228 replies to this topic

[Psikez]

Why not

[carl kerensky]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 19 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

You are debating under the assertion that PGI will never change anything (You are probably right by the way).

I'm debating based on the assertion that the game in fundamentally flawed and you need to make changes towards a style of play that limits alpha's and boating FORCING skilled players to use varied builds which makes it much more difficult to hit the same spot repeatedly.

This effectively increases the skill necessary to play and makes it a lot less twitch and a lot more about making good decisions with each shot.

This.....great post and the summary of the fundamental flaws with MWO. Your very on mark Nicholas. The game still feels wrong in gameplay aspects and this is part of the problem.

Ck

Edited by carl kerensky, 23 October 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Noth, on 19 October 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

You mean TT? Lore and stories varied widely in how effective mechs and weapons are. TT does not translate well at all to real time. The heat system is ripped almost directly from TT (Except we shut down the instant we reach our cap and yes TT has a variable cap before even reaching the heat penalties).

There can be no meta that matches lore or the TT simply from the fact that TT is a turn based game and lore varies too much. As long as there are competitive teams seeking the best builds, there will always bee a dominant meta. In low tierd games you actually see something closer to the lore (mixed and varied builds, super specialized builds are not super common place like in the top tier).

the heat system in this game is the complete opposite of the tt heat system. tt has no variable cap. every mech has 30 heat capacity. no more no less, heat sinks only increase heat dissapation and not heat capacity, all mechs reach the same heat penalities at the same amount of heat in tt.

Edited by Hellcat420, 23 October 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[divinedisclaimer]

Oh, also you guys like to talk about how bad the new players get rolled.

I'm new and I'm rolling your face off 2/3 of the time .

Mechwarrior fans that don't like shooters should F-off and go play with the little plastic figures, this is a shooter; you don't play it just because you like Mechwarrior or you're gonna get trashed. You play it because you like shooters and Mechwarrior. You complaint is not with MWO, but with shooters as a genre.

Try Counter-Strike, then come back and cry like a little baby about alpha damage that usually takes 3 hits to kill you while stationary.

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 23 October 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Hellcat420]

divinedisclaimer, on 23 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Oh, also you guys like to talk about how bad the new players get rolled.

I'm new and I'm rolling your face off 2/3 of the time .

Mechwarrior fans that don't like shooters should F-off and go play with the little plastic figures, this is a shooter; you don't play it just because you like Mechwarrior or you're gonna get trashed. You play it because you like shooters and Mechwarrior. You complaint is not with MWO, but with shooters as a genre.

Try Counter-Strike, then come back and cry like a little baby about alpha damage that usually takes 3 hits to kill you while stationary.

LOLOLOLOL i hate to break it to you but counterstrike is for codwarriors who want to pretend they are hardcore.

[Mister Blastman]

FearTheAmish, on 23 October 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

The problem with this is Jump sniping is NOT the be all end all. Currently you can do it either with PPC or Gauss not Both. Also its only useful on certain maps because if you can get in close to them the heat of PPC builds cause them to either Overheat or output a lot less damage. While yes you can have a Victor with AC20/PPC the AC20 fire rate is very slow and can be avoided via torso twist, and with the UAC/PPC HGN with torso twisting and aiming for their arm you can almost completely disarm them in close range combat.

Current Meta seems to be more Mid range backed up by jump snipers. More of a role warfare setting, with whoever can deploy Jump snipers to make the defenders keep their heads down the best wins because the Med range can destroy the opponents Jump snipe/Brawler group.

EDIT: Also Quoting a Troll thread made by PEEF to point out how silly it is to ask for Spider Nerfs usually doesn't help your arguements.

I'm sorry you are in low ELO. When you get to the top, let us know. Then you'll agree with what we're saying.

[101011]

divinedisclaimer, on 23 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Oh, also you guys like to talk about how bad the new players get rolled.

I'm new and I'm rolling your face off 2/3 of the time .

Mechwarrior fans that don't like shooters should F-off and go play with the little plastic figures, this is a shooter; you don't play it just because you like Mechwarrior or you're gonna get trashed. You play it because you like shooters and Mechwarrior. You complaint is not with MWO, but with shooters as a genre.

Try Counter-Strike, then come back and cry like a little baby about alpha damage that usually takes 3 hits to kill you while stationary.

Did I just read that? You might want to find a different game, before you find out exactly what kind of people play it. Heck, it's developed by the fans of 'the little plastic figures' (the good ones are metal, by the way). This game is meant to emulate those same figures. You're so great at Counter Strike? Go play Counter Strike! You obviously don't care about the lore of this franchise, so how can you possibly know what the game balance is supposed to be like?

