228 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Depends on the weapons involved. I can kill a Shadowhawk with two Wahrammers in two turns of fire, so yeah I do think so. you are looking at 140 tons of bad v 55!

And I am also thinking about the feel of the game. A game I have played since the late 80s! Both on TT and (late 90s) computer.

Yeah but to kill a Shadowhawk with two Warhammer's it would require random rolls to hit properly right? You could potentially have the 4 PPC'***** an Arm, a right Torso, a Leg and CT on the first round, then hit the CT, the other Leg, Left torso and the same arm in the next round.

That would not cripple a Shadowhawk, and would take 20 seconds to complete.

In Mechwarrior Online, you round the corner, they fire all 4 PPC's into your CT, and then wait for the recycle and do it again. Then you are pretty much dead, and that takes about 5 seconds.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

No I am focusing on feel. 30 point hits are fine by me. So are forty point hits. It's what I am used to feeling for 30 years.

Sorry man, I don't feel like you are focusing on the feel of the game since you keep using numbers.

The feel isn't about the numbers, it's about the fact that Medium mechs dissolve into mush within seconds in this game.

Even an Orion is not long for this world.

You literally have to be in an Assault to have any staying power at all in this game, and even then, Assaults don't feel like they are a KING OF THE BATTLEFIELD.

[Joseph Mallan]

With 4 PPCs and 8 Medium lasers total, 160 damage in 2 turns, it is possible to cripple a single Shadow Hawk.

For the record I have seen 5 Heavy Mechs fail to bring down a single Wolfhound in 3-4 turns though

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 October 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

No I am focusing on feel. 30 point hits are fine by me. So are forty point hits. It's what I am used to feeling for 30 years.

What? No you're not.
This is the first post of yours that I've seen in a while that didn't have a baziilion different numbers and conversions back and forth between TT and MWO, taking into account the armor changes, rof changes, and the positioning of the Moon.

Also, I edited my old post to ask you a question, that I believe you missed. So here it is again:

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Like I said 30 here is equal to a single Gauss on TT!

In TT, could you place your Gauss shot exactly onto your enemies damaged RT because you knew they were rocking an XL Engine?

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

With 4 PPCs and 8 Medium lasers (my kinda Warhammers) 160 damage total in 2 turns, it is possible to cripple a single Shadow Hawk.

The heat on that would be 64pts per turn. How many Heatsinks did your Warhammer have again?

Edited by Fut, 24 October 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Artgathan]

@ Joseph Mallan:

Yes, a 30 Alpha here translates to only a single Gauss Strike in TT. But consider that in TT that weapons capable of delivering such high damage (Gauss, AC/20, LRM20, LRM15) are not as common as they are in MW:O, where nearly every mech is capable of mounting a 30 pinpoint alpha.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fut, on 24 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

What? No you're not.
This is the first post of yours that I've seen in a while that didn't have a baziilion different numbers and conversions back and forth between TT and MWO, taking into account the armor changes, rof changes, and the positioning of the Moon.

After 30 years of gaming those numbers are the feel! The rate of fire doesn't change if you think about it. Every to hit dice roll is the same as one cycle of MW:O shooting. So rate of rire isn't any different Its still 15:30 points of damage per shot. The Position of the Moon only affects your hand in Dragon Poker, not Here!

Quote

Also, I edited my old post to ask you a question, that I believe you missed. So here it is again:



In TT, could you place your Gauss shot exactly onto your enemies damaged RT because you knew they were rocking an XL Engine?

Yes. With targeting computer and called shots. I could also call 5 Clan large pulse lasers into a Mechs center torso 50 damage pin point.

Quote

The heat on that would be 64pts per turn. How many Heatsinks did your Warhammer have again?

That is 2 Warhammers sir I didn't think you would miss that. So 32 Heat per WHammer. 16 double sinks thanks to removing the SRM6... That would be plenty for that arsenal You would agree?

