a Gauss, or 3 AC/5's, or whatever combination of super similar weapons people decide to use after PGI puts in a useless nerf.

This will increase survivability and reduce the amount of single click alpha's due to differences in weapon speeds, spread and such.

What will happen is shooting off an arm becomes an actual viable tactic again, and mechs will take a lot of damage spread all over their components thus leading to matches requiring more decision making.

[Sephlock]

The solution is to make LRMs good again.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roughneck45, on 19 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

but its a stick, not a threat.

I'm not saying you shouldn't aim to kill with the ct or xl's or legs, but if they have a crit torso with significant weapons to lose and you can put a single shot into it instead of the CT, it is worth it.

For god's sakes, once again.

IF you run into a damaged mech and you can take a quick shot to cripple it, do so.

I AM NOT DISCUSSING THAT SITUATION.

I'm saying when you are against great players, when you meet on the battlefield, you are shooting the same spots over and over.

The only time the damage spreads is when mistakes are made.

[Roughneck45]

Dudeman3k, on 19 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

lol, so firing 0.5 second after the initial shot is still considered an "alpha" now?? funny, that sounds a lot like "chain fire" to me.

Well thats cause you gave me an AC40 jager with no convergence to work with. The 733 will still put 2 ppcs and 2 ultras into the same spot with one alpha.