Jump to content

How Is This Good Game Design?


134 replies to this topic

#101 Noth

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 4,762 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostUmbra8, on 20 October 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:


I actually prefer how the game was balanced (from a mechanics perspective) prior to the introduction of ECM. Most of the steps forward have been in hit detection, state rewind and critical bugs (SRM splash madness), but from the standpoint of weapon mechanics and function, we're worse off now.

One example I can think of off the top of my head was when they changed how streaks worked. It used to be that they did not auto-hit, but curved up to a certain turn limit in the direction of your target but could still miss if your aim was bad or the targets manoeuvrability was superior. I though that was a much more elegant approach that required a higher skill investment than the current model. I can't remember reading why it was changed.


There are balance decision that I disagree with and I still think ECM was implemented wrong and I like the streaks that could miss, but overall, the balance is better than it has been.

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:


With the ridiculously bad HSR there has been an algae bloom of light mechs the last two months. I've switched to Trolltaro's to deal with it and to get the nice K/D boost. That being said, you wouldn't see the switch to lights if there wasn't a reason, and a big part of that reason is HSR.


I've only seen an influx of lights with the Phoenix Package (so much locust hype). I still don't have an issue hitting them.

#102 Rhent

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,045 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostNoth, on 20 October 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:


There are balance decision that I disagree with and I still think ECM was implemented wrong and I like the streaks that could miss, but overall, the balance is better than it has been.



I've only seen an influx of lights with the Phoenix Package (so much locust hype). I still don't have an issue hitting them.


I've seen PPC and AC/10 rounds hit lights and not register, everyone has. The DEV's have stated there is problems with hits registering on lights last month and they said its going to take them a while to fix it. But I'm glad you are magic and aren't seeing what the rest of the community are seeing.

#103 Ghogiel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • 6,852 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:


I've seen PPC and AC/10 rounds hit lights and not register, everyone has. The DEV's have stated there is problems with hits registering on lights last month and they said its going to take them a while to fix it. But I'm glad you are magic and aren't seeing what the rest of the community are seeing.

I have a lot of trouble with hit detection. Have videos to demonstrate it. Doesn't make lights OP lol.

#104 Rhent

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,045 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I have a lot of trouble with hit detection. Have videos to demonstrate it. Doesn't make lights OP lol.


There was a better DEV post discussing hit detection and stating specifically that is what is contributing to Spiders survivability but can't find it. The reason why HSR is an issue for lights is that worse the HSR the more that smaller and fast moving mechs are going to benefit from it. If HSR was working like it did 4 months ago, you would NOT see the bloom of light mechs that you are seeing for the last 2 months.

http://mwomercs.com/...4-known-issues/
We are rolling back some networking code fixes. This will address many of the hit box issues currently in the live environment. The rollback does not fix the problem entirely, and we are working hard on improving the overall experience vs performance. This is a long term engineering task and a top priority internally.


http://mwomercs.com/...chnical-update/
We recognize some issues such as the recent issue some users have experienced with Avast, and the hit registration issue have slipped through. As you can see we continue to work to improve our process to ensure that isn't the case and these issues remain high priority to address along with the current investigation into 12 vs. 12 performance on live.

#105 Ghogiel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • 6,852 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:


There was a better DEV post discussing hit detection and stating specifically that is what is contributing to Spiders survivability but can't find it. The reason why HSR is an issue for lights is that worse the HSR the more that smaller and fast moving mechs are going to benefit from it. If HSR was working like it did 4 months ago, you would NOT see the bloom of light mechs that you are seeing for the last 2 months.

http://mwomercs.com/...4-known-issues/
We are rolling back some networking code fixes. This will address many of the hit box issues currently in the live environment. The rollback does not fix the problem entirely, and we are working hard on improving the overall experience vs performance. This is a long term engineering task and a top priority internally.

This is from closed beta over six months prior to HSR.


Quote

http://mwomercs.com/...chnical-update/
We recognize some issues such as the recent issue some users have experienced with Avast, and the hit registration issue have slipped through. As you can see we continue to work to improve our process to ensure that isn't the case and these issues remain high priority to address along with the current investigation into 12 vs. 12 performance on live.

I know there is hit detection issues. Doesn't make lights OP.

#106 Rhent

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,045 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

This is from closed beta over six months prior to HSR.



I know there is hit detection issues. Doesn't make lights OP.


What mech benefits greater from bad Hit Detection a 100 ton Atlas moving at 49 KPH or a 35 ton Raven moving at 150 KPH?

#107 Ghogiel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • 6,852 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:


What mech benefits greater from bad Hit Detection a 100 ton Atlas moving at 49 KPH or a 35 ton Raven moving at 150 KPH?