Artgathan, on 24 October 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

@ Joseph Mallan:

Yes, a 30 Alpha here translates to only a single Gauss Strike in TT. But consider that in TT that weapons capable of delivering such high damage (Gauss, AC/20, LRM20, LRM15) are not as common as they are in MW:O, where nearly every mech is capable of mounting a 30 pinpoint alpha.

They were practically a replacement on every AC carrying Mech on most tables I Played on.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 October 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

So lets say that same Shadowhawk rounds a corner at 650m. And those two Warhammers are just firing their PPC's.

In MW:O, the Shadowhawk would melt.

Whereas in TT can you tell me the 4 PPC's per round would all hit CT? I'm pretty sure you'd be lucky if half the shots hit CT. And once again that would take 20 seconds instead of 4 seconds.

You know what, don't bother answering my question. If you think the way the game plays is fine now you are crazy.

This game does not feel right.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 24 October 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[Fut]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

After 30 years of gaming those numbers are the feel! The rate of fire doesn't change if you think about it. Every to hit dice roll is the same as one cycle of MW:O shooting. So rate of rire isn't any different Its still 15:30 points of damage per shot. The Position of the Moon only affects your hand in Dragon Poker, not Here!

Most of that comment was just me being facetious.
I still don't think you're focusing on "the feel" of the game though, despite what you claim.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yes. With targeting computer and called shots. I could also call 5 Clan large pulse lasers into a Mechs center torso 50 damage pin point.

Oh, you mean the targeting computer that made it harder to hit your opponent if you tried to call your shot?
Aiming your Gauss specifically at (the previously mentioned) damaged RT meant you had a +3 to your 2D6 roll.
You must have very, very good luck if you were able to place your shots as easily as you're trying to make it seem.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 October 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

That is 2 Warhammers sir I didn't think you would miss that. So 32 Heat per WHammer. 16 double sinks thanks to removing the SRM6... That would be plenty for that arsenal You would agree?

Sorry, sorry.
I didn't realize that you were trying to compare a single Mech in MWO to multiple Mechs in TT... Guess I didn't notice the 's' on your Warhammers comment.

Yes, 16 Double Heat Sinks would be the perfect amount for 2 PPCs and 4 MLs. Although, 16 Doubles is starting to take up a lot of internal space... Which is interesting considering that targeting computer you mentioned.

Assuming you used a Clan Targeting computer:
Your computer came in at a whopping 4 tonnes and took up 4 crit slots (would be 5t and 5 slots if IS). that's a substantial amount of space/weight (5% of your Mech). Supposes it's worth it though, if this awesome-o computer allowed you to reliably place your shots (despite the fact that it became more difficult to hit when calling shots, as I mentioned above).

Alright, so your Warhammers were clearly customized to perfection.
What kind of engine and armor did you have on those things?

EDIT:

Just to bring things back around to my original point.
Pin-Point accuracy and no consequences for High Heat are the reasons why MWO has an Alpha-Only mentality. This mentality breaks the spirit and feel of the game.

Edited by Fut, 24 October 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Razuko]

RNG is garbage in any game. Keep that **** away from here. Precision is a good thing, it separates the skilled from the lucky. There are far less alpha strikers out there now than a few months ago. The only simple system high alpha builds still out there are the boom jager or dual gauss but they have their drawbacks and aren't nearly as destructive as they use to be. My 3F has a possible 78 alpha but doing so is extremely heat inefficient and detrimental to the DPS it can pump out. All of my mechs that have hardpoints for 3+ different weapon systems get used. They consistently get decent-to-high damage and several kills so this hooplah about a non balanced non well rounded 2 system alpha builds being superior is just nonsense. You don't need to fire everything at the same time to cut off components. You just need good aim.