[Strajen Marez]

Hey guys, I noticed the buzz word 'meta' is being thrown around a lot in this thread. By using the power of Science!^{TM (Not real science)} I will show you that this thread is single handedly responsible (Science!^TM does not condone or endorse this fact*) for a noticeable up-tick in the use of the word, particularly as a common, non-capitalized word .

Exhibit A: http://screencast.com/t/F9ponB62p

I hope at least everyone here understands the definition of 'meta' and are not just using it merely because of some abstract group-think assumption of how certain lasers are 'totally meta bro' over other lasers.

>_>


-SM


* = May or may not be an actual fact

Edited by Strajen Marez, 23 October 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[FearTheAmish]

Mister Blastman, on 23 October 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I'm sorry you are in low ELO. When you get to the top, let us know. Then you'll agree with what we're saying.

Im sorry i was talking about 12 mans that aren't ELO bracketed and using RHoD as a back drop... Try again ego boy. Maybe when you stop pug droping and get in on the competative scene you will agree with what im saying.

Edited by FearTheAmish, 23 October 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

divinedisclaimer, on 23 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Oh, also you guys like to talk about how bad the new players get rolled.

I'm new and I'm rolling your face off 2/3 of the time .

Mechwarrior fans that don't like shooters should F-off and go play with the little plastic figures, this is a shooter; you don't play it just because you like Mechwarrior or you're gonna get trashed. You play it because you like shooters and Mechwarrior. You complaint is not with MWO, but with shooters as a genre.

Try Counter-Strike, then come back and cry like a little baby about alpha damage that usually takes 3 hits to kill you while stationary.

HAHAHA!!!! didnt realize you can use your Primary, secondary, and Knife all at the same time!!.. I didnt realize CS had an ALPHA strike!! Buahahahaha. This made my day.

So what your saying is, All games should fundamentally be the same if it fall in the line of a shooter? lol, I suppose the mechs should have regenerating armor too. hahahaha

I'm beginning to think these "new era" gamers are afraid of a little challenge in games... it terrifies them with the idea of being mindful of how to operate a different mechanic.... Oh man..... thats a scary thought

[Mister Blastman]

FearTheAmish, on 23 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Im sorry i was talking about 12 mans that aren't ELO bracketed and using RHoD as a back drop... Try again ego boy. Maybe when you stop pug droping and get in on the competative scene you will agree with what im saying.

Oh man, you got me! I totally don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a nub.

How do you get out of 3rd person view again? I can't figure that out.

[Strajen Marez]

Mister Blastman, on 23 October 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

How do you get out of 3rd person view again? I can't figure that out.

F4 I think. Don't quote me on that though.

[Chronojam]

nehebkau, on 23 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Did that really happen?!? If it did, it puts a TON of things into perspective.

The action starts about 1:10 into the video, you can skip there if you don't want to listen to the pre-game smacktalk. Keep an eye on the heat bars during the fight.

[Psikez]

FearTheAmish, on 23 October 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Only really competative high alpha right now is the Guass Kitty.

Quoted for hilarity factor

Chronojam, on 23 October 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

The action starts about 1:10 into the video, you can skip there if you don't want to listen to the pre-game smacktalk. Keep an eye on the heat bars during the fight.

thems the good old days right there

[Lightfoot]

I think players just like to complain about being destroyed and if you got this wonderful de-convergence you would hate it also because you could no longer destroy anything before being destroyed.

I have never asked for any nerf in MWO, but I am surprised that PGI always caves to the nerf-herders with some weird nerf like Ghost Heat. Gauss de-sync. Things that do not come from Battletech. Battletech should be the source for balancing MWO since that is where the mechs come from and were balanced to work. That way all the Mechs would be balanced instead of the AC-only Mech Balance MWO has ended up with.

In my view damage spread caused by moving the mech simulates the random hit rolls in Battletech which has no way to express movement damage spread other than a random hit dynamic.





.

Edited by Lightfoot, 23 October 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[Xanquil]

Hellcat420, on 23 October 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

the heat system in this game is the complete opposite of the tt heat system. tt has no variable cap. every mech has 30 heat capacity. no more no less, heat sinks only increase heat dissapation and not heat capacity, all mechs reach the same heat penalities at the same amount of heat in tt.

You do know that in TT that you can fire as many weapons as you want without ever hitting the chart as long as you have the heat sinks to negate it before the end of round. So if you have 20 DHS you can fire 4 PPCs without ever suffering any side effects. The heat scale in MW:O is the same, but with ghost heat, and the side effects for going past that are not there.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you change that you simply slip into a dps meta as it will become more important to throw out as much damage as possible compared to precision damage. While different, is really no better than the Alpha meta.

Its a lot better than the alpha meta actually. Damage is amplified greatly by pinpoint convergence. Its the main reason mechs die so fast. At least in a DPS meta you would live much longer.