Even if it is the raven, ravens are a bad example because they are pretty good for hit detection for me, it still wouldn't make lights OP. Not even close.

#108 Rhent

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,045 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:07 PM

View PostGhogiel, on 20 October 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Even if it is the raven, ravens are a bad example because they are pretty good for hit detection for me, it still wouldn't make lights OP. Not even close.


HSR applies to all mechs. Lights benefit the most from it due to smaller hit boxes and that they run faster. I gave the Raven as an example. It could be any mech that is small and moves fast that are going to benefit from bad HSR the most.

#109 Ghogiel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • 6,852 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:


HSR applies to all mechs. Lights benefit the most from it due to smaller hit boxes and that they run faster. I gave the Raven as an example. It could be any mech that is small and moves fast that are going to benefit from bad HSR the most.

aaaaaaannnnnd it still doesn't make lights OP even if that was true.

YMMV

#110 IceLom

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:41 PM

This whole thread is garbage.. in my opinion.

Anyways your initial example makes no sense and has nothing to do with anything, you realize that now and are trying to turn the thread into some kind of whine thread about other gameplay balance issues.

HSR needs improvement, but i have defiantly noticed it getting better and better over the past few months so that's good!

I like ghost heat. I hated ghost heat at first but after a few months with it i understand how it works and how it benefits the game, it encourages more balanced builds but does not force them like a stricter hard point system does. I want someone to be able to build a 6x LL build but i want them to have to use some skill to play it (weapons groups none alphaing, and only alphaing at the right moment) Ghost heat is a fantastic balancing mechanic and i tip my hates to pgi for not only thinking of it but sticking to there guns, its the correct decision.

Weapon convergence, i have no real opinion on this... i like to shoot where i aim but i also don't really like getting cored in one shot. However 9/10 matches (could be even less then that) i die in end with most of my mech getting thrashed before loosing a CT or a side torso with an XL... so at the end of the day i probably don't think its a problem. I might not be upset if some form was added to the game but i don't really feel its needed.

From what i can see on the forums, most of the real whining stems from 2 things
1. A player dies to some form of game play or weapon often, and instead of changing or evolving there playstyle to deal with it they want the game changed.
2. There is something in the game that they dont feel is BT like or its not the way they wanted the game to be regardless of how it actually effects the game (OP's 2x ppc jenner is an example) so they complain and try and make up reasons why it needs ot be changed.

Don't get me wrong there are valid complaints people make, but they get drowned out be the above 2 categories of people and its a shame because i don't think pgi really has time to dig through the whiny peoples posts to get to actual complaints or opinions that i believe have merit. But at the end of the day this whole post was just my opinion and maybe i am wrong... but at least i have a game i enjoy and feel development is going in the right direction ,go me!

#111 GalaxyBluestar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,748 posts
  • Location...

Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:02 AM

View PostIceLom, on 20 October 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

1} HSR needs improvement, but i have defiantly noticed it getting better and better over the past few months so that's good!

2} I like ghost heat. I hated ghost heat at first but after a few months with it i understand how it works and how it benefits the game, it encourages more balanced builds but does not force them like a stricter hard point system does. I want someone to be able to build a 6x LL build but i want them to have to use some skill to play it (weapons groups none alphaing, and only alphaing at the right moment) Ghost heat is a fantastic balancing mechanic and i tip my hates to pgi for not only thinking of it but sticking to there guns, its the correct decision.

3} Weapon convergence, i have no real opinion on this... i like to shoot where i aim but i also don't really like getting cored in one shot. However 9/10 matches (could be even less then that) i die in end with most of my mech getting thrashed before loosing a CT or a side torso with an XL... so at the end of the day i probably don't think its a problem. I might not be upset if some form was added to the game but i don't really feel its needed.



1} and i remember when HSR was first introduced and worked. now it might as well not be there for a aus 250+ pinger, it's back to 2012 again seeing sparks fly off of mechs with a white reticule all the time.