12v12 competitive is a different beast all together. They're obviously going to min/max and go for that kill shot. But guess what? so are the other 8-12 people that are focusing you. Even if they were all limited to 1 ppc each, you still die... What the game needs more than anything is weight restrictions. Force people to play in lighter, faster, more maneuverable mechs and the way matches play out will change dramatically. As it stands right now everyone just want's to be billybadass and stomp around in an assault thinking they're impervious and QQ about pin point accuracy when they get trained on by half the enemy team. News flash geniuses, you're the size of a house... not exactly hard to hit! Anyone QQing about weapons meta while assault mechs make up 85%(guessing) of the matches is just silly. The real meta is tonnage.

zomg splat cat
zomg 6ppc stalker
zomg boom jager
zomg dual gauss
zomg 2ppc+gauss

Y'all just bitching for the sake of bitching anymore...

[Dudeman3k]

Lightfoot, on 24 October 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

What I am saying is the random hit roll in Battletech is to use dice to simulate damage spread on a moving Mech. In a Mech simulation like MWO it's up to the players to move the Mech to spread the damage, not have it done for them.

- No, In BT you had a "Movement modifier" penalty and a "to-Hit'. The movement replicates the "movement modifiers" but does nothing for the multiple weapons "to-Hit". If moving a mech is to represent the "to-hit", an alpha shouldn't hit with all its weapons, so again, how do you fix this? multiple cross hairs.

[Dudeman3k]

Lightfoot, on 24 October 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

And you know, we already have two aim-point reticles and the three weapon types all do damage in different patterns. Energy goes straight, Ballistics drop, Missiles do area damage. So there is no pinpoint with mixed weapon types although the Ballistic drop is minimal. Perhaps you could get them to remove arm-lock.

- Imagine this. replace all those missles with PPc's and ACs.... so you have no missles. Now you reduced the amount of aim function, and gained a Higher alpha in the proceess.. you'll see that in matches now. Unless it's an LRM boat or SSRM user. chances are, they wont be sporting any missles. And the answer is to reduce multiple weapon systems in favor of a pin-point alpha.

Your argument would be sound, IF people actually used a balanced build.

[Dudeman3k]

Lightfoot, on 24 October 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I think literal de-convergence of each weapon as a mechanic would make MWO very arcade-like instead of simulating a real mech. If you look at armored vehicles of today they all have at least limited ability to move all their weapons to aim at specific points in a cone of fire so aimed weapons will always be vital to any game calling itself a Simulation. Now you could add more weapons that spew damage in a cone pattern, but you would just be duplicating LBX's and SRMs.

Wait, what?? de-covergence of each weapon would make MWO very arcade-like instead of simulating a real mech??? seriously?!?! HAHAHAHA!!!! Right now, MWO feels very arcade like. Round one, fight, rinse, repeat. All weapons fire like it were coming out of a single barrel of a gun like in COD. And the less complicated, the better.

no... with deconvergence this game will truly turn into a sim. When was the last time You played a sim and said "hey, I wish this was simpler".... never.

And I'm saying multiple cross hairs, not cone of fire.... lol, I'm starting to think you didn't even read anything.

[Psikez]

Dudeman3k, on 24 October 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

All weapons fire like it were coming out of a single barrel of a gun like in COD. A

Oh **** he used the COD diss, THREAD JUST GOT REAL

[Dudeman3k]

Razuko, on 24 October 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

RNG is garbage in any game. Keep that **** away from here. Precision is a good thing, it separates the skilled from the lucky. There are far less alpha strikers out there now than a few months ago. The only simple system high alpha builds still out there are the boom jager or dual gauss but they have their drawbacks and aren't nearly as destructive as they use to be. My 3F has a possible 78 alpha but doing so is extremely heat inefficient and detrimental to the DPS it can pump out. All of my mechs that have hardpoints for 3+ different weapon systems get used. They consistently get decent-to-high damage and several kills so this hooplah about a non balanced non well rounded 2 system alpha builds being superior is just nonsense. You don't need to fire everything at the same time to cut off components. You just need good aim.