[Martin Oberhofer]

may be i missed the def of an alpha build...
take the 5ML loctus -> 25DMG pinpoint if you can aim (easier on assaults than spiders... but still) is it an alpha build?
Swayback?

Surely a AC40 jager counts as one
Well i drive them to (funny things), but thier Punch cames at a price -> Ammo exlopsion -> XL Engine
so every high alpha has it flaws - the pilot actually makes more diff than in TT

When in TT you face an AS7, when did you always hit his right shoulder - as it is in MWO cutting his firepower by ~50%

A skilled pilot will always aim for the weak spots -> side torsos, catapults head, Quickdraws legs
you will never ever balance that out -> luckly

A 6ML Jenner has for instance a nice punch and if hes good at placing the damage its a real threat
IMO the reason why so much players tend to high alpha is, because if they hit they get rewards (Compoment destrucion/kills)
I tend to make more kills in the mechs i do the most damage...

[Victor Morson]

All of your data OP is from random pug games and is thus flawed.

All it takes is a few newbies to not know to turn around and you get hilariously inflated damage. Also again, damage isn't everything.

A guy who does 300 damage to a target and fails to kill it is probably a horrendous shot that failed to land hits on the key components. The guy who's been shooting at whatever with his AC/2s and plinking it all over worthless arms has nice damage that accomplished nothing. Etc, etc. It's definitely more of an issue than you realize, but given this is a 9 page thread now, you've probably already heard this.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 October 2013 - 11:07 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

Lightfoot, on 23 October 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I think players just like to complain about being destroyed and if you got this wonderful de-convergence you would hate it also because you could no longer destroy anything before being destroyed.

I have never asked for any nerf in MWO, but I am surprised that PGI always caves to the nerf-herders with some weird nerf like Ghost Heat. Gauss de-sync. Things that do not come from Battletech. Battletech should be the source for balancing MWO since that is where the mechs come from and were balanced to work. That way all the Mechs would be balanced instead of the AC-only Mech Balance MWO has ended up with.

In my view damage spread caused by moving the mech simulates the random hit rolls in Battletech which has no way to express movement damage spread other than a random hit dynamic.





.

"Battletech should be the source for balancing MWO since that is where the mechs come from and were balanced to work"

I agree, completely. And in the books (as Pht has mentioned) you can only call to target specific points of a mech (in a FPS 100% pin-point convergence) with ONE weapon. As for the rest, as you know, are randomly chosen with the dice. So how do you simulate both? The answer is simple. Multiple cross-hairs. You can chose where and when you want to target (like iin any FPS) but with muliple weapon systems, each one needs its on marker per location on the chassis.

as It stands, you are making every called shot with EVERY weapon... and in the books, that would ruin you, in any game, with how mech loadouts work. Imagine playing TT where you can alpha and call out where you wanted to hit instead of rolling for it.... it would make the hardest hitters your most valuable, this is what we are experiencing now.

Mech movement does simulate pilot skill, but it doesnt fix the "to-hit" issue. That can only be solved with "readjusting aim" per location of weapon mounted.

This isn't a cry for "NERF!" it's a cry to a fundamental error that has existed in EVERY FPS MW title to date. If I recall correctly, PGI wanted to stray away from that.... but instead, are following in its same foot steps by overlooking how the weapons hit. The "To-Hit" factor.

Martin Oberhofer, on 23 October 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

may be i missed the def of an alpha build...
take the 5ML loctus -> 25DMG pinpoint if you can aim (easier on assaults than spiders... but still) is it an alpha build?
Swayback?

Surely a AC40 jager counts as one
Well i drive them to (funny things), but thier Punch cames at a price -> Ammo exlopsion -> XL Engine
so every high alpha has it flaws - the pilot actually makes more diff than in TT

When in TT you face an AS7, when did you always hit his right shoulder - as it is in MWO cutting his firepower by ~50%

A skilled pilot will always aim for the weak spots -> side torsos, catapults head, Quickdraws legs
you will never ever balance that out -> luckly

A 6ML Jenner has for instance a nice punch and if hes good at placing the damage its a real threat
IMO the reason why so much players tend to high alpha is, because if they hit they get rewards (Compoment destrucion/kills)
I tend to make more kills in the mechs i do the most damage...

I also pilot these builds because I get the same (or even better) results using them. Sure, my Damage is substantally lower, but my Kills are way higher because there is a punch. I'm calling out my "To-Hit" locations with all of my weapons (the whole 3 of them) and destroying the component vs. chipping away as if I were to "roll" for them. And again, you can actually only simulate the "to-hit" by adding a "readjusting fire" mechanic, either with multiple cross hairs or cone of fire (blleehhh, cone of fire)