2} so you like everyone toting ac's with the odd laser and nothing else. you see the odd lurmer or masichist like me still pushing a pur laser boat 5LL stalker, believe me ou're gimping yourself and your team with these mechs. good KDR is with fastet most effiecient weapons. LL are long in the CD and can only be fired in groups twice or chain fired which means they take even longer to lay pain. ac's don't have heat to stop them and are relitively fast so they can deal twice as more twice as fast, there's no other direct fire weapon that can match it now. lasers are not fast enough to compensate for the slow speed of an assault, assault laser boats can't lay enough pain to compensate for the cool down times. that's why lights make up most of the laser mechs these days. they can get far away and fast enough out of trouble to cool down. in general laser boats have less range, hitscan instead of direct delivery and poor critting compared to ac's and now their ammo outlasts the heat cappacity so you can deal 2x as much damage over time and laugh as the laser boat has no way of cooling so therefore has run out of ammo after 2 salvos whilst you're on your 5th and in his hands in the air face. that's why energy mechs have lower KDR's they can't rip armour fast enough now with GH so ballistics mechs are collecting on energy boats work if the energy mech have been able to. have you not noticed every boy and his granny using duo ac5's ac10 ac20s or triple ac2's or hero phract ac10x3's? have you noticed there's hardly a laser centric stalker let alone an awesome? awesomes were hard dealt enough now they're almost a waste of code, whilst triple ac mechs can alpha spam to the cows come home. the weapon equipment balance was best just before ECM and maybe sometime after the 2nd lermpocolypse although i missed lerms everything else seemed to be just about right. then HSR got fixed and with highlander came PPC fest and it all went wrong again. now the devs have taken drastic measures {making up their own arbitary rules TT just can't be done... well MW2, 3 and 4.... and LL got closer but they don't matter anymore}

3} and so you play with people who can't shoot, many good players can core a ct in about 3-5 shots {loadout pending} you can groin shot to bypass torso twisting and most people are going for headshots so CT is just a secondary target that gets destroyed before enough headshots are made. still go on about how the game is wonderfully balanced arounds laser lights ac-centric heavys and assault duo builds {2xac5 2xppc or LL} seriously diversity for loadouts have just switched to another metric, the same 5-10 builds out of a possible 100+ are most seen in match, as usual.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 October 2013 - 04:11 AM.


#112 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:07 AM

View PostRhent, on 20 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

This is an example of the poor system the developers put on people:
2 PPC Jenner + 1 SL + 10 DHS + 97% armor moves at 124 KPH

You have a ridiculously microscopic high speed sniper that has the long range fire power of most heavies in the game now.

<sarcasm>Thank GOD the developers did not put in hard point limitations in the game. Best decision they've made to date.</sarcasm>

Fixed it for you. If you are going to build it, build it right... with symmetry!

#113 Sybreed

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,199 posts
  • LocationQuebec

Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:24 AM

View PostAdiuvo, on 20 October 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Yeah, it does. By completely removing sniping from the game.

Nope, the awesome, the k2, the jagermech all disagree. You actually gave them a use other than gauss boating.

#114 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,623 posts

Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:27 AM

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adder_(Puma)
How is this good game design?

#115 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:30 AM

View PostCurccu, on 21 October 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adder_(Puma)
How is this good game design?

Oh its not. Not in MWO. Not even in TT when matched vs Heavys and Assaults

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 October 2013 - 04:30 AM.


#116 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostCurccu, on 21 October 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Adder_(Puma)
How is this good game design?

A Gauss and ER PPC will remove a arm or Leg. It only has 11 double Sinks so is quite hot. You Don't want to run twin ERPPCs on 22 sinks, you just don't.

#117 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,623 posts

Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:39 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 21 October 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

A Gauss and ER PPC will remove a arm or Leg. It only has 11 double Sinks so is quite hot. You Don't want to run twin ERPPCs on 22 sinks, you just don't.

Point was that almost identical mech that OP was QQing about exist even in TT...

#118 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostCurccu, on 21 October 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Point was that almost identical mech that OP was QQing about exist even in TT...

The one on TT is 50% more powerful!

#119 Pigger

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 22 posts
  • LocationOntario, Canada

Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

Kind of seems like most people missed the point. From what little I do know of Battletech, what if in the distant future they added this into the game. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander I quite enjoyed this thing in MW4, but I kinda wonder what point it would have in MWO. Especially if they add the Hollander II BZK-F5. What purpose would a medium, whose only advantage is that he can mount a gauss, be? I mean maybe, depending on the hard points it's given, it could have a use. My point is that the Mechs here seem to have no personality, no role. Which means as they add more and more Mechs, less and less will actually be worth something. We already have that happening to a certain degree with the locust. Lots of people have fun with it sure, but it doesn't actually serve any purpose. There is nothing a locust can do that one of the other lights can't do better (twin AMS aside.) Giving hardpoint restrictions of some kind might actually create niche mechs. If everyone is dead set on the customizability of their favorite toys, then perhaps just added small bonus to specific weapons types or combinations. The swayback gets the number of lasers allowed, before ghost heat starts, increased. The trebuchet gets like a .5% bonus to damage per 100m the target is away from it. (don't take those values as law I'm terrible at maths and such things it's just an example.) Just small encouragements to make each Mech a tiny bit better in it's intended role.

Edited by Pigger, 21 October 2013 - 10:19 AM.


#120 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:38 AM

Hollander is already here!





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users