12v12 competitive is a different beast all together. They're obviously going to min/max and go for that kill shot. But guess what? so are the other 8-12 people that are focusing you. Even if they were all limited to 1 ppc each, you still die... What the game needs more than anything is weight restrictions. Force people to play in lighter, faster, more maneuverable mechs and the way matches play out will change dramatically. As it stands right now everyone just want's to be billybadass and stomp around in an assault thinking they're impervious and QQ about pin point accuracy when they get trained on by half the enemy team. News flash geniuses, you're the size of a house... not exactly hard to hit! Anyone QQing about weapons meta while assault mechs make up 85%(guessing) of the matches is just silly. The real meta is tonnage.

zomg splat cat
zomg 6ppc stalker
zomg boom jager
zomg dual gauss
zomg 2ppc+gauss

Y'all just bitching for the sake of bitching anymore...

lol, hahahaha. wow. PGI, is this your target audience??? really?

[Joseph Mallan]

Fut, on 24 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Most of that comment was just me being facetious.
I still don't think you're focusing on "the feel" of the game though, despite what you claim.



Oh, you mean the targeting computer that made it harder to hit your opponent if you tried to call your shot?
Aiming your Gauss specifically at (the previously mentioned) damaged RT meant you had a +3 to your 2D6 roll.
You must have very, very good luck if you were able to place your shots as easily as you're trying to make it seem.

You didn't ask How it could be done just that it could be done. Stop changing the finish line What about having a 1-2 Gunner with Gauss Specialization (1Gunner, Walk+1 Medium range +2 your movement +3 Called +3 WeapSpec-1=8. 4 Large Pulse lasers same stack down to a 6 to hit. That's like having a 80 pin point alpha in MW:O.

Quote

Sorry, sorry.

I didn't realize that you were trying to compare a single Mech in MWO to multiple Mechs in TT... Guess I didn't notice the 's' on your Warhammers comment.

Thats cool.

Quote

Yes, 16 Double Heat Sinks would be the perfect amount for 2 PPCs and 4 MLs. Although, 16 Doubles is starting to take up a lot of internal space... Which is interesting considering that targeting computer you mentioned.

Not on a Warhammer I didn't, But 160 damage in 2 turns would strip the full armor off a SHawk, and since 6-8 are the most common rolls, guess what gets the lions share?

Quote

Assuming you used a Clan Targeting computer:

Your computer came in at a whopping 4 tonnes and took up 4 crit slots (would be 5t and 5 slots if IS). that's a substantial amount of space/weight (5% of your Mech). Supposes it's worth it though, if this awesome-o computer allowed you to reliably place your shots (despite the fact that it became more difficult to hit when calling shots, as I mentioned above).
Alright, so your Warhammers were clearly customized to perfection.
What kind of engine and armor did you have on those things?

Countered with the Weapon Specialization Rules, and 160 damage in 2 turns. Which equals 320 damage in MW:O... Or over half an MW:O Atlas in 2 salvos
EDIT:

Quote

Just to bring things back around to my original point.

Pin-Point accuracy and no consequences for High Heat are the reasons why MWO has an Alpha-Only mentality. This mentality breaks the spirit and feel of the game.

And just an FYI, I have been designing My Mechs for over 25 years to be able to Full Alpha or range specific Alpha. So I have been playing High Alpha Longer than than MW:O has been here AND before many of us were even born!

Yes Pin Point Alpha is a problem but with double armor Our PPA are no more powerful than some single weapons were on TT. 30 damage MW:O=15 On TT. So the equivalent of a single TT Gauss hit is to much for video gamers???

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[AC]

AC, on 21 October 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with the accuracy, except for maybe arm lock should never have been introduced. The issue is the generic mech slots. When you can swap a machine gun for an AC20... that is a fundamental game flaw. This is the sole reason why high alpha builds exist. We can put high alpha weapons where ever we want and on every chassis without limitation.

Dudeman3k, on 21 October 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

again, prime example why pin-point is the issue.

say You did replace the MG's for AC20's (on the K2) and alpha. witha working convergence those two 20's will only deal 20 damage to different components, and not the 40 it does now. The issue isn't "what" you can put on your mech, it's "It doesnt matter what you put on your mech and where, because it will hit the same place no matter what".

Let the K'2 have its AC20's. 20 damage here and 20 damage there is fine, but to earn that 40 point damage needs to be skillfully earned.

I think you missed my point. The K2 should not be able to carry 2 AC20's. 2 MG is its stock form. I could get behind 2 AC2 and maybe 2 AC5, but anything larger is rediculous. The mech looses the flavor it was suppose to have in battletech. This mech was a feared heavy because it had 2PPC. This is the appropriate amount of firepower for a mech of its size. The fact that stock mech are garbage is an indication that the generic slot system allows too much freedom.

[Joseph Mallan]

AC, on 25 October 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

I think you missed my point. The K2 should not be able to carry 2 AC20's. 2 MG is its stock form. I could get behind 2 AC2 and maybe 2 AC5, but anything larger is rediculous. The mech looses the flavor it was suppose to have in battletech. This mech was a feared heavy because it had 2PPC. This is the appropriate amount of firepower for a mech of its size. The fact that stock mech are garbage is an indication that the generic slot system allows too much freedom.

I understand what you are saying but If I pull off the mass and there is slots enough to do it, there is nothing wrong with changing the build. If you are paying for it its yours to mod (within the rules). Now if you are piloting a House owned Mech the House Mods the ride not the warrior.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[Magna Canus]

I can immagine people sitting there with 4 or 5 different weapons with the same number of cross-hairs. By the time you are done aiming and firing your first couple the ones that you have fired have already recycled, so why not just boat weapons with a shorter recycle rate to get fewer cross-hairs? Or multiple similar weapons in slots close enough to eachother that it does not matter at certain distances how many cross-hairs you have? That will be the meta. I think you also fail to realise that you can have 20 cross-hair and if they are not all on the borders of the screen that guy can get in your face and alpha you all the same. People will find a way around the new "issue" and keep doing what they did before.

Reduce the heat threshold to 30? Low heat Ballistics will be the meta even more than now and lasers will all but die out.

Take away customization and force "varied loadouts"? Adding that now will just drive players away that came for that feature and to be honest I dont think MWO can stand to loose any more players at the moment. Maybe setting the number of slots a hardpoint can hold would help a bit, but people will find a meta way around that as well.

These varied loadouts (I assume example B in the OP) with ML + Missiles + AC + streaks look like a jack of all trades that can do a bit of everything but nothing to excellence. That seems to work against role warfare (scout, LRM platform, brawler, etc.) for one and there really is no wonder why it would do worse. In your words it has no punch because it wants to fill all roles at once.

Lasers really do have a place, though granted less so in "competative play"; no minimum range (bonus over PPC), instant travel time (bonus over AC + PPC), and for those what are not excellent shots the ability to strafe a laser and get some damage instead of none is a real boon.

Yes it is nice to have a game where parts are flying off everywhere and I see them often enough, but you can't have that every time you play especially when you are playing with people who just want the kill/win etc. If that's what you need try playing Mechwarrior 1P for a while and just shoot off arms and legs because I seriously doubt any dev is going to read this thread and think its the best thing since sliced bread.

The noted "issues" in the OP are irrelevant right now anyway, we need more content in the form of campaigns, maps, etc. because it seems like people are nit-picking out of boredome these days.

[Vodrin Thales]

I think what many are saying here is that under the current rule set and weapon setup it is far too easy to put heavy damage on one panel of a target mech. There have been a great many solutions proposed on this forum for solving this issue, from cone of fire/conversion changes to hardpoint restrictions.

Both of those categories have been, to one degree or another, shot down by PGI. Most of the conversion solutions because PGI seems concerned about the technical aspects of implementing it, and the hardpoint restrictions because PGI feels one of the most attractive features of the game is the near unlimited ability to customize mechs.

Knowing this I have a different suggestion that could achieve the same thing while only modifying how some weapons work. Hear are my suggestions:

1. For autocannons make each triggering of the weapon a type of burst. The AC10 and 20 would fire once per second with the 20 round doing 5 damage and the 10 doing 4 damage per shot. AC5 would fire once per 0.75 seconds with 2.5 damage per shot, and AC2's would remain exactly as they are. Shots per ton of ammo would be adjusted so that damage per ton remains constant compared to current values. This maintains the current DPS for AC's while making it much harder to focus damage on one panel of the target mech.

2. Ultra autocannons would fire at exactly twice the rate of their standard cousins, but have an additional barrel heat bar that goes up while the weapon is continuously fired. After about 4-5 seconds heat bar would max and the weapon jams. Heat then decays when the weapon is not being fired, and the jam clears when heat is fully dissipated. This is a variation of the system from MWLL.

3. Gauss rifles retain the current charge up mechanic, but have their cooldown increased to 5 seconds to compensate for the fact they will be the one remaining weapon with a large pinpoint hit.

4. PPC/ERPPC will now deliver their damage to an area of the target mech not one panel. They will do 5 damage to the panel hit and 2.5 damage to two adjacent panels determined randomly. A visual effect can be incorporated with electricity spreading over the target mech when hit.

5. Standard lasers, SRM's, and LRM's remain unchanged.

6. SSRM's get a separate lock on reticle that no longer benefits from TAG or Artemis.

7. Pulse lasers get greatly shortened pulse duration, perhaps half of the current duration. This makes them one of the easiest weapons to do pinpoint weapon damage with and offsets their other well documented deficiencies.

And that should do it. It accomplishes several things in one fell swoop. Because weapons are better balanced and all weapons are less capable of pinpoint kills it makes hardpoint restrictions less needed, and because weapons don't do massive damage in one shot it lessens the need for a "convergence fix", all while improving the ability of mechs to survive.

Opinions?

[AC]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 October 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying but If I pull off the mass and there is slots enough to do it, there is nothing wrong with changing the build. If you are paying for it its yours to mod (within the rules). Now if you are piloting a House owned Mech the House Mods the ride not the warrior.

But some of these mods weren't even possible in battletech. If you read the lore on the Clint (for example), it had an AC10 in the arm initially, but firing it caused structural failure so the clint was released with an AC5 in the arm. I know this a video game of stompy robots, but sometimes the background lore was used to cover glaring balance issues. One of them being free modification of mechs.

Could you imagine a table top game where everyone ran around with LPL, targeting computers, DHS, and endo? It would be no fun. And that is where MWO is now.... The generic slots are the root cuase of what everyone complains about. Add in some limitations and all our problems go away.

High alphas - Solved
Cheese of the week builds - Solved
Weapons balance - Solved (Right now PGI doesn't balance weapons, they balance cheese builds that can take those weapons.)
Ghost Heat - Gone
Gauss Delay - Gone


None of it would be needed.

[Joseph Mallan]

AC, on 25 October 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

But some of these mods weren't even possible in battletech. If you read the lore on the Clint (for example), it had an AC10 in the arm initially, but firing it caused structural failure so the clint was released with an AC5 in the arm. I know this a video game of stompy robots, but sometimes the background lore was used to cover glaring balance issues. One of them being free modification of mechs. Could you imagine a table top game where everyone ran around with LPL, targeting computers, DHS, and endo? It would be no fun. And that is where MWO is now.... The generic slots are the root cuase of what everyone complains about. Add in some limitations and all our problems go away. High alphas - Solved Cheese of the week builds - Solved Weapons balance - Solved (Right now PGI doesn't balance weapons, they balance cheese builds that can take those weapons.) Ghost Heat - Gone Gauss Delay - Gone None of it would be needed.

There is a limit to what I will let fluff dictate, and in some instances, I can over look some builds cause There was the Galahad, a 60 ton Mech with twin Gauss, so I suspend disbelief and realize it is a make do build. The Clint couldn't use an AC10 But the Wolf Trap did it fine

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 October 2013 - 08:35 AM.